Ki 48 II loadoutwrong in stock and babe light

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pharmy
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Ki 48 II loadoutwrong in stock and babe light

Post by pharmy »

I think the Lily IIb and IIc divebombers loadout has been reduced wrongly in newer updates. In my old ongoing RA 3.4.2 game it is still 4 x100

http://japaneseaircraft.devhub.com/blog ... -48-redux/
The principal differences between the Ki.48-I and -II were to be found in the engines, defensive armament and armour protection. .......but the additional power permitted an increase in bomb load to 1,760 lb. in maximum loaded condition. Whereas the Type 99 Model 2a (Ki.48-IIa) was built as a level bomber, the Model 2b (Ki.48-IIb) was fitted with dive brakes under each wing, and was capable of dive-bombing attacks up to an angle of sixty degrees. Late production machines of this type featured a dorsal fin extension. The Model 2c (Ki.48-IIc) was essentially similar to the Model 2b apart from the addition of a single 12.7-mm.
gun to the defensive armament.

Alternative bomb loads comprised six 110-lb. bombs or four 220-lb. bombs, and empty and maximum loaded weights were 10,031 lb. and 14,881 lb. Performance included a maximum speed of 314 m.p.h. at 18,372 ft., the ability to climb to 16,400 ft. at maximum loaded weight in 9 min. 56 sec., a maximum ceiling of 32,800 ft., and a maximum range of 1,490 miles.

Attached Francillon seems to support same
http://www.pilotfriend.com/photo_albums ... 20Lily.htm


Im trying to acquire the following as well as it is referred to a lot. Bueschel, Richard M. Kawasaki Ki.48-I/II Sokei in Japanese Army Air Force-CNAF & IPSF Service, Aircam No.32. Canterbury, Kent, UK: Osprey Publishing Ltd.,

It does seem that Kamikaze planes carried 800kgs worth of ordnance, but I cant really substantiate that
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Commander Stormwolf
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RE: Ki 48 II loadoutwrong in stock and babe light

Post by Commander Stormwolf »


Probably you are right,

but most players never build number of Ki-48 so they probably do not mind

and historically, if the IJAAF was allowed to use the D4Y as their dive bomber,
then kawasaki could have spent their time on better Ki-61 and Ki-64 variants instead
of the myriad of other projects that were clearly pointless (Ki-48 dive bomber included)
"No Enemy Survives Contact with the Plan" - Commander Stormwolf
pharmy
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RE: Ki 48 II loadoutwrong in stock and babe light

Post by pharmy »

Well but the tooling was there, it was an airframe developed pre-ww2, and useful in flakless/CAPless enviroments - how much does a DB add to bomb delivery accuracy on an avg dice roll?

Total production of Ki-48 IIa, IIb and IIc: 1,408 aircraft
Commander Stormwolf
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RE: Ki 48 II loadoutwrong in stock and babe light

Post by Commander Stormwolf »


DB does increase accuracy pretty well

Definietely a good army dive bomber would have been useful,
more so if they fought against the soviets instead of the USN

Lily was popular when it was up against the old generation of I-15 or I-16 fighters (it was faster than most of them)

While the navy sometimes suffered heavy losses of their G3Ms, the army for the most part had comfortable ground support capabilty against the chinese
and really the army bomber pilots are severely underrated in AE (they should be 80+, cmon 4 years of sorties, you will be pretty good at it)

The inline engine basically made that generation (Ki-48, SB-2, etc) obsolete, though that statement would be challenged by some designs (mosquito)

though i think kawasaki building more Toryu would have been useful (especially some destroyer models with better firepower and less fuel)

I would have cancelled the sonia, use the Ha-31 engines to build Toryu
Cancel the Lily and use the factory to build toryu, and the engines to build zeroes
Use the sonia factory to build Dinah (and those also use Ha-31)

Yep. I'm a fan of large numbers of a few types of (the best types) of airframes [:D]

My lillies normally are the first to go into the grinder
though it is a pretty cool idea, large 2-engine dive bombers (luftwaffe's dream)

if only they carried a big payload, then yes, they would be very useful

(maybe if they replaced some of that fuel with more ordnance?)


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btbw
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RE: Ki 48 II loadoutwrong in stock and babe light

Post by btbw »

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf


Probably you are right,

but most players never build number of Ki-48 so they probably do not mind

and historically, if the IJAAF was allowed to use the D4Y as their dive bomber,
then kawasaki could have spent their time on better Ki-61 and Ki-64 variants instead
of the myriad of other projects that were clearly pointless (Ki-48 dive bomber included)
D4Y was bad diver and took year of fixing his paper wings before can fly and dive.
Real problem for IJAAF was not lack of divers (which useful for blitz) but lack of bombload+defense of bombers. Only new Hiryu start solve this problem but lack of pilots and escort cut off their strength.
Dili
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RE: Ki 48 II loadoutwrong in stock and babe light

Post by Dili »

How much fuel with 1,760 lb of bombs? And how can 1760lb of bombs can be put in bomb bay?
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JeffroK
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RE: Ki 48 II loadoutwrong in stock and babe light

Post by JeffroK »

Max bombloads are a dangerous stat to work with, it does not signify a combat load, just what the aircraft can lift off the ground.

The B17G has a max bombload of 17,600lbs but the devs quite reasonably give it a load out of 4000lbs in AE.

(I can imagine the JFB outcry if the dreaded Allied heavy had its load quadrupled [:D] )
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oldman45
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RE: Ki 48 II loadoutwrong in stock and babe light

Post by oldman45 »

Shame we don't have a shorter range band that would allow "heavy" loads to be carried. ie 6k in bombs but only fly 1/3 or 1/2 the range of a "normal" load. The B-17's and 24's could and did carry 6k when they were bombing targets in France instead of Germany.
el cid again
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RE: Ki 48 II loadoutwrong in stock and babe light

Post by el cid again »

The Ki-48 I should have a maximum game loadout of 8x 50 kg bombs
while both the Ki-48 Ia and b should have a loadout of 8x 100 kg bombs

and the b should indeed be defined as a dive bomber.

It is not a terrible plane, and there are numbers of units and replacements
at game start - so every player is going to use those. Due to production
numbers problems for Japanese medium bombers at first, production of
at least the Ki-48 I is probably a good idea.

This would be less necessary if the Ki-49 I was set to be in production at
the start - as it should be - but apparently isn't in stock. It was in low
initial rate of production and in squadron service in at least one unit on
8 December (Tokyo time). Unless this is done, the Japanese only better
bomber at start is the Ki-21 II - making the usefulness of more bombers
with a fair load/range combination than the other light bombers even more
attractive than it would be if the Ki-49 could be built.

Your observations are correct - and players who build the Ki-48 at first
probably are better off than those who don't. Still - the "cost" of two engines
makes it not very cost effective in game terms - and only its range makes
that price worthy of consideration. The range in game terms should be 11
hexes extended, 8 hexes normal (and 28 hexes transfer). The extended
range bomb load should be 6x 50 kg bombs for the I and 8x 50 kg bombs
for the II.

One reason for the unpopularity of the Ki-48 in stock is the size and number of
bombs and how bombs are defined as devices. If soft effect is defined as a
square root of weight function, which is how GP bombs work, it would be
more popular in terms of game effects.
el cid again
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RE: Ki 48 II loadoutwrong in stock and babe light

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Max bombloads are a dangerous stat to work with, it does not signify a combat load, just what the aircraft can lift off the ground.

The B17G has a max bombload of 17,600lbs but the devs quite reasonably give it a load out of 4000lbs in AE.

(I can imagine the JFB outcry if the dreaded Allied heavy had its load quadrupled [:D] )



Allied bombers have a maximum load much greater than normal load. AE does not have a maximum load at all - just a normal
load and an extended load. SOME Allied bombers are similar to Axis ones (see the Hudson for example) - where max load =
normal load in game terms. But for a B-17, the normal load should generally be 6,000 pounds (except in one case 5,000 pounds) -
the actual normal load. It is important to use real normal loads because normal range data is available for that. Note that in stock
and most mods Allied bombers do NOT get to carry their actual normal load to the actual normal load range. This is probably
deliberate because of how bombs are defined - an attempt to tone down soft effect of bigger bomb loads.
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RE: Ki 48 II loadoutwrong in stock and babe light

Post by FatR »

ORIGINAL: icepharmy

I think the Lily IIb and IIc divebombers loadout has been reduced wrongly in newer updates. In my old ongoing RA 3.4.2 game it is still 4 x100
As far as I can remember it wasn't reduced in stock - it is upped in RA. I did it because with just 2x100kg there is no possible reason to ever build Ki-48 divebombers. And I believe it is still not really enough to make them worthwhile, because skipboming has hit chances approximately similar to divebombing, can be done with any level bomber, lowers detection range and unlike dive bombers potential skip bombers aren't extra vulnerable to flak when attacking ground targets. 4x100kg payload might possibly make Ki-48 divebombers useful for rolling a lot of attacks against enemy ships and slowing them down for heavy hitters, with 2x100kg they are simply inferior in every way to Ki-49, Ki-67 and even Ki-21 in anti-shipping role. So I'm not sure why stock reduces KI-48s payload on divebomber versions.
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JWE
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RE: Ki 48 II loadoutwrong in stock and babe light

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: FatR
ORIGINAL: icepharmy
I think the Lily IIb and IIc divebombers loadout has been reduced wrongly in newer updates. In my old ongoing RA 3.4.2 game it is still 4 x100
As far as I can remember it wasn't reduced in stock - it is upped in RA. ...
Yes, that's correct. On Introduction Day, January 2008, the IIb and IIc had exactly the same loadout they have today in stock and, thus, BabesLite. Absolutely nothing has changed.
Dili
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RE: Ki 48 II loadoutwrong in stock and babe light

Post by Dili »

Ki-48 Ia and b should have a loadout of 8x 100 kg bombs

Where is the bomb bay space for 8x 100 kg bombs?
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RE: Ki 48 II loadoutwrong in stock and babe light

Post by dwg »

ORIGINAL: Dili
Ki-48 Ia and b should have a loadout of 8x 100 kg bombs

Where is the bomb bay space for 8x 100 kg bombs?

According to Japanese Special Attack Aircraft and Flying Bombs, 8x100Kg bombs is the loadout of the Kamikaze variant, Ki-48-II Otsu Kai, with all bombs in the forward fuselage and not the bomb-bay. It also notes that performance was so marginal with that bombload that all defensive armament had to be deleted, which rules it out as a normal load for any other variant.

Bombload given for other variants:
Ki-48-I Ko: 310Kg
Ki-48-I Otsu: 400Kg
Ki-48-II Ko, Hei, Tei: 500Kg
Ki-48-II Otsu: 1xKi-148 guided bomb (680Kg)

A couple of other books on my shelves repeat the 800Kg claim for the -II, while agreeing with figures for the -I, but that may be mistaken application of the -II Otsu Kai bombload to all -IIs, the reference to flight test details of the handling of the Ki-48-II Otsu Kai in Japanese Special Attack Aircraft seem to be a pretty convincing argument that 800kg could not be a normal bombload.
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RE: Ki 48 II loadoutwrong in stock and babe light

Post by pharmy »

ORIGINAL: FatR
ORIGINAL: icepharmy

I think the Lily IIb and IIc divebombers loadout has been reduced wrongly in newer updates. In my old ongoing RA 3.4.2 game it is still 4 x100
As far as I can remember it wasn't reduced in stock - it is upped in RA. I did it because with just 2x100kg there is no possible reason to ever build Ki-48 divebombers. And I believe it is still not really enough to make them worthwhile, because skipboming has hit chances approximately similar to divebombing, can be done with any level bomber, lowers detection range and unlike dive bombers potential skip bombers aren't extra vulnerable to flak when attacking ground targets. 4x100kg payload might possibly make Ki-48 divebombers useful for rolling a lot of attacks against enemy ships and slowing them down for heavy hitters, with 2x100kg they are simply inferior in every way to Ki-49, Ki-67 and even Ki-21 in anti-shipping role. So I'm not sure why stock reduces KI-48s payload on divebomber versions.

Thanks, I think it makes it a great AF and airsupport a/c. Using level bombers always felt wrong. By the way, to everyone saying max bombload, I am not talking about 800kgs, just half load 4x100. I'm not quite sure if 8x50 would fit, the proportions are not exactly half for the 50kg bomb. I can't find any information on the exact dimensions of the bomb bay (just this pic http://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=12329)


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pharmy
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RE: Ki 48 II loadoutwrong in stock and babe light

Post by pharmy »

ORIGINAL: dwg
ORIGINAL: Dili
Ki-48 Ia and b should have a loadout of 8x 100 kg bombs

Where is the bomb bay space for 8x 100 kg bombs?

According to Japanese Special Attack Aircraft and Flying Bombs, 8x100Kg bombs is the loadout of the Kamikaze variant, Ki-48-II Otsu Kai, with all bombs in the forward fuselage and not the bomb-bay. It also notes that performance was so marginal with that bombload that all defensive armament had to be deleted, which rules it out as a normal load for any other variant.

Bombload given for other variants:
Ki-48-I Ko: 310Kg
Ki-48-I Otsu: 400Kg
Ki-48-II Ko, Hei, Tei: 500Kg
Ki-48-II Otsu: 1xKi-148 guided bomb (680Kg)

A couple of other books on my shelves repeat the 800Kg claim for the -II, while agreeing with figures for the -I, but that may be mistaken application of the -II Otsu Kai bombload to all -IIs, the reference to flight test details of the handling of the Ki-48-II Otsu Kai in Japanese Special Attack Aircraft seem to be a pretty convincing argument that 800kg could not be a normal bombload.


Kamikaze Attacks of World War II: A Complete History of Japanese Suicide lists the type 80 800kg bomb Navy bomb but 111.5 inches long it does seem just a bit too long(2x100kg bombs = 53x2inches = 106 inches). Maybe...

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Dili
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Re: Ki 48 II loadoutwrong in stock and babe light

Post by Dili »

Manual for Ki 48 model 1 and 2 https://dl.ndl.go.jp/info:ndljp/pid/8815754

Bomb configurations : 4 presumably 100kg, 8(50kg?) and 24 (10kg?)
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Weights for i think Model 2 (page 274) as can be seen - from left to right

mission number
mission type = i am unable to translate
empty weight 4470kg
crew 70kg per person, as can be seen some mission request 4 other 5
fuel maximum 1680 litres= 1210kg
oil maximum 100 litres= 97kg
2 columns i don't know what is it
drop weapons: maximum 400kg bombs
7 columns i don't know (probably machine guns weights , ammunition, radio photo equipment, parachute, flares/float)
Total load weight.
Take off weight for the mission
Percentage of load weight.
Ki48_jpegOutput (1).jpg
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jiajia1
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Re: Ki 48 II loadoutwrong in stock and babe light

Post by jiajia1 »

try translate:
Configuraiton (normal I think, grey ones are for special)
100kg x 4
50kg x 8
15kg x 24

for dive bombing
100kg x 4 (all)
50kg x 6
15kg x 18
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jiajia1
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Re: Ki 48 II loadoutwrong in stock and babe light

Post by jiajia1 »

As early as 1938, IJA got many KI-30 Anns in the front which can dive bomb. But IJA refuse to dive bomb because:

1. IJN has already used this tactic. They will never be a follower of IJN! During the battle of Shanghai in 1937, it is IJN who is dive bombing Chinese.

2. Chinese did not have many AA weapons, they can drop to only hundreds meters high and slowly, so what is dive bombing for?

3. Pilots see themselves "nobles", they never will listen to infantry commanders. If they do when in good mood there is no radio communication nor guide group on the ground.
Dili
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Re: Ki 48 II loadoutwrong in stock and babe light

Post by Dili »

Thanks for translation and further information jiajia1
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