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RE: Manila liberated!!!

 
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RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/18/2013 7:13:19 PM   
CyrusSpitama


Posts: 190
Joined: 2/21/2011
From: Naw'lins, Luzianna
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Wanted to say howdy in your AAR and wish you good luck with your game, despite it being an *enemy* AAR

I have followed yours and Obvert's AAR somewhat seeking tips for grand strategy and counter strategies.

_____________________________

"I'm sure the universe is full of intelligent life. It's just been too intelligent to come here." - Arthur C. Clarke

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 2731
RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/18/2013 7:21:34 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 5210
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

It may be my aging memory, but I don't recall any golden era of the past where lots of Japan players chose PDU OFF. There have been a few AAR games that way, but they spent, the ones I read at least, a lot of time bewailing the choice and how they were flying Nates in 1945. I suspect any Japan player who agrees in the present era of the game's history is going to want stiff concessions in return.


Perhaps you are right. But fcharton seems to do well so far. They arnīt that far along though. But consider this: Not having the need to spend vast amounts on resources on changing factories and doing lots of R&D and pumping out 1500 Fighters per month and all that PDU ON brings...What could be done with all those resources instead? This Iīm really curious on. Could all those saved resources (HI, supply and everything else) be used to stiffen Japanese resistance in other areas.

I refuse to believe the game is "unplayable" with PDU OFF. Iīm still convinced this is how the game is meant to be played and would do away with a lot of the silliness and unbalancing we see in the game.


(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 2732
RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/18/2013 7:31:40 PM   
CyrusSpitama


Posts: 190
Joined: 2/21/2011
From: Naw'lins, Luzianna
Status: offline
If I may comment on this *balance* issues. The game is meant to be enjoyed by two players, yes? The only true way to balance this would be for both sides to have equal assets and abilities. Because of the nature of the game and setup, this is impossible to acheive. To acheive some semblance of balance, concessions must be made by both parties, with the stronger party giving more concessions away. I am pretty sure the record will show that Japan has very little chance of surviving once the game hits '44 (assuming a competent Allied player). It seems to me, this means Japan would receive a few more concessions than the Allies receive.

The major drawback to the current setup for the game is the Allies and Japan have extremely divergent assets and abilities. You must admit, by and large, the later Allied units (of all types) are far superior to anything Japan can field. PDU-OFF means you are further hampering Japan and their long term survival and as a consequence, their enjoyment of the game. PDU-ON should not ( and I do not think it does) give Japan a decisive edge over the Allied. It simply allows Japan to field almost comparable assets vs. the Allied. I saw your issues with the plane pools and it is likely that is one issue that could possibly be addressed via mods.

_____________________________

"I'm sure the universe is full of intelligent life. It's just been too intelligent to come here." - Arthur C. Clarke

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 2733
RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/18/2013 7:31:53 PM   
Olorin


Posts: 633
Joined: 4/22/2008
From: Greece
Status: online
Don't worry, soon you will have the bomb. Maybe that will satisfy your appetites. But then I suspect we will hear about how it didn't kill as many as it was "supposed to" and that the game is unbalanced in that respect and a fix must be applied asap.

< Message edited by Olorin -- 11/18/2013 8:32:40 PM >


_____________________________

"Drang nach Osten"
--A TOAWIII AAR--

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 2734
RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/18/2013 7:42:30 PM   
Encircled


Posts: 1033
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
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Think we've been searching for a fix for the bomb for about sixty years

Don't want to highjack the AAR, but with PDU on, does that mean you can switch any planes to any squadrons?

(in reply to Olorin)
Post #: 2735
RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/18/2013 7:46:35 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 3047
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

It may be my aging memory, but I don't recall any golden era of the past where lots of Japan players chose PDU OFF. There have been a few AAR games that way, but they spent, the ones I read at least, a lot of time bewailing the choice and how they were flying Nates in 1945. I suspect any Japan player who agrees in the present era of the game's history is going to want stiff concessions in return.


Perhaps you are right. But fcharton seems to do well so far. They arnīt that far along though. But consider this: Not having the need to spend vast amounts on resources on changing factories and doing lots of R&D and pumping out 1500 Fighters per month and all that PDU ON brings...What could be done with all those resources instead? This Iīm really curious on. Could all those saved resources (HI, supply and everything else) be used to stiffen Japanese resistance in other areas.

I refuse to believe the game is "unplayable" with PDU OFF. Iīm still convinced this is how the game is meant to be played and would do away with a lot of the silliness and unbalancing we see in the game.




PDU On actually costs more supplies and HI from switching the factories around to streamline R&D. With PDU Off, you can just let the default factories remain as they are and be largely fine, as you'll end up producing the airframes you need for your units but wouldn't use in a PDU On setting.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Think we've been searching for a fix for the bomb for about sixty years

Don't want to highjack the AAR, but with PDU on, does that mean you can switch any planes to any squadrons?


Any IJA fighter unit can pick any IJA fighter plane, any IJN fighter unit can pick any IJN fighter plane, etc. You can't just change all your Kate units to Betty units, for example. Or Jake/Pete float plane units into Mavis/Emily.

So long as certain conditions (requisite number of planes in the pools, PPs to change from 1E to 2E, etc.) are met, anyway.

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 2736
RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/18/2013 7:46:45 PM   
paullus99


Posts: 1622
Joined: 1/23/2002
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The allied player is normally faced with at least 18 months of getting hammered mercilessly with little or no means of having any real strategic impact on the war....then we get to the middle part where both sides slog it out....then about 18 months of the the Allied Player pounding the heck out of Japan....

Unfortunately, not many games get to the last part, meaning the overall playability from an Allied POV is severely limited.

_____________________________

Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Tactical Nuclear Weapon...

(in reply to Encircled)
Post #: 2737
RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/18/2013 7:49:19 PM   
Encircled


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Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
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Cheers

Is that not the same for the allies?

I know you can't tailor production, but I thought you could switch back and forth?

(in reply to paullus99)
Post #: 2738
RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/18/2013 7:55:18 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 5210
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CyrusSpitama

If I may comment on this *balance* issues. The game is meant to be enjoyed by two players, yes? The only true way to balance this would be for both sides to have equal assets and abilities. Because of the nature of the game and setup, this is impossible to acheive. To acheive some semblance of balance, concessions must be made by both parties, with the stronger party giving more concessions away. I am pretty sure the record will show that Japan has very little chance of surviving once the game hits '44 (assuming a competent Allied player). It seems to me, this means Japan would receive a few more concessions than the Allies receive.

The major drawback to the current setup for the game is the Allies and Japan have extremely divergent assets and abilities. You must admit, by and large, the later Allied units (of all types) are far superior to anything Japan can field. PDU-OFF means you are further hampering Japan and their long term survival and as a consequence, their enjoyment of the game. PDU-ON should not ( and I do not think it does) give Japan a decisive edge over the Allied. It simply allows Japan to field almost comparable assets vs. the Allied. I saw your issues with the plane pools and it is likely that is one issue that could possibly be addressed via mods.


Hi, Welcome!

Very good points all of them. I guess a lot of things depend on how you define "surviving". Japan is after all "meant" to be losing in 44 just as the allied player is meant to lose in 42. Here is where the AV system kicks in. Is PDU OFF the same thing as making a AV victory impossible for the Japanese player? I donīt have a clue! But I hope not. And I doubt it as the developers have said the game is meant to be played with PDU OFF. But I donīt know if there have been any PDU OFF games that ended with a Japanese victory or draw? Anyone else know?

There is no denying the allied abilities on the water and ground in 44-45 is far, far superior to anything the Japanese have at this point. But the same thing is true for the allies in 42 and a bit into 43. Again I think the VP system come into play. If the Jap player can avoid a allied AV in 45 this automatically shifts the victory levels two levels in Japanese favor. So essentially if the Japanese player can avoid a allied AV the worst they can do is a draw if I have understood it correctly. Someone can probably correct me if Iīm wrong.

Regarding the enjoyment levels I can assure you that the air aspect of the game have been of little enjoyment so far for me. I have stated my gripes with this so many times now so I wonīt get into another rant about it!

(in reply to CyrusSpitama)
Post #: 2739
RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/18/2013 8:08:56 PM   
CyrusSpitama


Posts: 190
Joined: 2/21/2011
From: Naw'lins, Luzianna
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quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

The allied player is normally faced with at least 18 months of getting hammered mercilessly with little or no means of having any real strategic impact on the war....then we get to the middle part where both sides slog it out....then about 18 months of the the Allied Player pounding the heck out of Japan....

Unfortunately, not many games get to the last part, meaning the overall playability from an Allied POV is severely limited.


This is another major drawback to the game setup. The Allies can easily handle anything Japan can dish out in '44 and beyond. The problem is getting the game to the point where the Allies enjoy their superiority. This is where two reasonable adults find ways to ensure this part of the game is reached. This would not be the first game played where this issue arises...

_____________________________

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(in reply to paullus99)
Post #: 2740
RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/18/2013 8:13:33 PM   
JocMeister

 

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Joined: 7/29/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Olorin

Don't worry, soon you will have the bomb. Maybe that will satisfy your appetites. But then I suspect we will hear about how it didn't kill as many as it was "supposed to" and that the game is unbalanced in that respect and a fix must be applied asap.


If you donīt agree with me then contribute with something meaningful to the discussion or stay silent? Or donīt read at all? Useless rantings are reserved for me only in here...

PS. Its already known that the A-bomb results are pretty underwhelming?

(in reply to Olorin)
Post #: 2741
RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/18/2013 8:18:10 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 5210
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
PDU On actually costs more supplies and HI from switching the factories around to streamline R&D. With PDU Off, you can just let the default factories remain as they are and be largely fine, as you'll end up producing the airframes you need for your units but wouldn't use in a PDU On setting.


What would be a fair estimate of the supplies and HI saved? Would it be drop in the ocean or something quite significant?


(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 2742
RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/18/2013 8:20:46 PM   
CyrusSpitama


Posts: 190
Joined: 2/21/2011
From: Naw'lins, Luzianna
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Joc, I think it would enlighten you to examine the Japanese air squadrons (especially the later suqadrons) and their possible upgrades before you insist Japan should use PDU-OFF. When you see the extreme limits on so many squadrons, you might understand exactly how easily the Allies could trounce Japan, at least regarding the overall air combat portion of the game.

I recall when I first got the game, even a hard '42 push is severly hampered by the lack of enough squadrons that can upgrade to adequately modern planes. I have since stuck to using PDU-ON...

_____________________________

"I'm sure the universe is full of intelligent life. It's just been too intelligent to come here." - Arthur C. Clarke

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 2743
RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/18/2013 8:32:03 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 5210
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

The allied player is normally faced with at least 18 months of getting hammered mercilessly with little or no means of having any real strategic impact on the war....then we get to the middle part where both sides slog it out....then about 18 months of the the Allied Player pounding the heck out of Japan....

Unfortunately, not many games get to the last part, meaning the overall playability from an Allied POV is severely limited.


Exactly my point with the VP system hopefully balancing things up. If I understood them correctly in order to win the game the allied player HAS to achieve a AV. Not such a small feat I think.

You make a really good point about so few games reaching the late stages so its really hard to talk about balance in the end game. And in reality you canīt really discuss balance without looking at the whole game. The allies are supposed to get clobbered in 42-43 and then its time for the Japanese to get clobbered. Yet many people seem to miss the fact that the Allied player has to chase that 2:1 in 45 if they want to win. Yes, the allies gets loads of ships and great LCU is 44 and 45. But Japan is not supposed to win the war in 44 and 45. They are supposed to fight off that allied AV. Something many people seem to forget. Its a big difference.



(in reply to paullus99)
Post #: 2744
RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/18/2013 8:44:01 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 5210
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CyrusSpitama

Joc, I think it would enlighten you to examine the Japanese air squadrons (especially the later suqadrons) and their possible upgrades before you insist Japan should use PDU-OFF. When you see the extreme limits on so many squadrons, you might understand exactly how easily the Allies could trounce Japan, at least regarding the overall air combat portion of the game.

I recall when I first got the game, even a hard '42 push is severly hampered by the lack of enough squadrons that can upgrade to adequately modern planes. I have since stuck to using PDU-ON...


I donīt "insist" on PDU OFF. But I would love to try it because Iīm not convinced PDU ON is essential for a competent Japanese player. I do admit I have not looked at neither the Japanese nor the allied upgrade paths. So basically I have no clue. But to my (limited) knowledge the game is meant to be played with PDU OFF and I think this was confirmed by the devs at some point?




(in reply to CyrusSpitama)
Post #: 2745
RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/18/2013 9:01:35 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 5210
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: online
18th February -45
______________________________________________________________________________

Short update as its way too late here for me to be up...

------------------------
Luzon
------------------------

The first attack at Lingayen is successful! In a stroke of luck that probably has Erik tearing his hair the defenders retreated west to the coast instead of north. They are now effectively cut off and certainly doomed!

quote:

Ground combat at Lingayen (79,75)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 106472 troops, 1980 guns, 3082 vehicles, Assault Value = 3946

Defending force 48745 troops, 727 guns, 864 vehicles, Assault Value = 510

Allied engineers reduce fortifications to 5

Allied adjusted assault: 1433

Japanese adjusted defense: 141

Allied assault odds: 10 to 1 (fort level 5)

Allied forces CAPTURE Lingayen !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: forts(+), leaders(+), disruption(-), preparation(-)
experience(-), supply(-)

Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
18778 casualties reported
Squads: 142 destroyed, 33 disabled
Non Combat: 1418 destroyed, 192 disabled
Engineers: 599 destroyed, 33 disabled
Guns lost 287 (225 destroyed, 62 disabled)
Vehicles lost 680 (673 destroyed, 7 disabled)
Units retreated 58
Units destroyed 3


Allied ground losses:
1124 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 111 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 40 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 37 disabled
Guns lost 48 (1 destroyed, 47 disabled)
Vehicles lost 51 (2 destroyed, 49 disabled)


Defeated Japanese Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
34th Combat Engineer Regiment
CenPac Amphib Tank Brigade
4th Marine Division
31st Infantry Division
38th Infantry Division
XI Corps Combat Engineer Regiment
1st Cavalry (Spec) Cavalry Division
37th Infantry Division
I Corps Cmbt Engineer Regiment
XIV Corps Combat Engineer Regiment
192nd Tank Battalion
77th Infantry Division
767th Tank Battalion
716th Tank Battalion
1st Marine Division
XI Corps Artillery
XIV US Corps
Southwest Pacific
2nd RAA Jungle Regiment
III US Amphib Corps
2nd USMC Field Artillery Battalion
I Corps Artillery
X US Corps
South Pacific
Sixth US Army
I US Corps
1st Medium Regiment
16th NZ AA Bde
251st Field Artillery Battalion
1 USMC Seacoast Art
205th Field Artillery Battalion
9th USMC Field Artillery Battalion
XI US Corps
10th USMC Field Artillery Battalion
225th Field Artillery Battalion
XXIV CorpsArtillery
XIV Corps Artillery
147th Field Artillery Regiment
694th Field Artillery Battalion
IX Corps Artillery
X Corps Artillery
XXIV US Corps
33rd Medium Regiment


Defending units:
31st Tankette Co
26th Tank Regiment
4th Tank Division
Sasebo 8th SNLF
23rd Ind. Engineer Regiment
25th Ind.Mixed Rgt /1
41st Ind.Garrison Battalion
21st JAAF Base Force /2
1st Air Defense AA Battalion
30th Special Base Force
28th JNAF AF Unit
174th JAAF AF Bn
157th JAAF AF Bn
3rd Ind. AA Battalion
2nd Naval Const Bn /3
193rd JAAF AF Bn
205th Naval Construction Battalion
27th JAAF AF Bn
102nd AA Regiment
2nd Base Force
88th Field AA Battalion
14th Area Army
61st Air Flotilla /1
217th Naval Construction Battalion
1st Ind.AA Gun Co
60th Field AA Battalion
40th Ind. Engineer Regiment
77th Field AA Battalion
4th Ind. AA Battalion
158th JAAF AF Bn
3rd Base Force
56th JNAF AF Unit
41st Ind. Engineer Regiment
28th Special Base Force
216th Naval Construction Battalion
1st Base Force
51st Base Force
57th Fld AA Bn /1
78th Field AA Battalion
2nd Air Fleet
64th Field AA Battalion
1st Fleet
60th JNAF AF Unit
188th JAAF AF Bn
61st Division Engineer Battalion
Hirippin JNAF Base Force
10th JAAF Base Force /2
12th JNAF AF Unit
33rd Special Base Force
67th Const Bn /1
103rd AA Regiment
187th JAAF AF Bn
173rd JAAF AF Bn
31st Special Base Force
58th JNAF AF Unit
37th Army
22nd Field AF Const Bn /1
48th Ind.Mixed Bde /1
3rd Air Div /1
17th RF Gun Battalion
74th JAAF AF Bn
16th Army
91st JAAF AF Bn
85th Field AA Battalion
44th Road Const Co /3


This is certainly good news as I can send some of the troops back towards Manila to rest up. BFs and other troops are starting to arrive from Cotabato and Iloilo. Iīve redirected everything to go straight to Luzon from now on.

------------------------
Air war
------------------------

In a stroke of excellent timing I just recieved 3 squadrons of P51Ds at Eastern USA! This was perfect as it meant I didnīt have to downgrade any of the squadrons that took part in the combat on Luzon 2 days ago!

B29s have started to redeploy to OZ where there is plenty of restricted AS. They will now stand down until we get back to strenght. Iīve probably lost 75% of the force in the last 2 months. Numbers have dropped from 210 at its peak to 116 now. I donīt know how many replacement I have drawn though. Probably around 80. Someone else do the math on the loss ratio. Iīm too tired!

Here is a screen of Luzon.





Attachment (1)

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 2746
RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/18/2013 10:16:13 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 3047
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
PDU On actually costs more supplies and HI from switching the factories around to streamline R&D. With PDU Off, you can just let the default factories remain as they are and be largely fine, as you'll end up producing the airframes you need for your units but wouldn't use in a PDU On setting.


What would be a fair estimate of the supplies and HI saved? Would it be drop in the ocean or something quite significant?




Without divulging what I know of Obvert's production plans, I can give you some estimates, I suppose. In Scen 1, Japan starts with a number of R&D factories that people don't typically produce. I'll ignore factories like for the standard A6M lines, and D4Y/J2M/etc., as people are going to keep those factories in most cases. Likewise, the G4M R&D factories are likely to be changed to something else no matter what as getting the later models early doesn't make any difference.

There are about 19 factories for airframes that you'll need to fill out units. They're in R&D, but with PDU Off you might just leave them so that you can produce them later. PDU On really does let the Japanese player focus their aircraft production which at the same time allows them to focus their R&D - they won't later need those factories, or have to switch existing ones to those airframes that they changed the R&D factories for.

Let's assume the IJ player doesn't even go that far, and only has 15 factories that they wouldn't touch under PDU Off that they would under PDU On.

(Most of these factories are under size 5 to begin with, but some are larger, so would convert to a new airframe at a larger amount. I'd say average size would end up being 3. With optimal R&D size at 30, this means an expansion of 27 for each of these. The IJ player may expand some of these factories anyway under PDU Off, so let's say it's only 25.)

15 * 25 = 375. This is the amount of expansion for these factories, just once. If the player changes to research a different model that's not in the upgrade chain (say, because with PDU On they can just change all their Zero production to Sam production and use the R&D factories on the Karyu or something), this gets a lot more expensive. Not to mention the Production Factory expansion/repair costs from converting. Even worse, what if the IJ player decides that they want those R&D factories anyway and will just convert factories to the undesirable airframes as needed, later, when the squadrons show up? That's even more supply that needs to be burned.

375 * 1100 = 412,500 supply to repair them fully. This isn't a huge amount, but it's also non-trivial - about 1% to 1.5% of the total supply available to the Japanese in the whole war.

375 * 10 = 3,750. This is the initial HI cost to expand the factories. Trivial - less than a day's worth of production. Now, so far as I can tell, R&D factories don't burn up HI when they're researching.

Air groups will remain the same size no matter what, really, so we can call the HI cost of overall production to be a wash, for the most part. The exception to this is all of the 1E bomber units that many players will upgrade to 2E if PDU is on. This costs 75 PPs per unit, but it also doubles the HI cost of filling them out. A typical 27-plane sentai will cost 1,944 HI instead of 972 HI to fill out. Replacements will also cost double. Maybe there are 100 full Sentais throughout that game that need filling out and/or replacing. That's almost 100,000 HI more than PDU Off.


They aren't huge numbers, and this is a very conservative estimate - back of the envelope calculations, erring towards underestimating rather than over. I suspect the "Go bananas" impetus that PDU On gives the Japanese has a much larger effect on the longevity of their economy than I've just estimated. The HI cost of the R&D efforts isn't so bad, but the supply aspect is.

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 2747
RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/19/2013 6:44:30 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 5210
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: online
Lokasenna,

Thank you for taking the time to answer! So to summarize the cost is higher with PDU ON but most likely not big enough to make playing with PDU OFF an attractive alternative? But there is certainly a big amount of supply to be saved in the end? And that might not be non trivial at all?

Sorry if Iīm being dense but I still lack even the most basic understanding of the Japanese industry. Iīm trying to fix this by reading Mikes AAR and the various guides out there. But its slow going.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 2748
RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/19/2013 7:23:34 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 5210
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: online
B-29 Losses
______________________________________________________________________________

Well, here are the numbers. Make up your own minds on the "overpowerness" of Allied strategic nightbombing.

------------------------
B29-1
------------------------

Replacements: 18 planes/months for 7 months =126 Planes
Losses: 226
Total:-100 planes

------------------------
B29-25
------------------------

Replacements: 40 planes/months for 3,5 months = 140 planes
Losses: 148
Total:-8 planes

In total that is -108 planes. So basically the arms are eating the legs to keep swimming. Eleven B29 squadrons are now completely empty of planes. Thats about 22% of the total numbers. So a fourth of the squadrons are now most likely out for the remainder of the war.

EDIT1: The actual number of empty squadrons is in fact 14. I couldnīt get that to add up with the numbers. But its because all the B29-1 squadrons resized from 7 to 10. But a couple of them withdrew freeing up planes too.

EDIT2: I forgot I had withdrawn 3 squadrons (reforming in 120 days). So thats another 3 squadrons out. I think I got it right now. 17 in total. Slightly over 30% (32%) of the total squadrons are now empty.

This of course is a downward spiral. Less planes in each strike means less damage done and more losses taken. Hence I now had to pull the gutted Mariana squadrons from combat. Another factor here is that these have been flown by the absolutely best pilots I have. Most of them are now gone. These pilots can never be replaced. So results in the future will quite possibly be even worse due to decreased pilot quality.

The last 2 raids on the HI has caused something like 1300 fires for 77 downed B29s. Overpowered? Also keep in mind that Erik post about raid frequency on the HI ("twice per week") is complete bogus. Iīve written down every strike in the AAR so you can check for yourselves if you are interested in the real numbers. They are somewhere around once per 8-12 days due to recovering plane fatigue.

These are the numbers. I hope I got the math right otherwise Iīm sure someone will correct me. My view on this is pretty clear so I wonīt go into another discussion about it. Make up your own minds.



< Message edited by JocMeister -- 11/19/2013 11:20:24 AM >

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 2749
RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/19/2013 9:02:51 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 5210
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: online
19th February -45
______________________________________________________________________________

Another of those quiet turns.

------------------------
Luzon
------------------------

No combat today. Troops reached Bataan. Since the CD guns havnīt fired back for quite some time I assume the defenders are out of supply. Only a ID and Tank BTL send here but I hope its enough.

Looking at the air losses Erik is pulling fragments out via flying boat. Grrr. I need a base closer to the northern bases. Armor is racing towards towards the nearest bases.

Repair yard at Manila is now at 10 and has started servicing the first ships. Some DDs with ENG damage. Tomorrow our first load of locally produced fuel will start unloading! 48.000 fuel from Tarakan!

CVs are now withdrawing out of sight. I hope this makes Erik a nervous.

------------------------
Allied LOC
------------------------

Erik tries again for TFs in the LOC. This time he tries for a troop convoy. These I do put a CAP over though!

quote:

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Yap at 96,94

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 26 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B7A2 Grace x 31

Allied aircraft
F6F-3 Hellcat x 25

Japanese aircraft losses
B7A2 Grace: 19 destroyed

No Allied losses


He also intercept on of my training runs in the lower DEI.

quote:

Morning Air attack on 1st Raiding Force , at 74,116 (Moa)

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 7 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 2 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K2-J George x 12
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 19


Allied aircraft
PBJ-1D Mitchell x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K2-J George: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-IV Oscar: 2 destroyed


Allied aircraft losses
PBJ-1D Mitchell: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged


21 Japanese fighters are lost for 5 allied bombers. I really wish this could be fixed. I completely understand Eriks frustration with the attack bombers forward facing guns dropping fighters like flies.

------------------------
Strat bombing
------------------------

The B29-1 continue to strike into China. This time with good results!

quote:

Night Air attack on Changsha , at 82,52

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 27 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 16

No Allied losses

Heavy Industry hits 15


This might force Erik to move NFs to China. But he doesnīt know the Mariana B29s have been withdrawn. I moved in some other bombers to keep the numbers up.

------------------------
Thailand
------------------------

Erik is still trying to kill off whats left of Superstack Mk.1. Not much is getting destroyed lately though.

quote:


Ground combat at 55,59 (near Tavoy)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 19359 troops, 123 guns, 53 vehicles, Assault Value = 31

Defending force 21211 troops, 166 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 585

Assaulting units:
3rd Mortar Battalion
2nd Division
2nd Tank Division

25th Army
22nd Tank Regiment
28th Army
5th Division
33rd Division

10th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
29th Ind.Mixed Brigade
2nd Army
Burma Area Army
38th Division
15th Army
19th Army
79th Brigade
39th Division
55th Division
21st Division

2nd Guards Division
16th Division

5th Mortar Battalion
24th Ind.Mixed Brigade
2nd Area Army
75th Infantry Brigade
10th Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
18th Division
1st Medium Field Artillery Regiment
1st Ind.Mixed Regiment
7th JAAF Base Force


Defending units:
2nd New Chinese Corps
NCAC



There is still a lot of divisions left here. I donīt know if he could rebuild them all even if he did manage to kill them off?

------------------------
Indochina/China
------------------------

Argh, a bit of snag here. The 450.000 supply unloaded at Haiphong seemingly disappeared. I manage to find it in central Thailand...those two bases (Udon Thani and Ubon) I couldnīt get into supply earlier now has 150.000 supply. Each. I had increased supply demand at them both. They were still unable to draw any supply over the RR from Bangkok only 7 hexes away but apparently drawing through the jungles from Haiphong is no problem?




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by JocMeister -- 11/19/2013 10:08:14 AM >

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 2750
RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/19/2013 12:21:38 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 8626
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

It may be my aging memory, but I don't recall any golden era of the past where lots of Japan players chose PDU OFF. There have been a few AAR games that way, but they spent, the ones I read at least, a lot of time bewailing the choice and how they were flying Nates in 1945. I suspect any Japan player who agrees in the present era of the game's history is going to want stiff concessions in return.


Perhaps you are right. But fcharton seems to do well so far. They arnīt that far along though. But consider this: Not having the need to spend vast amounts on resources on changing factories and doing lots of R&D and pumping out 1500 Fighters per month and all that PDU ON brings...What could be done with all those resources instead? This Iīm really curious on. Could all those saved resources (HI, supply and everything else) be used to stiffen Japanese resistance in other areas.

I refuse to believe the game is "unplayable" with PDU OFF. Iīm still convinced this is how the game is meant to be played and would do away with a lot of the silliness and unbalancing we see in the game.




I don't disagree with your supply points. I think you might see Japanese players continuing to build merchants and sending more supply out to "the ring", actually making Allied players master amphibious ops which, in many games, are subsumed by large-stack continental war in Burma and China.

I just think you're going to have trouble finding Japan players who will give up their woobie. (American slang for "child's security blanket." )

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 2751
RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/19/2013 12:29:49 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 8626
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CyrusSpitama

If I may comment on this *balance* issues. The game is meant to be enjoyed by two players, yes? The only true way to balance this would be for both sides to have equal assets and abilities. Because of the nature of the game and setup, this is impossible to acheive. To acheive some semblance of balance, concessions must be made by both parties, with the stronger party giving more concessions away. I am pretty sure the record will show that Japan has very little chance of surviving once the game hits '44 (assuming a competent Allied player). It seems to me, this means Japan would receive a few more concessions than the Allies receive.

The major drawback to the current setup for the game is the Allies and Japan have extremely divergent assets and abilities. You must admit, by and large, the later Allied units (of all types) are far superior to anything Japan can field. PDU-OFF means you are further hampering Japan and their long term survival and as a consequence, their enjoyment of the game. PDU-ON should not ( and I do not think it does) give Japan a decisive edge over the Allied. It simply allows Japan to field almost comparable assets vs. the Allied. I saw your issues with the plane pools and it is likely that is one issue that could possibly be addressed via mods.


I of course disagree.

The asymmetric OOB is a fact of the history of the PTO. It's not the only one in the world of wargaming either. If you want equal then chess and checkers offer it. The "concessions" you speak of are BUILT INTO THE DESIGN. Sorry for shouting, but I get tired of saying it. If players would play the game as designed they would find that the OOBs are already handled. Play for VPs, play, as Japan , to survive and not to win the war, don't invade Oz, India, or Hawaii, emphasize ASW, fortify, fortify, fortify your defensive ring . . . all the things history has taught Japan ought to have done better. Some they saw, some they didn't. ALL of them we know now, but we still see Japanese players stepping in bear traps and then claiming they need HRs for "fairness."

Play the design. As Jocke points out, every decision to not do something opens up chances to do something else. PDU ON ought to be an option to play what-if, and certainly if the players are mismatched skill-wise. But for any evenly-matched "historical" player to demand it be ON . . . hypocrisy.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to CyrusSpitama)
Post #: 2752
RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/19/2013 12:35:06 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 8626
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Cheers

Is that not the same for the allies?

I know you can't tailor production, but I thought you could switch back and forth?


It's the same for the Allies re inside aircraft "classes" as Lokasenna described. The difference for the Allies, more or less, is that the crappy planes are in pre-war pools and once the war starts they dry up pretty quickly. Numbers are very limited. So, the Allies can't stick CONUS training into P-26s and put the P-40s all on the front line since there aren't any P-26s and no more are made. Same with even P-40Bs. What the Allies get are very small monthly runs of semi-decent planes right away in December. And I mean VERY small.

Then it gets better.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Encircled)
Post #: 2753
RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/19/2013 12:37:48 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6292
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
I don't want to sound polemic or anything like that, but i'm feeling obliged (sp?!) to comment.

Joc: probably the best way to judge if PDU=ON is really a game breaker as you say, for your next game you should simply try to shift sides and play on Japan with Scen 2 and PDU=ON.
I did it and it was an "eyes-opener". An Epiphany.
Once you discover how fragile is japanese power (even in 1942) you'll surely change your mind a bit.

I'm currently playing 2 games, one with Japan against QBall and one with the allies against Mr.Kane (both are DBB-C games) and i can tell you every time i open the allied game i'm amazed by the quantity and quality of my assets. In 1944 "my" Japan is a paper-****cat

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 2754
RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/19/2013 12:47:57 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 8626
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Lokasenna,

Thank you for taking the time to answer! So to summarize the cost is higher with PDU ON but most likely not big enough to make playing with PDU OFF an attractive alternative? But there is certainly a big amount of supply to be saved in the end? And that might not be non trivial at all?

Sorry if Iīm being dense but I still lack even the most basic understanding of the Japanese industry. Iīm trying to fix this by reading Mikes AAR and the various guides out there. But its slow going.


As L. so ably demonstrates, the HI cost is pretty minor, the supply cost is a much bigger consideration. But to me the main difference isn't economic, but tactical and strategic. By which I mean what does Japan NOT try to do if they know they will have to field more lower-capability aircraft later in the war? What ops, what invasions are not undertaken? What geographic choices are made differently? What units are dedicated to kamis immediately that might still be bombing if in 3rd generation aircraft?? To me that's the key thing.

Also remember that PDU OFF affects the Allies too. Think how much flex you've had here in the late war to juggle your training groups, going backwards to buy airframes for the front. How much it helps being able to shift B-17 groups to B-24s and vice versa. It's not all a Japanese cross to bear. I played an AI game as Allies with PDU OFF and it was a pretty different mid-game for sure.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 2755
RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/19/2013 12:50:39 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 5210
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
I just think you're going to have trouble finding Japan players who will give up their woobie. (American slang for "child's security blanket." )


It think you are right about that.

I would still like to try it at least one time though. As Iīve mentioned many times now its just speculation on my part regarding PDU ON/OFF. I still think playing with PDU OFF could be a lot of fun for both sides and make a lot of the things in the game make more sense. The whole game was designed around PDU OFF after all.

Iīm still convinced a potent Japanese player could do very well with PDU OFF. I just have to find one that believes the same!

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 2756
RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/19/2013 1:05:21 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 8626
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
I just think you're going to have trouble finding Japan players who will give up their woobie. (American slang for "child's security blanket." )


It think you are right about that.

I would still like to try it at least one time though. As Iīve mentioned many times now its just speculation on my part regarding PDU ON/OFF. I still think playing with PDU OFF could be a lot of fun for both sides and make a lot of the things in the game make more sense. The whole game was designed around PDU OFF after all.

Iīm still convinced a potent Japanese player could do very well with PDU OFF. I just have to find one that believes the same!


If nothing else I think it might speed up turn prep time, especially for Japan.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 2757
RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/19/2013 1:11:43 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 5210
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

I don't want to sound polemic or anything like that, but i'm feeling obliged (sp?!) to comment.

Joc: probably the best way to judge if PDU=ON is really a game breaker as you say, for your next game you should simply try to shift sides and play on Japan with Scen 2 and PDU=ON.
I did it and it was an "eyes-opener". An Epiphany.
Once you discover how fragile is japanese power (even in 1942) you'll surely change your mind a bit.

I'm currently playing 2 games, one with Japan against QBall and one with the allies against Mr.Kane (both are DBB-C games) and i can tell you every time i open the allied game i'm amazed by the quantity and quality of my assets. In 1944 "my" Japan is a paper-****cat


I wonder if you (and perhaps a lot of other people as well) has misunderstood me with my PDU ON/OFF speculations? I have never once said its a game breaker or that its ruining the game. What I have said is that I donīt like it and I think it messes with a lot of things. This in turn takes a lot of enjoyment out of the game (at least for me). The air war have been the least enjoyable part of the game for me. I donīt think Erik has enjoyed it very much either but you will have to ask him about that.

I think (speculation on my part) that playing with PDU OFF would make things make a lot more sense and you could do away with all the HRs about night bombing, altitudes, sweep/LRCAP, airfield stacking and the myriad of different variations on this we see today.

Either people are taking things out of context or Iīm being unclear. I donīt think PDU ON destroys the game. I have never said that. Is it fun having empty pool in 45 as an allied player when you are forced to push, push and push? Not at all. But it can still be done so it hasnīt broken the game. I never said it did. Iīm just saying its not much fun. And I do whine about it a lot. But I think in my own AAR Iīm entitled to do that?

I just donīt buy the talk that the game is impossible to play as the Japanese with PDU OFF. Do anyone here envision PzB rolling belly up because he has to play with PDU OFF? Not likely I say.

Again to make it perfectly clear: Iīm just speculating around the idea that PDU OFF will give a better overall experience. For both sides. But I guess it depends on what you are after. Iīm still very intrigued by fcharton and he his game. It will be very interesting to hear his thoughts when he is further in.

< Message edited by JocMeister -- 11/19/2013 2:14:56 PM >

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 2758
RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/19/2013 1:25:36 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 5210
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
As L. so ably demonstrates, the HI cost is pretty minor, the supply cost is a much bigger consideration. But to me the main difference isn't economic, but tactical and strategic. By which I mean what does Japan NOT try to do if they know they will have to field more lower-capability aircraft later in the war? What ops, what invasions are not undertaken? What geographic choices are made differently? What units are dedicated to kamis immediately that might still be bombing if in 3rd generation aircraft?? To me that's the key thing.

Also remember that PDU OFF affects the Allies too. Think how much flex you've had here in the late war to juggle your training groups, going backwards to buy airframes for the front. How much it helps being able to shift B-17 groups to B-24s and vice versa. It's not all a Japanese cross to bear. I played an AI game as Allies with PDU OFF and it was a pretty different mid-game for sure.


This is what Iīm thinking to. The game would certainly look different for both sides. Iīm just not convinced it automatically means Japan is unplayable as some people seem to think. If Im not mistaken The Elf confirmed the game and entire air war was designed to be played with PDU OFF?


(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 2759
RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/19/2013 2:23:27 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 3047
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
I just think you're going to have trouble finding Japan players who will give up their woobie. (American slang for "child's security blanket." )


It think you are right about that.

I would still like to try it at least one time though. As Iīve mentioned many times now its just speculation on my part regarding PDU ON/OFF. I still think playing with PDU OFF could be a lot of fun for both sides and make a lot of the things in the game make more sense. The whole game was designed around PDU OFF after all.

Iīm still convinced a potent Japanese player could do very well with PDU OFF. I just have to find one that believes the same!


If nothing else I think it might speed up turn prep time, especially for Japan.


I disagree, at least on the industry part. It would require juggling more aircraft factories. Granted, like all else in Japan's industry, once you have it set up it's easier. But setting it up takes that much longer, and it requires that much more time to check up on it. And as upgrade dates near, it would take that much more time. With PDU On, one only has to keep track of about 7-8 important airframe availability dates (Tojo/Frank, Zero, Val/Judy, Kate/Jill, IJAAF 2E, IJNAF 2E, Jack/George) along with maybe 5 or so subsidiary dates that are less important (Oscar, Nick, night fighters, Ki-83 or Ki-94, etc.).

It might speed up turn prep later when the Japanese OOB is less capable due to being stuck in 1st generation aircraft until 1944, because there won't be as much battle planning to do.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 2760
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