AI performance "WEAK!!!"

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AI performance "WEAK!!!"

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Tech Support >> AI performance "WEAK!!!"

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AI performance "WEAK!!!" - 6/7/2012 3:31:38 PM

santino250

Posts: 98
Joined: 6/17/2009
Status: offline

Is it just me, or does the latest Update, seem to make the AI fleets very "weak" ??
I have tried playing as Aliies on both Normal AI & Hard AI, and have had NO problem with the Japanese Fleets..

I even had a Jap fleet sit just next to Pearl, letting me destroy it turn after turn...

Now, playing this game from earlier versions, In the first six months, you did not dare to attack a Jap Air-craft fleet... you would suffer heavy losses...

I am now playing as Allies, and it is 12/42, and there is no-more Carrier threat from Japan.. This is on Hard?? Is this just me?? or is the AI playing poorly since the update??

Just curious?

ps. If I wanted to go to a previous Version, what would I do? Re-install everything?

Thanks

_____________________________

santino

Post #: 1

RE: AI performance "WEAK!!!" - 6/7/2012 4:07:39 PM

Andy Mac

Posts: 13622
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: online

Not that I am aware of I thought I had got rid of the PH bug can you send me a save please and I will take a look.

a.mcphie@btinternet.com

(in reply to santino250)

Post #: 2

RE: AI performance "WEAK!!!" - 6/24/2012 6:27:12 PM

diamond dave

Posts: 13
Joined: 3/8/2012
From: Arkansas, USA
Status: offline

The AI seems to play the Japanese Navy very poorly. It likes to send ships to enemy bases at random, regardless of how heavy Allied bomber coverage is, only to get sunk for no result. My campaign is at 12/43 and already the IJN has ceased to be an effective fighting force, not because of a few decisive battles, but because their ships keep committing hara-kiri against mass land-based bomber coverage. The Yamato got sunk from multiple bomb hits from low-level B-25 bombers (!!!), and the Soryu uselessly sacrificed herself by approaching a heavily defended Port Moresby, long after I had established total air superiority over New Guinea and most of the Solomons. The vaunted cruiser force is all but wiped out, courtesy of sailing into land-based bomber range for no good reason, and becoming ducks in a shooting gallery.

There needs to be code that prevents Japanese surface ships from approaching bases with land-based bombers, particularly dive and torpedo, unless they are under a heavy umbrella of carrier air support. Also the IJN needs to mass its forces for battle at critical areas rather than wasting units piecemeal.

(in reply to Andy Mac)

Post #: 3

RE: AI performance "WEAK!!!" - 6/24/2012 7:21:14 PM

Capt Cliff

Posts: 1587
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Northwest, USA
Status: offline

The AI is scripted, look at some of the scenarios. So if you play it a couple of times you can easily destroy the AI. This is a very complex game with hundreds of units so if you are looking for a challenge try a human opponent. But beware ... sharks live in that sea ...

... they are masters of this game and will hand you your beating heart before you know it's gone.

_____________________________

Capt. Cliff

(in reply to diamond dave)

Post #: 4

RE: AI performance "WEAK!!!" - 6/25/2012 5:28:03 PM

Lecivius

Posts: 644
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

The AI is scripted, look at some of the scenarios. So if you play it a couple of times you can easily destroy the AI. This is a very complex game with hundreds of units so if you are looking for a challenge try a human opponent. But beware ... sharks live in that sea ... ... they are masters of this game and will hand you your beating heart before you know it's gone.

QFT

(in reply to Capt Cliff)

Post #: 5

RE: AI performance "WEAK!!!" - 6/27/2012 4:02:41 PM

janh

Posts: 1140
Joined: 6/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff
The AI is scripted, look at some of the scenarios. So if you play it a couple of times you can easily destroy the AI. This is a very complex game with hundreds of units so if you are looking for a challenge try a human opponent. But beware ... sharks live in that sea ... ... they are masters of this game and will hand you your beating heart before you know it's gone.

That's not entirely correct I believe. At the strategic level, i.e. which bases to invade, defend and when, and with what specific land- or air units, or types of TFs, it is scripted. Beyond that there are obviously also a lot of routines hardcoded that for example determine reactions.

One of them is a reaction of a naval TF to air threats, which you may also notice sometime reroutes or retreats your own ships (notably convoys or such). I think this routine also ought to prevent phenomena like Allied or IJ AI sacrifices of ships against (known but not common-sense expectable) LBA, such as often suicidal Japanese CV raids or piecemeal Allied CV supports of invasions. It would be great if this routine could be tuned to further safe AI assets, even if it meant additional "cheating" capabilities of AI through FoW. I think this could enhance the AI games substantially.

Regarding the distributed use of CVs in smaller TFs versus keeping for e.g. KB together for the entirity of the war (such as many players do): One can edit all the AI scripts that Andy Mac wrote and adjust TF needs. You can also remove many of the raids that can cause either much irritation and trouble to the player, or senseless loss of AI assets. It is a lot of work going through the AI scripts, though, and I never finished this. My respects for Andy Mac at this point -- I don't want to image the work and pain he must have put into them.

Historically both the IJ and the Allied at times sent off smaller detachments of carriers, which some other players also do (mostly during the IJ expansion phase of 42, and while the risk is low). So AI does actually act along historical doctrines. However, against a conservative player concentrating his CV, this just gets ugly. In an ideal world, AI could adjust the force thresholds in the scripts, i.e. dynamical scripting. Then it could also adapt to the manner in which the player uses his CV.

If there ever will be an AE2, I hope the AI scripting capabilities will get a do-over. For now, AI is good at least into late 42, and if you play along historical doctrines and not too aggressively, i.e. also split your CV occasionally, it can give you a good game for even longer.

< Message edited by janh -- 6/27/2012 4:04:16 PM >

(in reply to Capt Cliff)

Post #: 6

RE: AI performance "WEAK!!!" - 6/27/2012 4:47:19 PM

Andy Mac

Posts: 13622
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: online

Couple of things to remember the AI scripts were developed almost two years ago in response to the number 1 criticism of the AI in WITP that it was to boring and never tried anything aggressive.

It worked well for 12 months against this player base but most of you know it to well now having played the game a few times.

On hard or very hard the AI can still be a hand full for a while if you do not replay turns especially on Ironman where it can aford to lose more assets.

I am working on a full set of new scripts that have reduced but more powerfull AI TF concentrations but in reality the AI especially the Japanese AI needs to spread itself thin to exploit alied weakness - a decent allied player can pull a fortress Java or Sumatra and I try to provide the Ai with counters for this but that often means blitz blitz blitz and take a few more loses.

Overall you need to draw the line somewhere as its a fine balance. The amount of testing required to ensure something doesnt break is nasty.

(in reply to janh)

Post #: 7

RE: AI performance "WEAK!!!" - 6/27/2012 6:05:50 PM

HistoryGuy

Posts: 76
Joined: 1/7/2009
From: Woodbridge, VA
Status: offline

I wont be too tough on the AI because I have learned that it can be fooled and that (gasp!) it is predicatble. That is why I migrated to PBEM..............but along the path up to that decision point, I learned that the Japanese AI was anything BUT weak. Especially in the earlier versions of WITP!

(in reply to Andy Mac)

Post #: 8

RE: AI performance "WEAK!!!" - 6/27/2012 10:29:32 PM

pws1225

Posts: 563
Joined: 8/9/2010
From: Tate's Hell, Florida
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Couple of things to remember the AI scripts were developed almost two years ago in response to the number 1 criticism of the AI in WITP that it was to boring and never tried anything aggressive.

It worked well for 12 months against this player base but most of you know it to well now having played the game a few times.

On hard or very hard the AI can still be a hand full for a while if you do not replay turns especially on Ironman where it can aford to lose more assets.

I am working on a full set of new scripts that have reduced but more powerfull AI TF concentrations but in reality the AI especially the Japanese AI needs to spread itself thin to exploit alied weakness - a decent allied player can pull a fortress Java or Sumatra and I try to provide the Ai with counters for this but that often means blitz blitz blitz and take a few more loses.

Overall you need to draw the line somewhere as its a fine balance. The amount of testing required to ensure something doesnt break is nasty.

If you need a hand testing scripts, I may be able lend a hand. RL demands too much time start a new PBEM, but script testing could be a possibility.

Regards, Paul

(in reply to Andy Mac)

Post #: 9

RE: AI performance "WEAK!!!" - 6/28/2012 1:45:58 AM

House Stark

Posts: 155
Joined: 4/30/2011
Status: offline

I'm gonna chime in just to say thanks again Andy for the great scripts. Sure, they're not perfect, but considering the complexity of the game it's amazing that the AI can be threatening at all. Looking forward to your new ones.

But since this is the in the bug fixes forum, I will say that one of the few things I really wish the AI did better was know when to retreat it's carrier TFs after taking losses. Often it would launch one of the "suicide raids" and proceed to have its carriers stick around, even when they were probably down to less than 25% airgroup strength. It's been awhile since I've played vs Japanese AI so I'm not sure if this still happens, but if you could, it might be good for the AI to automatically retreat its carriers if it notices that its airgroups are more than half depleted.

(in reply to pws1225)

Post #: 10

RE: AI performance "WEAK!!!" - 6/28/2012 9:45:08 AM

PaxMondo

Posts: 4427
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
On hard or very hard the AI can still be a hand full for a while if you do not replay turns especially on Ironman where it can aford to lose more assets.

+1

Ironman gives a very good game for quite some time if you don't do any deep end runs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I am working on a full set of new scripts that have reduced but more powerfull AI TF concentrations but in reality the AI especially the Japanese AI needs to spread itself thin to exploit alied weakness - a decent allied player can pull a fortress Java or Sumatra and I try to provide the Ai with counters for this but that often means blitz blitz blitz and take a few more loses.

Overall you need to draw the line somewhere as its a fine balance. The amount of testing required to ensure something doesnt break is nasty.

Can't wait to play these! Thanks for all of your efforts!!!

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to Andy Mac)

Post #: 11

RE: AI performance "WEAK!!!" - 7/4/2012 6:40:39 AM

Pascal

Posts: 1634
Joined: 8/20/2003
From: in 'Haboob' country weekdays; the OC on w/ends
Status: offline

This topic has been beaten to death over the years by many on this forum, with a number that are experts in the field of computer programming and artificial intelligence.

If you want serious opposition, you should PBEM. It may be slower (with turns going back and forth), but there's no beating a human opponent.

_____________________________

So much WitP and so little time to play.... :-(

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 12

RE: AI performance "WEAK!!!" - 7/5/2012 3:45:00 PM

rjl518

Posts: 69
Joined: 11/27/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

The AI is scripted, look at some of the scenarios. So if you play it a couple of times you can easily destroy the AI. This is a very complex game with hundreds of units so if you are looking for a challenge try a human opponent. But beware ... sharks live in that sea ... ... they are masters of this game and will hand you your beating heart before you know it's gone.

Ouch! Harsh!

QFT

_____________________________

"Now I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the OTHER poor dumb bastard die for HIS country!!
--George C. Scott "Patton"

(in reply to Lecivius)

Post #: 13