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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls)

 
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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls) - 6/21/2012 3:13:59 PM   
glvaca

 

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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls) - 6/21/2012 3:14:18 PM   
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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls) - 6/21/2012 9:08:37 PM   
glvaca

 

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TURN 16
Before moves, after recon.





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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls) - 6/21/2012 9:15:10 PM   
glvaca

 

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NORTH
To my amazement he crosses Volkhov after beating back a security reg.
Once again a Cav division tries to cut the RR leading North. But this time, with the Fins taking over a large part of the front, I have the considerable striking force 4 inf Corps available.




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< Message edited by glvaca -- 6/21/2012 9:39:29 PM >

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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls) - 6/21/2012 9:21:34 PM   
glvaca

 

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CENTER LEFT FLANK
The battle for the flank at Pskov reaches fever pitch and some divisions are shifted North, out of the swamps, to form a weak screen to his rear. With several divisions available to cut behind his rear I think have the situation under control.

Further East, he gives up his attempt to cut the RR around VL but pushes several rallied cav divs South to relieve the Rhzev pocket once more and cut-off the 6th Panzer once again!





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< Message edited by glvaca -- 6/21/2012 9:31:05 PM >

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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls) - 6/21/2012 9:27:01 PM   
glvaca

 

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CENTER RIGHT FLANK
The pocket holds, but Tarhannus certainly tried.
The weakest part of the line is subjected to seeveral spoiling and bombing attacks before the main assault but stands fast! Iron crosses first class for everyone!

On the flank, several reg. and a panzer div are pushed back, the pz div twice, but overall the storm is weathered without serious problems.




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< Message edited by glvaca -- 6/21/2012 9:33:48 PM >

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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls) - 6/21/2012 9:45:21 PM   
glvaca

 

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NORTH
The penetration over the Volkhov is pushed back and cut-off further East with no hope of escape.

East of Pskov, infantry cut's behind the attempt at penetration and again a pocket is formed although it will most likely be broken.

CENTER
The Rhzev pocket is re-established and can't be broken this time.
Kalinin is taken once again.
The Moscow pocket is reduced to less then half after assaults from all sides, including several Pz Divs. from the East.
The remaining Pz Divs attack Eastwards to widen the cordon and increase the distance to the East.

SOUTH
Stalino holds. 2 multi division deliberates are beaten off. This spirited resistance prohibits further attacks to the East in the direction of Rostov.
The Sea of Azov pocket is re-established and will be unbreakable this time. Another 10 divisions are in the Kessel.

Resistance everywhere is collapsing, finally.





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< Message edited by glvaca -- 6/21/2012 10:44:04 PM >

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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls) - 6/21/2012 9:47:38 PM   
glvaca

 

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The Soviets drop below 3 million ready soldiers...




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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls) - 6/21/2012 9:48:06 PM   
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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls) - 6/21/2012 9:48:31 PM   
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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls) - 6/21/2012 9:53:33 PM   
glvaca

 

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TURN 17
For the first time this campaign, the Soviets almost everywhere take a voluntary step back...

Only the Pskov swamps pocket is broken. The butchering continues.






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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls) - 6/21/2012 9:56:07 PM   
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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls) - 6/21/2012 9:56:28 PM   
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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls) - 6/21/2012 9:56:49 PM   
glvaca

 

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Unit losses.




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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls) - 6/21/2012 9:58:18 PM   
glvaca

 

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Forgot the OOB shot. IIRC the Soviets drop to around 2.76 million.

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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls) - 6/21/2012 10:09:15 PM   
M60A3TTS

 

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Outstanding job.  Any plans for the snow turns?  It looks like simply clearing the salient in the vicinity of V.V. would give you a great position to start the blizzard from.  Your opponent will be hard pressed to make significant gains in the weakened state he is in. 

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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls) - 6/21/2012 10:11:16 PM   
Flaviusx


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I doubt this game will get to snow. I'd be resigning about now.



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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls) - 6/21/2012 10:22:50 PM   
glvaca

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Outstanding job.  Any plans for the snow turns?  It looks like simply clearing the salient in the vicinity of V.V. would give you a great position to start the blizzard from.  Your opponent will be hard pressed to make significant gains in the weakened state he is in. 


Thanks Ed, appreciate it.

For Snow I have the Leningrad pcoket to clear and push on through the Valdai.
Perhaps other limited offensives to cause losses and interupt his Blizzard preparations. We'll have to see.

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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls) - 6/21/2012 10:31:01 PM   
glvaca

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I doubt this game will get to snow. I'd be resigning about now.




Actually, I've been debating whether to offer and accept Tahunnas surrender at this point.
However, you may find this hard to believe with the current score, he really gave me a hard time. The initial Southern battles, the Smolensk battle, the drive on Moscow & Leningrad, the battles for the flanks... They were all very much touch and go afairs. A lot could have gone wrong and he sure tried to make it go wrong.

So on the one hand I had to fight really hard to get this postion for Blizzard. One the other hand he's really weak.
The question is though, did it have to come to this? There are many pockets which could have easily been avoided but he chose to stay regardless of the consequences. Does that now warrent a surrender?

To be fair, I know Tarhunnas will never ask to surrender. He agreed to a battle to the end and he will honor his agreement.

Secondly, he IS a great player, the one chip on his shoulder is his incredible reluctance to give up terrain even when it is past the point of useful and the fixation on secondary/tertiary objectives to the determent of his primary objectives. If he works on those he would be very hard to beat.

< Message edited by glvaca -- 6/21/2012 10:41:59 PM >

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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls) - 6/21/2012 10:43:32 PM   
Flaviusx


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Yes, he fights too far forward everywhere and his reluctance to yield ground is fatal. When force levels drop beyond a certain point, you have to fall back. An upfront defense requires a certain density to pull off. You can only reach those densities in 1941 on limited parts of the front. Elsewhere, discretion is the better part of valor.

A lot of the pockets made were indeed avoidable. He also tends to reinforce failure; sometimes it is best to let the remnants die off and work on building a new line in the rear rather than feed more men into a pocket.

Ironically, the one place where it can really pay off to put up a stiff defense is a place he always runs away, namely, the Finnish front north of Lake Ladoga. There is no reason at all to give the Finns a free pass to the Svir.





< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 6/21/2012 10:54:09 PM >


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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls) - 6/21/2012 11:47:24 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Yes, he fights too far forward everywhere and his reluctance to yield ground is fatal. When force levels drop beyond a certain point, you have to fall back. An upfront defense requires a certain density to pull off. You can only reach those densities in 1941 on limited parts of the front. Elsewhere, discretion is the better part of valor.

A lot of the pockets made were indeed avoidable. He also tends to reinforce failure; sometimes it is best to let the remnants die off and work on building a new line in the rear rather than feed more men into a pocket.

Ironically, the one place where it can really pay off to put up a stiff defense is a place he always runs away, namely, the Finnish front north of Lake Ladoga. There is no reason at all to give the Finns a free pass to the Svir.







I think Tarhunnas tactics are part of his history really and the general problem most SHC players have.

Tarhunnas like many other players(SHC) win,win and keep winning using his basic strategy. They get confident in their strategy. Then comes allong a good GHC player or 2 and the old strategy which won easly time after time, flops.

I am guessing Tarhunnas being a good player will learn from his errors as I am many others have and be a better player in the future.

The game was very close as was MT's, but in the end the Red Army is just a shell because of losses over time.

I have to agree with Flaviusx there is no recovering from these losses and the lose of manpower centers. Hmm he recover but not until late 43 which will be much to late.





< Message edited by Pelton -- 6/21/2012 11:50:15 PM >


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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls) - 6/22/2012 12:14:42 AM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
I am guessing Tarhunnas being a good player will learn from his errors as I am many others have and be a better player in the future.


That's all?

Are you serious?

You and some other players have hysterically demanded this forward thing (NO runaways, remember?). Now you have it under your own eyes. See the results. And all you have to say is "he will learn from this"...

I would have hoped some er... coherence... really vocal when it's about the Axis getting stick... and now just really soft when the Soviets are getting some...

That's zero credibility on my book, sorry. Whilst Tarhunnas has been 100% honest, sticking to the rule (vs Michael T that is)

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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls) - 6/22/2012 1:05:40 AM   
glvaca

 

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TD, hang on a minute.
As Tarhunnas himself pointed out he did not play MT any different then he would otherwise and I dare say he proved his point by doing so in our game.
Secondly, a forward defense is effective up to a point. It is not easy to break, but once the odds are starting to go against the Soviet player, discretion is certainly the better part of valour.

Now I can sense you are in a worked up state and are going to try to use this game to prove your point that the Soviets are doomed to lose in 41. I would recommend caution. The important bit to remember is that what happened historically is only a a guideline to achieve historical plausibility. From the first move historical comparisons are just like comparing the previous years football final with the current. They should follow the same rules, but all the rest is just nice to know.

Tarhunnas chose his own strategy, he was not forced to fight forward or stay as long as he did in certain places. So the main lesson I take away is one I've been preaching all along, fighting forward to "much" is very risky. Sometimes you'll get away with it, most of the times you won't. As to what is too much depends on the German player.

Finally, the last thing I'm after is a pat on the back from anyone, including you, but breaking such a determined defense does require skill and judging from the whining of several individuals (being very quiet these days) breaking such a forward defense was put in doubt, let alone a run-away defense.

I'm about to start my game with Michael and I'm looking forward to see what he will come up with.


< Message edited by glvaca -- 6/22/2012 10:25:06 PM >

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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls) - 6/22/2012 11:02:54 AM   
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if attack on the pz div east of moscow had succeded and big pocket had been opened before the mud the center would looked very different as axis would had time to reduce pocket and would been badly extended.

I dont think a game who runs 230 turns should be decided in 1 attack on turn 17.

my 2c

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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls) - 6/22/2012 11:21:26 AM   
glvaca

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juret

if attack on the pz div east of moscow had succeded and big pocket had been opened before the mud the center would looked very different as axis would had time to reduce pocket and would been badly extended.

I dont think a game who runs 230 turns should be decided in 1 attack on turn 17.

my 2c

I think I said as much, the whole operation was one big gamble but it did pay of in the end. No risk no gain.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion off course. It's rather depressing from my point of view that you reach this conclusion and I would encourage you to read the AAR again. Maybe it will inspire you to reach a different conclusion. The game was not decided by one failed Soviet attack on turn 15; it was decided by a cummulation of events upto that point, leading to the Moscow pocket, and the disposition of the Russian forces and the disposition of German forces, leading to a lack of Soviet combat strength that could be brought to bear for that very important attack.

But don't let facts take you away from the Soviet biased point of view which is so fashionable on this forum.
I wonder why I actually do an AAR these days. Not to mention that there are very few Axis AAR's, very curious that...

< Message edited by glvaca -- 6/22/2012 11:47:30 PM >

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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls) - 6/22/2012 12:43:00 PM   
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Don't be put off, the AAR is great.I'm hoping you'll do one when you play MT.
I guess juret means the attack on turn 16 which never looked like succeeding anyway.I think your 'gamble' here is well worthwhile.By far the greater risk is to your opponent and that's the kind of gamble you have no option but to accept.It's kind of like T went all in at poker with a poor hand and you called him.

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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls) - 6/22/2012 1:01:41 PM   
Flaviusx


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The game was certainly not decided in a single turn. Tarhunnas has been in serious trouble for many turns and kept getting one pocket after the other. After a certain point these disasters became unrecoverable and just snowballed, and that point imo was reached several turns ago. The Moscow pocket is just dancing on the grave.

The in game Soviet Union does not have the capability to bounce back from such disastrous pockets in succession. The replacement pool is too small (4.5 million replacements or so in 1941, and this is what the vast majority of your reinforcements feed off, note that in real life the Soviets called up 5 million men to the colors by July alone, with more on the way) and units come back from the deadpile too slowly.



< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 6/22/2012 1:04:14 PM >


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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls) - 6/22/2012 1:38:56 PM   
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TD, you need to think about the changes that have gone on with the game as well and the effect they have had on defensive strategy along with countering current German tactics. The game has been under revision and the Russians are weaker in 1941 than they have been at almost any other point during the development that the public has seen.

The best analogy I have heard about the East front would be something I think Manstien mentioned and that he considered it a boxing match between a very skilled lighter weight boxer (Germany) and a powerful heavier brawler (Russia). We don't have that feel at all for the first two years of the game as in most cases, it is a lot of running by both sides, resulting in a very unsatisfactory experience. (IE, it isn't fun).

Until they fix certain underlying issues (logistics, the "trackmeet" feel for both sides, etc), the game is not going to be very good between two humans.


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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls) - 6/22/2012 1:40:28 PM   
Flaviusx


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Glvaca, if you're willing and have the time, I wouldn't mind a game. No braindead house rules, though (the ones you have in this game are acceptable, I don't do any of that cheese anyways.) Prefer random weather, indeed insist on it when playing somebody of your caliber. Not gonna lie, I think the random mud turns in summer of 41 are a necessary handicap at this point against a good enough Axis player given the state of the game's logistics.


< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 6/22/2012 1:59:25 PM >


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RE: Tackling the Russian bear (No Tarhunnas pls) - 6/22/2012 1:43:21 PM   
gids

 

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Great AAR and im sure tarhunnas will come back :) hes not easily put off

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