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Pledge for (forum) moderation - 6/4/2012 6:50:47 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4526
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
I am a memeber of the Matrixgames forum for nearly a decade now. Most of the time I spent here in the WitP AE, and previousely (mostly lurking)
in the WitP and UV subforums.

I have never met an online community, which combines the interest in a specific game and a dedication to a certain period in history with
general knowledge ranging from technical to historical expertise, the interest and ability to draw menaingful conclusions from a wide variety
of complex situation, and a huge collection of personal wisdom accumulated over their lives, such as this one.
Many here are older than me, there are not many internet communities where being 37 years old makes you a youngster.

I consider myself proud and chosen to be an accepted part of this place held together by the great game we are playing. We are truly a very
special bunch of people.

We are discussing a wide range of topics. Often there are different points of view, different approaches to problem solutions, and even different
understandings of reality - or what you would view as "fact". There is a different range of social skills, different levels of tolerance, different
native languages and a very long list of life experience that made every forum member the character he - or she - is today.

Lately I began to wonder why this forum sometimes brings out the worst in me. Usually I do not have any issues to ignore opinions in written
form I do not agree with. But sometimes this place just makes me want to insult. And TBH I don´t like this. Because it neither makes
me feel better, nor does it contribute to something worth of this community.
Part of the reason for this tendency is the feeling "if I don´t oppose A, noone else will" (irrational as it might be), and if I do not continue shouting
noone will notice that A is wrong (obviousely wrong from my personal POV, which does not mean it is really wrong). And if the namecalling
starts, noone steps in. Or at least noone with the authority to change anything.

This community is based on a common interest for a game, but also on different opinions resulting in interesting discussions. We all know some
people here we like and others we don´t. Usually there is a set of rules everyone has to live by which enables those who dislike each other
to share the same space without clashing. If those rules are not followed the violators are either steered in the right direction - or - independent
of their status and their history - prosecuted.

Thats how a society should work.

Here it does not. Currently it much depends on who shouts the loudest and has the longest breath. Or insults enough that the other simply leaves.

I really love this place here, it has always been a source of thought, and I hate to witness the greatest thinkers of this forum leaving because
they are not loudmouths enough to feel the need to survive in an unmoderated enviroment. There are so many gone, and many have voiced themselves
that the were leaving or reducing their time here to the absolute minimum because they do not feel comfortable in the general atmosphere.

Even though I hereby promise to at least attempt to moderate myself in certain situations, I pledge for forum moderation. There at least has
to be one or two officials monitoring the forums and showing presence. They need to be neutral and not entangled with this community.

If this doesn´t happen, I am sure many more will leave. Which will be a loss for all of us. I do not know if posting here does make its way to
Matrixgames, ´but I do believe this is the only place where such a pledge can be started - independent of a realistic chance for success or not.

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 6/4/2012 6:51:56 AM >


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Post #: 1
RE: Pledge for (forum) moderation - 6/4/2012 7:38:23 AM   
Roger Neilson 3


Posts: 436
Joined: 4/12/2012
From: Bedlington, Northumberland, UK
Status: offline
Well said.

I recall a time when there was a moderator presence which does seem to have diminished to almost zero these days. That's not a criticism, merely an observation that the moderation process has ended up being effectively one person.

Standards have dropped and one reason for that is the lack of moderators.

Is this because those who used to do it left, or got tired of it, or a conscious decision just to let things run....

Roger

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RE: Pledge for (forum) moderation - 6/4/2012 7:53:12 AM   
Capt Hornblower


Posts: 214
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There does seem to be a mechanism by which you can avoid looking at messages from people whom you find annoying: it's the little green button next to the BUDDY button at the bottom of each post.

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 3
RE: Pledge for (forum) moderation - 6/4/2012 8:22:41 AM   
Ddog

 

Posts: 206
Joined: 2/17/2005
From: Cincinnati, OH
Status: offline
Hey LoBaron!

I agree with you. I also want to commend you on how you deal with it.  I seen in one post about units sharing supply where a member was flat out being insulting.  You didn't get pulled in and kept your cool and it turned the situation around.  I almost said something but figured it would just throw fuel on the fire.

I'm not big on regulation of my freedom of speech, but I would like to see people who attack others to be censured.  I understand disagreement, but we can disagree without getting personal.

Cheers!

_____________________________

"If you can't take a joke, don't start a war."
Tail gunner, Enola Gay


(in reply to Capt Hornblower)
Post #: 4
RE: Pledge for (forum) moderation - 6/4/2012 9:52:58 AM   
YankeeAirRat


Posts: 624
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline
Well I am sorry for my actions and made my apologies over on a seperate thread to the offended parties.

That said, this is unfortunatly the internet and Godwin's Law does apply, along with the classic adage that "anyone can be anyone behind a computer screen", along with the other adage of "Some people just love to troll". I try very hard to not dislike anyone here on this forum and probably would be considered more of a lurker then anything else on this forum. Only rising when a thread interests me, which is as lurkers do. I also was taught years ago by a debate teacher that outside of the school enviroment or an official moderated scored debate tourney, one should understand the concept of "Sharp Elbows" when it comes to debate. The idea is that you need to be willing to take on some of the minor insults that people throw back at each other over a topic all while best staying on subject. Even before I heard it defined by Godwin's law, my debate teacher had stated someone can always tell when one of the debators is losing because they will immediately shift subject to more and more personal attacks or hide behind smoke and mirrors. So as a good debator you need to work on staying on topic even when they start to pull the Battle of the Dozens, which can be very hard to do at times. Sometimes too as I admitted to some others recently here, it is hard to seperate the anger that is real life from the online life.

LoBaron, I think your want to insult is because you can hide behind the anonymite of the computer screen and screen name. I am not blaming you, because there are times too where I feel I need to just come in tossing the insults out against some folks. I try very, very hard to watch what I do and yet I know that sometimes I loose it on a forum when real life interviens on my stress meter. Which is something that I have been seeing more and more of being debated in the news media from the media reporting on how socialogists are reviews how society has changed with Youtube, FB, Twitter and the constant on of society. To the philosphy and pyschology types debating the inner workings of the human heart and mind as it relates to the web and the constant online presences.



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Post #: 5
RE: Pledge for (forum) moderation - 6/4/2012 10:07:00 AM   
Ddog

 

Posts: 206
Joined: 2/17/2005
From: Cincinnati, OH
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: YankeeAirRat

LoBaron, I think your want to insult is because you can hide behind the anonymite of the computer screen and screen name.


Funny. I think the same principle applies in road rage.

_____________________________

"If you can't take a joke, don't start a war."
Tail gunner, Enola Gay


(in reply to YankeeAirRat)
Post #: 6
RE: Pledge for (forum) moderation - 6/4/2012 10:29:07 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 7885
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline
A friend of mine sent me this the other day:
http://www.sunjournal.com/news/columns-analysis/2012/05/31/leonard-pitts-internet-has-seamy-underbelly/1202913

seems apropos

Bill

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WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to Ddog)
Post #: 7
RE: Pledge for (forum) moderation - 6/4/2012 10:46:24 AM   
danlongman

 

Posts: 393
Joined: 3/27/2012
From: Over the hills and far away
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I know this all pleases soojan the spambot, my friend.
Mr Wilkes too and all the pets at the pet shop.
So much benefit and money saving is too!!
This is how soojan wishes for us to live in renovated kitchens!
Now I offer this haiku:

"I was a dickweed
On the internet webpage
How can I know peace?"

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"Patriotism: Your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." - George Bernard Shaw

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 8
RE: Pledge for (forum) moderation - 6/4/2012 1:41:11 PM   
USS America


Posts: 16078
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From: Apex, NC, USA
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I think part of the reason that otherwise reasonable posters on this forum over react when trolling starts is that, in general, the AE forums are a much more pleasant place to spend time than most other forums on the internet. I know I find myself wanting to shout, "Hey, we don't do that here!" at times. Of course that type of reaction is what trolls look for, and then it brings out all of the "free speech" preachers.

Good post, LoBaron, and a good reminder for us all to keep our cool.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to danlongman)
Post #: 9
RE: Pledge for (forum) moderation - 6/4/2012 1:43:12 PM   
USS America


Posts: 16078
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Apex, NC, USA
Status: offline
Ack! Double post.

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Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to danlongman)
Post #: 10
RE: Pledge for (forum) moderation - 6/4/2012 2:30:22 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

Posts: 1265
Joined: 2/17/2010
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It doesn't have to be that hard. If you think someone is a "troll", just ignore what he says as if he weren't posting at all. Not everyone agrees on which posters are "trolls"..., but everyone is free to ignore anyone he wants to. We don't have to have anyone banned..., if they are ignored long enough they'll go away on their own. If they don't, it's probably because other forum members don't think they are "trolls" and want to engage them in discussion. To each his own is the American way..., at least until some stinkin' politician finds a way to tax it or buy votes with it.

(in reply to USS America)
Post #: 11
RE: Pledge for (forum) moderation - 6/4/2012 2:42:09 PM   
oldman45


Posts: 2241
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline
When I was a site admin I made a simple rule, attack the idea, not the person. Pretty straight forward and leads to some great debates.

It wouldn't hurt if there was a bit more moderation on the part of Matrix.


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Post #: 12
RE: Pledge for (forum) moderation - 6/4/2012 3:07:39 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 7049
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
I posted this on this forum over six years ago. Why not again? If you are going to do it, at least do it right...

Posted Wed January 11 2006 15:52

The Twelve Commandments of Flaming
1. Make things up about your opponent: It's important to make your lies sound true. Preface your argument with the word "clearly." "Clearly, Fred Flooney is a liar, and a dirtball to boot."

2. Be an armchair psychologist: You're a smart person. You've heard of Freud. You took a psychology course in college. Clearly, you're qualified to psychoanalyze your opponent. "Polly Purebread, by using the word 'zucchini' in her posting, shows she has a bad case of ***** envy."

3. Cross-post your flames: Everyone on the net is just waiting for the next literary masterpiece to leave your terminal. From rec.arts.wobegon to alt.gourmand, they're all holding their breaths until your next flame. Therefore, post everywhere.

4. Conspiracies abound: If everyone's against you, the reason can't possibly be that you're a ****head. There's obviously a conspiracy against you, and you will be doing the entire net a favor by exposing it.

5. Lawsuit threats: This is the reverse of Rule #4 (sort of like the Yin & Yang of flaming). Threatening a lawsuit is always considered to be in good form. "By saying that I've posted to the wrong group, Bertha has libeled me, slandered me, and sodomized me. See you in court, Bertha."

6. Force them to document their claims: Even if Harry Hoinkus states outright that he likes tomato sauce on his pasta, you should demand documentation. If Newsweek hasn't written an article on Harry's pasta preferences, then Harry's obviously lying.

7. Use foreign phrases: French is good, but Latin is the lingua franca of flaming. You should use the words "ad hominem" at least three times per article. Other favorite Latin phrases are "ad nauseum," "vini, vidi, vici," and "fettuccini alfredo."

8. Tell 'em how smart you are: Why use intelligent arguments to convince them you're smart when all you have to do is tell them? State that you're a member of Mensa or Mega or Dorks of America. Tell them the scores you received on every exam since high school. "I got an 800 on my SATs, LSATs, GREs, MCATs, and I can also spell the word 'premeiotic'."

9. Accuse your opponent of censorship. It is your right as an American citizen to post whatever the hell you want to the net (as guaranteed by the 37th Amendment, I think). Anyone who tries to limit your cross-posting or move a flame war to email is either a communist, a fascist, or both.

10. Doubt their existence: You've never actually seen your opponent, have you? And since you're the center of the universe, you should have seen them by now, shouldn't you? Therefore, THEY DON'T EXIST! This is the beauty of flamers' logic.

11. Lie, cheat, steal, leave the toilet seat up.

12. When in doubt, insult: If you forget the other 11 rules, remember this one. At some point during your wonderful career as a flamer you will undoubtedly end up in a flame war with someone who is better than you. This person will expose your lies, tear apart your arguments, make you look generally like a bozo. At this point, there's only one thing to do: insult the dirtbag!!! "Oh yeah? Well, your mother does strange things with vegetables."



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Sigismund of Luxemburg

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Post #: 13
RE: Pledge for (forum) moderation - 6/4/2012 3:27:49 PM   
rockmedic109

 

Posts: 1981
Joined: 5/17/2005
From: Citrus Heights, CA
Status: offline
I use the Green Button Rule. If someone posts something I find inflamatory, trollish or a nuisance, I use the Green Button.

And I find myself pleased and hopeful that I have only used it a few times.

The passion for the subject matter, the game and history in general appears to be a unifying force on this forum. It's what makes this forum great. That same passion can also lead to rising tempers and the strong desire to engage others.

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 14
RE: Pledge for (forum) moderation - 6/4/2012 3:59:08 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 17862
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: offline
I hear you, LoBaron, and grapple myself with some of your concerns regularly on this forum. I'm only human and-against my better judgement-sometimes descend into the immoderation you describe.

I too apply the green button principle, as described by rockmedic109. I'll usually try to politely but pointedly change the tenor of the discussion "the first time", but will resort to the green button for repeated offenders.

It's too bad, but my list of green button recipients has grown over time. That's the only way that I can still enjoy this forum-by expunging the "contributions" of those most irksome members. Some say this is a cop-out, but it's what works for me.

I haven't regretted any of these green button assignees. After a while you get used to ignoring those that most irritate you and you can move on with your forum experience.

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Post #: 15
RE: Pledge for (forum) moderation - 6/4/2012 4:34:53 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7109
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

It doesn't have to be that hard. If you think someone is a "troll", just ignore what he says as if he weren't posting at all. Not everyone agrees on which posters are "trolls"..., but everyone is free to ignore anyone he wants to. We don't have to have anyone banned..., if they are ignored long enough they'll go away on their own. If they don't, it's probably because other forum members don't think they are "trolls" and want to engage them in discussion. To each his own is the American way..., at least until some stinkin' politician finds a way to tax it or buy votes with it.


If someone is annoying you, use the green button. I do and it prevents tons of stress and anger.

As we all know, trolls do what they do for attention...if I can't even read what they post, then I can't angrily respond to it and 'feed the troll'.

Self moderation is the first best policy.

PS: you left out regulate it.

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'When in doubt...attack!'

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Post #: 16
RE: Pledge for (forum) moderation - 6/4/2012 9:39:43 PM   
DivePac88


Posts: 3115
Joined: 10/9/2008
From: Somewhere in the South Pacific.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

Ack! Double post.


No it wasn't... you were launching a personnel attack on me, you were!


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When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
You understand now, Why you came this way

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Post #: 17
RE: Pledge for (forum) moderation - 6/4/2012 9:44:03 PM   
USS America


Posts: 16078
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From: Apex, NC, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88


quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

Ack! Double post.


No it wasn't... you were launching a personnel attack on me, you were!



Curses! Foiled again!

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to DivePac88)
Post #: 18
RE: Pledge for (forum) moderation - 6/4/2012 9:57:04 PM   
Roger Neilson 3


Posts: 436
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From: Bedlington, Northumberland, UK
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I know where the green button is, but that's a way for those who are seasoned veterans to ditch the rubbish. I'm worried about the newcomers who may find some of the comments and intolerance that is creeping into the forum a bit of a 'turn off'. maybe its my rose coloured spectacles, but I do think the standard has slipped in the last year or so.

Those who are grizzled veterans aren't the ones who need some defence against the trolls.

And on another level there's also the lack of discipline.... people posting in the wrong sub forum regularly.....

Roger

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Post #: 19
RE: Pledge for (forum) moderation - 6/4/2012 9:58:50 PM   
Roger Neilson 3


Posts: 436
Joined: 4/12/2012
From: Bedlington, Northumberland, UK
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And don't get me started on the need to found a new dynasty because no-one ever ever responds to simple problems over logging into the forum....

Roger

< Message edited by Roger Neilson 3 -- 6/4/2012 9:59:08 PM >


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RE: Pledge for (forum) moderation - 6/4/2012 9:59:51 PM   
DivePac88


Posts: 3115
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From: Somewhere in the South Pacific.
Status: offline
But on a serious note, there are at times some bad behaviour on this site, especially in the opponents wanted section. But I think that some of it can be excused, as we are only human.

Yes there has been a lack of moderator action on the site of late. But this has always been a reasonably behaved site, and perhaps they just give us some slack. Because I'm shore that if things get too out of hand, one will show up.

Also most of us can't help our writings, and we carry French and Norman blood.




Attachment (1)

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When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
You understand now, Why you came this way

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Post #: 21
RE: Pledge for (forum) moderation - 6/4/2012 10:02:53 PM   
Roger Neilson 3


Posts: 436
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From: Bedlington, Northumberland, UK
Status: offline
Hey Des, hope life is treating you well.

I recall when there was a whole slew of moderators in the forum. If you look now there's only one name against all the forums....

Don't know whether they all just packed in or someone took a policy decision to downsize.

Roger

< Message edited by Roger Neilson 3 -- 6/4/2012 10:03:11 PM >


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Post #: 22
RE: Pledge for (forum) moderation - 6/4/2012 10:07:53 PM   
USS America


Posts: 16078
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Apex, NC, USA
Status: offline
Except for the few Matrix employees who also had moderator authority but spent the vast majority of their time on other duties, all of the regular moderators were volunteers. As they have moved on over the years, there have been no replacements.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to Roger Neilson 3)
Post #: 23
RE: Pledge for (forum) moderation - 6/4/2012 10:12:15 PM   
Roger Neilson 3


Posts: 436
Joined: 4/12/2012
From: Bedlington, Northumberland, UK
Status: offline
Indeed, a shame there was no replacement policy.

Roger

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Post #: 24
RE: Pledge for (forum) moderation - 6/4/2012 10:23:55 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 9770
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
I haven't noticed any immoderation or problems to speak of in this forum....but I've been gone for three weeks.  You guys haven't lost control in the interval have you?  If so, I suspect it was the fault of Q-Ball.  He's a Yankee and is very good at doing the things that Yankees do best.  If it wasn't Q-Ball it was probably Poultry Lad or Bullwinkle.  They are Yankees too and given to similar conduct.

(in reply to Roger Neilson 3)
Post #: 25
RE: Pledge for (forum) moderation - 6/4/2012 10:24:39 PM   
danlongman

 

Posts: 393
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From: Over the hills and far away
Status: offline
There seems to be a fair bit of vigilante - ism.
Plus we need grammar police, non-english-first-language excused. (I guess that includes most americans.)
There, their and they're people!!!
cheers

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(in reply to Roger Neilson 3)
Post #: 26
RE: Pledge for (forum) moderation - 6/4/2012 10:56:40 PM   
DD696

 

Posts: 657
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From: near Savannah, Ga
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The reasons this forum appears to me to have lost any significant moderator support is due to:

1) The game is not producing enough monetary input to Matrix to continue with it's consistent support.

2) Mr. Wilkerson has primarily moved on to other projects.

3) Many of the main disruptions on this forum are caused by former AE team members: therefore they seem to have immunity and act with impunity and, at times, downright arrogance. Still waiting to know if you want a copy of my DD-214, JWE? But, I guess, you have a method of procuring them whenever you want - however illegal that may be.

As I said not long ago and was criticized by some, the punks are running wild.

I do not think this forum will ever be moderated in the manner in which it should.

_____________________________

USMC: 1970-1977.

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Post #: 27
RE: Pledge for (forum) moderation - 6/4/2012 11:28:19 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 8324
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Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DD696

The reasons this forum appears to me to have lost any significant moderator support is due to:

1) The game is not producing enough monetary input to Matrix to continue with it's consistent support.

2) Mr. Wilkerson has primarily moved on to other projects.

3) Many of the main disruptions on this forum are caused by former AE team members: therefore they seem to have immunity and act with impunity and, at times, downright arrogance. Still waiting to know if you want a copy of my DD-214, JWE? But, I guess, you have a method of procuring them whenever you want - however illegal that may be.

As I said not long ago and was criticized by some, the punks are running wild.
I do not think this forum will ever be moderated in the manner in which it should.


The two bolded lines taken in tanden are, if nothing else, a bit hilarious. Give the DD-214 thing a rest, will ya?

For everybody else, how about a group hug and get back to destroying the Japanese Empire?

If you can't do that, look up the Net definition of "troll." It's not "somebody I disagree with." I've been on Usenet about every day since 1992 and what is called trolling here is, with about five mostly banned exceptions, laughably not.

If you're still mad after that, insult me. Mooses got big shoulders. Let the rest of it go, OK? People said things, people are sorry.

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The Moose

(in reply to DD696)
Post #: 28
RE: Pledge for (forum) moderation - 6/5/2012 12:01:07 AM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 17862
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

For everybody else, how about a group hug and get back to destroying the Japanese Empire?


HEY!

quote:


If you're still mad after that, insult me. Mooses got big shoulders.


OK-have it your way, long-eared rubber nosed swamp donkey Allied Fanboi!

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Post #: 29
RE: Pledge for (forum) moderation - 6/5/2012 12:03:31 AM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 17862
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: offline
What's everyone got against the USS Tracy (DD-214) anyways?

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Post #: 30
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