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All the fuel you ever want - For free!

 
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All the fuel you ever want - For free! - 5/31/2012 11:46:33 PM   
Michael T


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This is a huge loophole in the rules I discovered yesterday in my lunch break. While pondering the supply model I re read the rules for some revision. And read this:

20.4.4. Return of Excess Supply
If a non-HQ unit, to include air base and rail repair units, has 200 percent or more of a type of supply on hand, it will return them to the HQ unit to which it is attached. An air base units must be within 15 hexes of its HQ unit to return excess supply, while all other units must be within 10 hexes. This return of excess supply cannot occur if either the unit or its HQ unit is currently isolated.



This got me thinking about Army airbases. What would happen if I sent all my Army recon planes to reserve? What would happen to the excess fuel on these air bases? Well it all goes to the Army level HQ, inc Panzer Armies.

I ran a test. After a little tinkering I managed to get well over 3000 tons of gas in to Pz Grp 3 around Smolensk on turn 4. I attached every Pz/Mot Division in the group. Next turn I had an entire Panzer Army fuelled up to near enough to 100% and still had over 1500 tons of gas in the HQ. And not one HQBU used or truck wasted.

Then with some shuffling of recon planes between Pz Grp airbases every 2nd turn I managed to get every Pz Grp HQ up to over 3000 tons of fuel, and maintain that continuous state right up to Moscow and beyond.

I can't imaging anyone actually doing this because it would be a super duper mega cheese, dare I say cheating. It makes muling look like chicken feed.

This is not a bug because it's clearly written in the rules, but it needs to be fixed ASAP. It's totally unacceptable and I am very surprised it has not been uncovered till now.




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RE: All the fuel you ever want - For free! - 6/1/2012 12:11:25 AM   
Joel Billings


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Good find, thanks. It should get on the list and get fixed somehow in the next release. Until then, players should not take advantage of this as it was not intended as a way of resupplying your HQs.

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RE: All the fuel you ever want - For free! - 6/1/2012 12:31:21 AM   
Marquo


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"I can't imaging anyone actually doing this because it would be a super duper mega cheese, dare I say cheating. It makes muling look like chicken feed."

More and more I find myself drawn back to cardboard counters, a map and dice. I can imagine someone doing this; ****, I may have done it 100 times already inadvertently everytime I sent my airforce back to the National Reserve for the blizzard, etc.

Marquo

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RE: All the fuel you ever want - For free! - 6/1/2012 4:00:45 AM   
randallw

 

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Now Michael T will never have to stop for gas!

(in reply to Marquo)
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RE: All the fuel you ever want - For free! - 6/1/2012 9:43:14 AM   
redmarkus4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

More and more I find myself drawn back to cardboard counters, a map and dice.

Marquo


+1

I actually got my GDW game boxes out of the cupboard last week. They are sitting on my table

< Message edited by redmarkus4 -- 6/1/2012 9:46:13 AM >


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RE: All the fuel you ever want - For free! - 6/1/2012 11:32:26 AM   
elmo3

 

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Added to the list as BG0074 and moved to the tech support forum.

< Message edited by elmo3 -- 6/1/2012 7:22:08 PM >


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RE: All the fuel you ever want - For free! - 6/1/2012 5:21:45 PM   
glvaca

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

"I can't imaging anyone actually doing this because it would be a super duper mega cheese, dare I say cheating. It makes muling look like chicken feed."

More and more I find myself drawn back to cardboard counters, a map and dice. I can imagine someone doing this; ****, I may have done it 100 times already inadvertently everytime I sent my airforce back to the National Reserve for the blizzard, etc.

Marquo


Bwoaf, it's a bug like others.
Good show of Micheal for reporting it though!

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RE: All the fuel you ever want - For free! - 6/1/2012 5:42:48 PM   
gids

 

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+1

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RE: All the fuel you ever want - For free! - 6/1/2012 5:50:04 PM   
juret

 

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dont share these things plz.. use it to smash the sov fanboys dominating these pages

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RE: All the fuel you ever want - For free! - 6/1/2012 6:21:26 PM   
Farfarer

 

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Noted this before, but I always assumed AVGAS was separate and never thought of grounding the LW and diverting their gas to Army. Now as Soviet, this could be used to get to Poland in the 1941 Blizzard as there are large numbers of airbases which can be cheaply attached to Fronts. Thinking about it, after 1941, this is a deadly logistics bypass for the Red Army.

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RE: All the fuel you ever want - For free! - 6/1/2012 10:13:49 PM   
Marquo


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Ah, the smell of freshly clipped carboard counters....

Marquo

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RE: All the fuel you ever want - For free! - 6/1/2012 10:19:39 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juret

dont share these things plz.. use it to smash the sov fanboys dominating these pages


And to smah the complaining axis fanboys in return.

Ahhh, all those airfields I no longer need....

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RE: All the fuel you ever want - For free! - 6/1/2012 10:21:54 PM   
Helpless


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quote:

Now as Soviet, this could be used to get to Poland in the 1941 Blizzard as there are large numbers of airbases which can be cheaply attached to Fronts.


No, you can't.

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RE: All the fuel you ever want - For free! - 6/2/2012 9:35:25 PM   
Farfarer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:

Now as Soviet, this could be used to get to Poland in the 1941 Blizzard as there are large numbers of airbases which can be cheaply attached to Fronts.


No, you can't.
[/quote

Do you mean they can't be cheaply attached ( thye can, see screen shot) or you cannot harvest the fuel?




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RE: All the fuel you ever want - For free! - 6/3/2012 3:52:41 PM   
Helpless


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You cannot attach them legally. Unless you disband the Air HQ. But in this case all air units will fail all the rolls. The fuel won't be so cheap. Advance provided is very questionable.

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RE: All the fuel you ever want - For free! - 6/3/2012 9:21:53 PM   
Farfarer

 

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Ah. Never actually tried this for Soviets or Axis, unlikely to have the time to check on it's utility before it is patched away anyway. The Reds start with lots disbandable HQs, lots of planes ( well all really ) you don't care whether they pass any rolls, and you just want to shuttle them in - out to use this gas exploit. Moot point now anyway.

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RE: All the fuel you ever want - For free! - 7/9/2012 10:13:19 AM   
Pelton

 

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I love the game and the hard work put into it, but this is a hoho so simple thing that anyone simply reading the rules before playing can see.

How these things get over looked again and again shows that more poeple who think out side the box need to be part of play testing the game long before it goes gold.

This is an exploit not a bug. An over looked loop hole in the rules

Its old news to a few and a new discovery to most.

Again EVERYONE including the devs really need to take 4 to 6 hours and read the rule book they might "discover" other exploits for both sides.


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RE: All the fuel you ever want - For free! - 7/9/2012 11:00:39 AM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

I love the game and the hard work put into it, but this is a hoho so simple thing that anyone simply reading the rules before playing can see.

...


Hardly. The game was out about 18 months before MichaelT found the exploit.


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RE: All the fuel you ever want - For free! - 7/10/2012 12:48:28 AM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

I love the game and the hard work put into it, but this is a hoho so simple thing that anyone simply reading the rules before playing can see.

...


Hardly. The game was out about 18 months before MichaelT found the exploit.



Others knew of it long ago.

Seeing its is a rule why would I or anyone esle thats known of it for months even think of it as an exploit or for that matter anything specail at all? Its in the rule book in black and white. MT just discoveryed it heheheheheheh

A discovery? Hehehehe

An 18th month old discovery to me and a few others.

I find it amazing that something thats a rule is seen as a bug or that its some kind of revelation.

Like I said, "spend some time reading the rules and you might just discover a few other "new" revelations."

MT supply system was better then mine (muling, air HQ's, ect) but now with the nerfs my base system is back on top.

It has much more risk and reward. It has a down side, but rule changes in 1.05 and 1.06 have improved it. Both the down side and the reward side.

Again I really love the game and keep coming back with something new after each patch.

I still have allot of tweeking to do to the supply system, C&C, ect ect.

25 games later and I still am learning new stuff with every game and AAR I read. To be totally honest I still have not read the hole rule book. After playing vs the computer a few times I quickly relized what 75% of the game was all about and have been spending most of my time unlocking that box.

By far the best game I have played to date and worth much much more then its cost.

At some point when my 3 kids are all in collage( 1 yr) I might by WITP. Unless of course WiTW is out.

The more complex the game, the higher the chances are that there will be loop holes to drive supplies and other things through

Pelton



_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

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RE: All the fuel you ever want - For free! - 7/10/2012 2:37:40 AM   
Seminole


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quote:

I find it amazing that something thats a rule is seen as a bug or that its some kind of revelation.


This is an exploit, not a bug. Something that is working as designed, but not being used as designed or intended (looping air bases through the national reserve as extra supply depots).
In the little bit I've dabbled in software testing (not games, mind you) most of the effort goes into making sure things work the way they're supposed to.
'Misuse' has almost infinite variables.
The bosses want a 'fool proof' system and I always tried to explain one can easily underestimate the ingenuity of fools.
In this case players want a 'gamey proof' system, but the ingenuity of players can be underestimated.
Folks interested in a good game will bring these issues to the attention of developers.
Folks more interested in win/loss records will keep them to themselves.

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RE: All the fuel you ever want - For free! - 7/10/2012 2:47:38 AM   
Michael T


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I just want to make it clear, that I reported this as soon as *I* discovered it. I never used it in a game and never would.

If other people knew of it then I think that they should have reported it. But I am not them.

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RE: All the fuel you ever want - For free! - 7/10/2012 10:19:32 AM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

I find it amazing that something thats a rule is seen as a bug or that its some kind of revelation.


This is an exploit, not a bug. Something that is working as designed, but not being used as designed or intended (looping air bases through the national reserve as extra supply depots).
In the little bit I've dabbled in software testing (not games, mind you) most of the effort goes into making sure things work the way they're supposed to.
'Misuse' has almost infinite variables.
The bosses want a 'fool proof' system and I always tried to explain one can easily underestimate the ingenuity of fools.
In this case players want a 'gamey proof' system, but the ingenuity of players can be underestimated.
Folks interested in a good game will bring these issues to the attention of developers.
Folks more interested in win/loss records will keep them to themselves.


As we know all poeple have thier "personal options".

Was "gamey" 1v1=2v1? Russian players thought it was not and exploited the rule to death as has been posted on thread after thread before it was findly nerfed.

Was gamey muling? I came forward with that long before it was finaly nerfed in AAR after AAR. I even play tested it vs Flaviusx long before it was nerfed.

Was gamey spam bombing air bases Seminole or is spam bombing a single hex over and over before conducting a ground assault or is using the LW's bombers as transports instead of bombers for 95% of the game "gamey"?

Is gamey the Lvov pocket? Is gamey running for the hills as russian player? Is gamey railing forward some russian factories so they can be captured by germans to save on supplies gamey(Flaviusx)? Is gamey building wall after wall of forts? I am and others can go on and on with gamey tactics, loopholes ect ect.

If these things are gamey then I guess Seminole everyone is a fool guilty of being only conserned with winning and losing.

I have come forward with allot of things in the past only to be ignored or scorned by "one side" when this game came out long ago and most of these things have been nerfed now.

Coming forward with something thats in the rules is not a discovery, was the misuse of 1v1=2v1 a discovery? No and No.

If something is printed in black and white its hardly a revelation, its there by design.

Static mode is there by design is it not?

Anyways I not going to claim I am a saint like some others and claim some poeple are being gamey while I use gamey tactics.

I think most are guilty of being gamey.

We just like to think we are not as bad as the other guy, because we are less gamey Saint Seminole.

Pelton





< Message edited by Pelton -- 7/10/2012 10:30:05 AM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Seminole)
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RE: All the fuel you ever want - For free! - 7/10/2012 1:11:35 PM   
rrbill

 

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If its in the rules, then its part of the game. This policy doesn't mean the rules can't be improved. A good discussion of "gamey" moves is instructive to me at least, and I can always adjust my gaming to use or not use the feature.

Always good to improve one's approach to playing.

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RE: All the fuel you ever want - For free! - 7/10/2012 4:49:30 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

Was "gamey" 1v1=2v1? Russian players thought it was not and exploited the rule to death as has been posted on thread after thread before it was findly nerfed.


CV is an abstraction. Go to a nearby army base and ask a division commander what his 'CV' is.
The idea that 2v1 is enough to dislodge someone is just a rule set decision (why not 3v1?) to try and create play balance.
1v1 was instituted because in order to facilitate the Barbarossa blitzkrieg the Soviets were weak as kittens. To try and play balance their ability to mass and strike back, but still permit the blitzkrieg, the 1v1 rule was created. When it was discovered, through play testing, to be an overcompensation it was limited, again to improve play balance.
There's nothing sacred about 2v1 or 1v1 or 1000v1. These are just game rules intended to produce a desired (and plausible) outcome.

quote:

Was gamey muling? I came forward with that long before it was finaly nerfed in AAR after AAR. I even play tested it vs Flaviusx long before it was nerfed.


Is "muling" switching units between HQs to chain HQBUs? If HQBUs are limited by rule, and you look for a way to circumvent that rule, that strikes me as a text book example of an exploit. I hold the spirit of the law over the letter of the law. If you're devoting your energy to getting around the spirit of the rules instead of playing within the spirit of the rules, why have rules? To see who is the best lawyer?

quote:

Was gamey spam bombing air bases


I don't know enough about its efficacy to comment accurately. Is spam bombing exploiting an aspect of the air war game engine to achieve a specific result. Tell me what you think 'spam bombing' is, what is accomplishes, and why it accomplishes this and I can better answer your question (if you're looking for an answer).

quote:

Seminole or is spam bombing a single hex over and over before conducting a ground assault


Perhaps in the same sense that the prelude to Operation Cobra was gamey. But really neither side in the east could mount a similar air campaign. I think the marginal utility of additional air attacks should be lessened. In my view the shock and disruption of the 2nd or 3rd airstrike should be more than the 28th, 29th, etc.

quote:

or is using the LW's bombers as transports instead of bombers for 95% of the game "gamey"?


To what extent was this accomplished in the war?
I know in Desert Storm the U.S. airlifted a large fuel depot in behind Iraqi lines to refuel the 'left hook', but did the LW do things like this in the war? Could they? My thought is the air supply was meant to allow for situations like the resupply of the Stalingrad pocket, not to create an aerial Red Ball Express. I grok flying supplies in to surrounded troops (and agree with those who think the game engine is too harsh on the CV of pocketed units), but could Goering's LW actually do what some German players do with the game engine?

quote:

Is gamey the Lvov pocket?


I think so. It's really just exploiting the IgoUgo aspect of the game engine. The whole notion of a 'scripted' first turn for the Germans is kind of farcical. They had done a lot of recon, but even they were surprised how many Russians they kept running into. The 20/20 foresight Germans players enter the first turn with amplifies the IgoUgo issue.
Road to Moscow was a game design to try and ameliorate this, but it never hit the shelves.
The 'Rumanian Activation' aspect is part of why Lvov is gamey.
For me at this point the game doesn't really start until after turn 2 when the soviets can finally move whatever is left of the Red Army. The German player is essentially playing the AI before that.

quote:

Is gamey running for the hills as russian player?


If Barclay was a gamey Scot, then yes. Otherwise it is a strategy, not new to Russia, that a player operating with the hindsight of history is utilizing. No more or less gamey than redistributing Pz Corps to emphasize AGN or AGS. I think the game was created for people to try different strategies than those historically employed.

quote:

Is gamey railing forward some russian factories so they can be captured by germans to save on supplies gamey(Flaviusx)?


Yeah, I think it is. It's really people trying to tweak the production system when the designers explicitly didn't include that feature in the game. I try to move back every factory that I reasonably can, and that's why I don't 'run for the hills'.

quote:

Is gamey building wall after wall of forts? I am and others can go on and on with gamey tactics, loopholes ect ect.


I don't think that is gamey. Rules have been tweaked to try and play balance them, but I don't mind players exploring different strategies in this regard. Hitler was always annoyed his generals in the East seemed to constantly be looking over their shoulder at a shorter line just behind them, but his WWI experience also caused him to rely to greatly on fortifications with such lines in the West. You should read Stolfi's Hitler's Panzers East, I think you'd enjoy his take on the 'Bunker Fuhrer', and wasted opportunities.

quote:

I have come forward with allot of things in the past only to be ignored or scorned by "one side" when this game came out long ago and most of these things have been nerfed now.
Coming forward with something thats in the rules is not a discovery, was the misuse of 1v1=2v1 a discovery? No and No.
If something is printed in black and white its hardly a revelation, its there by design.


The issue isn't whether it is there, it is whether it is being used as envisioned, or being exploited in a manner not initially conceived to confer an advantage not considered. I think a reasonable person can tell the difference.
I think you can tell the difference.
I think that is why it touched a nerve.
I'm interested in making a better game. MichaelT is obviously interested in making a better game.
What are you interested in?

< Message edited by Seminole -- 7/10/2012 4:53:33 PM >

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Post #: 24
RE: All the fuel you ever want - For free! - 7/10/2012 11:14:53 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

The issue isn't whether it is there, it is whether it is being used as envisioned, or being exploited in a manner not initially conceived to confer an advantage not considered. I think a reasonable person can tell the difference.


Your option differs from mine on what is considered gamey, withen the rules and grey areas. Which I am sure other poeple option's will be different. I respect other poeple options. I might strongly disagree, but thats there option. We will all have different options on what is envisioned or what is an exploit or what was is or might be concieved to confer an advantage.

See that our option as players. What one person considers "reasonable" might be considered extreme by the next.

Thats why the burden is 100% on the designers and not the players to write the rules so that their product(The Game) doesn't have exploits and is played as they initially conceived.

I think how one person "tells the difference" is very different from one person to the next to the next to the next. Thats why games have rules. The players play withen the rules by design.

quote:

I think that is why it touched a nerve.


The key word being you think, again thats your option, but just a guess. I can respect that, but I disagree.

quote:

I'm interested in making a better game.


So aren't we all, but each players option on what would make a better game is different from one player to the next. Thats why the rules that are spelled out in the game manual are so important. Agian the burden is on the designers not the players to make the rules. The players simply play withen the rule sets.

quote:

MichaelT is obviously interested in making a better game.


I am thinking this is not a revelation, but that my option.

quote:

What are you interested in?


I am interested in a better game. It has become better and better with each patch. Thats why I have been posting info on issues in my option that are exploits for over a year.


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Seminole)
Post #: 25
RE: All the fuel you ever want - For free! - 7/11/2012 12:25:50 AM   
Seminole


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quote:

We will all have different options on what is envisioned or what is an exploit or what was is or might be concieved to confer an advantage.


The word you're looking for is opinion.
And there is an arbiter, his name is in the title of the game. The quick response to this exploit indicates to me this was unintended.
Do you think this was actually meant as a way for players to fuel dump HQs?
In your first post you wrote: "This is an exploit not a bug. An over looked loop hole in the rules"

quote:

Thats why the burden is 100% on the designers and not the players to write the rules so that their product(The Game) doesn't have exploits and is played as they initially conceived.


You're giving short shrift to just how complex a system this game is, and how the misuse of a single aspect can have unintended consequences. As I said before, iterations of misuse are practically limitless (you even acknowledged that increasing complexity means more likelihood for an exploit) in even a moderately complex system. Most testing focuses on making sure things work like they should.
The burden is on them to fix it, while the burden is on players to point out exploits.

quote:

So aren't we all


I wonder when I read:

quote:

A discovery? Hehehehe
An 18th month old discovery to me and a few others.
I find it amazing that something thats a rule is seen as a bug or that its some kind of revelation.


It's not the rule that is a revelation, it is the potential for misuse that was a revelation to the designers.

Did you think the designers intended for sending air groups to reserve to become an extra supply source?

If you built a record on exploiting loopholes in the rules I want to be the first to congratulate you on being the best lawyer in the WitE community.

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 26
RE: All the fuel you ever want - For free! - 7/11/2012 2:08:40 AM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5859
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

It's not the rule that is a revelation, it is the potential for misuse that was a revelation to the designers.

Did you think the designers intended for sending air groups to reserve to become an extra supply source?

If you built a record on exploiting loopholes in the rules I want to be the first to congratulate you on being the best lawyer in the WitE community.


Thats your opinion. There are many ways that the supply system can be messed with on both sides that I am sure were not intended that can be considered exploits or loopholes.

I play by the rules. I do not right the rules.

How it could not have been seen for what it clearly was for the last 18 months or during beta is a revelation in an of itself.

20.4.4. Return of Excess Supply
If a non-HQ unit, to include air base and rail repair units, has 200 percent or more of a type of supply on hand, it will return them to the HQ unit to which it is attached. An air base units must be within 15 hexes of its HQ unit to return excess supply, while all other units must be within 10 hexes. This return of excess supply cannot occur if either the unit or its HQ unit is currently isolated.

Its plain as day.

Again as I have stated for a very long time, thats why its important to have poeple beta testing that think out side the box a little.

So your not patching out "exploits" for several years after the product has gone gold. You can focus on game balance, bugs ect ect.

Thats my option, heheheeh





_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Seminole)
Post #: 27
RE: All the fuel you ever want - For free! - 7/11/2012 2:34:15 AM   
Seminole


Posts: 492
Joined: 7/28/2011
Status: offline
Did you think the designers intended for sending air groups to reserve to become an extra supply source?

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 28
RE: All the fuel you ever want - For free! - 7/11/2012 10:37:32 AM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5859
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

Did you think the designers intended for sending air groups to reserve to become an extra supply source?



2. Rule Change (Section 20.4.4) – Excess supplies will be sent back to friendly cities instead of to HQs.

Did this fix the issue or simply make a new one?

I nor you can read the devs minds, we can only play by the rules.

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Seminole)
Post #: 29
RE: All the fuel you ever want - For free! - 7/11/2012 2:52:43 PM   
Seminole


Posts: 492
Joined: 7/28/2011
Status: offline
I'm asking your opinion.

Did you think the designers intended for sending air groups to reserve to become an extra supply source?

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 30
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