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Volksturm?

 
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Volksturm? - 5/30/2012 12:07:05 AM   
Naughteous Maximus


Posts: 141
Joined: 3/9/2010
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline 		How come there are no Volksturm militia units in this game as support units? There should be a trigger that as soon as the Russians cross into Germany, the Volksturm are activated. Is this possible?




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RE: Volksturm? - 5/30/2012 12:13:21 AM   
TulliusDetritus

 

Posts: 3810
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: Back to Reality :(
Status: offline 		Like the activation of Kamikazes in WitP AE, eh? You are indeed 100% correct.

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RE: Volksturm? - 5/30/2012 12:14:18 AM   
Farfarer

 

Posts: 661
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline 		He gets a Panzerschreck - elite Volksturm I guess ( now someone offended will post about Panzershreck distribution as that was their Master's thesis :)

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RE: Volksturm? - 5/30/2012 2:52:21 AM   
hfarrish

 

Posts: 522
Joined: 1/3/2011
Status: offline
Ha - I guess we need to see a few games get that far so we can start analyzing it with the same passion as '41. I would agree, if the Volksturm makes no appearance that seems like an oversight. Support units could be a good fix, since we don't want to expand the loathe brigades...

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RE: Volksturm? - 5/30/2012 3:17:02 AM   
danlongman

 

Posts: 301
Joined: 3/27/2012
From: Over the hills and far away
Status: offline 		I do not have WITE yet. Do you get to loot and pillage Germany when you get there?
Can you get some subs in the Baltic to torpedo refugee ships? It was arguably the Baltic Fleet's greatest triumph.
Every now and then it rattles the hell out of me when I remember some of these things in games took place
only a few years before I was born. When I was a kid I knew a family that had come from East Prussia to Canada.
I am sorta glad I did not know what that meant then. Is it not wonderful that our electronic carnage is gone with
the flip of a switch? Now..back to pretending to break things and hurt people.
cheers

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RE: Volksturm? - 5/30/2012 4:47:01 PM   
cavalry

 

Posts: 1727
Joined: 9/2/2003
From: Blackboys East Sussex UK
Status: offline 		The suffering ( pillage and destruction then the de population ) of East Prussia is perhaps the most terrible single event of 20th C in terms of its ferocity and affect on the civlilian population. There is a new book about the post war atrocities and deportations just come out but I cannot remember the title.

As for the VS , every town had them and they killed a lot of Russian armour. They could be added to say German units defending town and city hexes?? Yes by most accounts they had tons of AT weapons.

< Message edited by cavalry -- 5/30/2012 4:48:46 PM >

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RE: Volksturm? - 5/30/2012 7:54:06 PM   
Tarhunnas


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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

The suffering ( pillage and destruction then the de population ) of East Prussia is perhaps the most terrible single event of 20th C in terms of its ferocity and affect on the civlilian population.


Eh...so the Germans invading every country within reach and shooting and exterminating the populaton of large tracts of Eastern Europe pales in comparison? Not that two wrongs make a wrong, and there is no excuse for atrocities from any side, but the Germans did reap the whirlwind they had sown themselves.

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RE: Volksturm? - 5/31/2012 12:32:01 AM   
Naughteous Maximus


Posts: 141
Joined: 3/9/2010
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline 		Your right there! The Germans got exactly what they deserved yet I will still play them in wargames because their the underdog later in the war.

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RE: Volksturm? - 5/31/2012 12:54:46 AM   
Farfarer

 

Posts: 661
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline 		Just to bring things back on track...

I was watching a documenetary on Red Army tank riders, created ( I think ) not so much like Pz Gren, but specifically to counter the Panzerfaust threat. While motivated to explain their importance, these ageing soldiers were clear that the ubiqitous shaped charged weapon, with a 30 m range, forced some changes.

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RE: Volksturm? - 5/31/2012 12:59:50 AM   
danlongman

 

Posts: 301
Joined: 3/27/2012
From: Over the hills and far away
Status: offline 		While it is true that two wrongs do not make a right, three do.

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RE: Volksturm? - 5/31/2012 3:38:04 AM   
hfarrish

 

Posts: 522
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Notwithstanding the above (and I agree with Tarhunnas, the Germans absolutely got what was coming to them), the book "Battleground Prussia" by Prit Buttar is a great read on the subject; really puts what to the west is a forgotten theater and an unknown amount of appalling suffering to light. The case of the Wilhelm Gustoff is particularly interesting - having access to Russian TV this is still highlighted as a great success in Russia.

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RE: Volksturm? - 5/31/2012 3:40:39 AM   
RedBunny

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 12/8/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

Just to bring things back on track...

I was watching a documenetary on Red Army tank riders, created ( I think ) not so much like Pz Gren, but specifically to counter the Panzerfaust threat. While motivated to explain their importance, these ageing soldiers were clear that the ubiqitous shaped charged weapon, with a 30 m range, forced some changes.



I worked with an older gentleman who saw the cover of a WW2 book I was reading. Turns out he with about 10 in 1945 and was 'enlisted' in the army. He was equiped with one Panzerfaust and was ordered (with several other 'soldiers') to guard a road crossing from some approaching Americans. Well, whoever issued the order left and and the group surrendered at the first site of American tanks. Before this he also remembers making his way eastward with his mother and a bunch of other refugees and being buzzed frequently (and strafed rarely) by American planes.

Sure glad I didn't live in those times.

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RE: Volksturm? - 5/31/2012 9:17:43 AM   
Naughteous Maximus


Posts: 141
Joined: 3/9/2010
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline 		I'm wondering how this request about the Volksturm ended up as a discussion over the Panzerschreck and commited atrocities?




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RE: Volksturm? - 5/31/2012 12:21:09 PM   
cavalry

 

Posts: 1727
Joined: 9/2/2003
From: Blackboys East Sussex UK
Status: offline 		The point for me is that although the Germans carried out many bad acts for sure and they were held to account and punished. Fair enough.

The Russians committed as many ( before during and after the war ) but have you ever heard of any Russian commanders or anyone for that matter tried at the end of the war?

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RE: Volksturm? - 5/31/2012 1:58:33 PM   
notenome

 

Posts: 598
Joined: 12/28/2009
Status: offline 		Yes but the Russians didn't conduct ethnic cleansing in East Prussia, which the Germans did all occupied nations of the Eastern Front.

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RE: Volksturm? - 5/31/2012 3:45:07 PM   
bjmorgan


Posts: 2905
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From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: notenome

Yes but the Russians didn't conduct ethnic cleansing in East Prussia, which the Germans did all occupied nations of the Eastern Front.

You're right. The Russian ethnic cleasing was in Ukraine.

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RE: Volksturm? - 5/31/2012 3:46:43 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5761
Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: online 		Lot of highly selective outrage going on in this topic...



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RE: Volksturm? - 5/31/2012 4:20:38 PM   
RCH


Posts: 176
Joined: 1/19/2011
Status: offline 		Selective?

Some of the worst atrocities committed in our modern time was conducted by Nazi Germany and the USSR.

Both are guilty of genocide, mass murder, the lose of personal freedoms and dignity of individuals, barbarism, propaganda, neither had any respect for human life.

Both systems imposed ideologies on their own populations and those same ideologies were used to justify the actions taken against people and populations that came under their direct control.

It is true that Poland was conquered in 1939 and did not throw off the yoke of oppression until 1989.

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RE: Volksturm? - 5/31/2012 7:02:49 PM   
Naughteous Maximus


Posts: 141
Joined: 3/9/2010
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline 		I can't believe my thread was hijacked! I do not care about the atrocities committed by both sides. Atrocities is the norm in a war, it always happens given time. Its been happening for thousands of years and will continue to happen in the future regardless on humanities evolution. Can I get some real feedback from the makers of this game in regards to the Volksturm? Is it possible to include the Volksturm in the game and implement a trigger for their activation?

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Post #: 19
RE: Volksturm? - 5/31/2012 7:39:27 PM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 4780
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline 		Agree that a few people are way off topic in this thread. Not sure how hard it would be to add Volksturm to the WitE, but if it is not practical then it would be worth considering for WitE 2.

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RE: Volksturm? - 5/31/2012 10:11:10 PM   
Naughteous Maximus


Posts: 141
Joined: 3/9/2010
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline 		Thanks Elmo for the reply.

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RE: Volksturm? - 5/31/2012 10:50:30 PM   
rogo727


Posts: 974
Joined: 7/12/2011
From: Iowa
Status: offline 		Side bar. Volksturm should be volksgrenadier divisions. The term which means people's grenadier.. The 6th,9th,12th,16th,26th,31st36th,45th,47th,48th,56th,62nd,79th,95th,98th,167th,183rd,211th,212th,217th,246th,251st,257th,271st,272nd,276th,277th infantry divisions became volksgrenadier divisions. They should be not confused with the type 44 infantry divisions. These units never just popped up. And it was no honor to have your division renamed a volksgrenadier division. The Germans did create the 18th and 19th volksgrenadier divisions which had a lot fewer men and firepower than a regular German infantry division.

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RE: Volksturm? - 5/31/2012 11:42:37 PM   
Naughteous Maximus


Posts: 141
Joined: 3/9/2010
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline 		@ rogo727, Volksgrenadier divisions are in the game. Volksturm militia (Battalion size) support units are not. It probably won't make much of a difference in battle, but I would like to have them in because of the part they played in the war historically.

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RE: Volksturm? - 5/31/2012 11:57:34 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 1442
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline 		It was pointed out awhile ago that the Soviets don't have all the SUs they had in reality because there were not enough free slots in the program.

I would hazard to say it's the same for the Axis.

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RE: Volksturm? - 6/1/2012 12:07:06 AM   
rogo727


Posts: 974
Joined: 7/12/2011
From: Iowa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Naughteous Maximus

@ rogo727, Volksgrenadier divisions are in the game. Volksturm militia (Battalion size) support units are not. It probably won't make much of a difference in battle, but I would like to have them in because of the part they played in the war historically.

I bought this game but never made in past turn four. Sorry. Can i ask the new scenarios are they a lot faster?

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RE: Volksturm? - 6/1/2012 12:20:37 AM   
el hefe


Posts: 2858
Joined: 10/28/2002
Status: offline 		This is not the case. The 1944 Campaign has all of the Soviet SUs that existed in the order of battle and there are still plenty of slots.

For the Volksturm, there are at least a dozen hastily formed named infantry divisions that are formed in '45 that were composed of militia and local units and are in the game. Their quality is low to reflect these militia type units.

An example is the Raegner Infantry Division (Unit 1156 in the 1941 Campaign) which is raised in Jan '45. It was composed of these subordinate units.

Grenadier-Regiment Baecker mit Stab, Stabs-Kp. und 2 Bataillonen (darin enthalten auch SS-Angehörige , die herausgelöst werden sollten)

Grenadier-Regiment v. Petersdorf mit Stab, Stabs-Kp. und 2 Bataillonen (darin enthalten viel Volkssturm, welcher durch aufzulösende Fahnenjunker-Regimenter ersetzt werden sollte)

Fahnenjunker-Grenadier-Regiment 1237 mit Stab, Stabs-Kp. und zwei Bataillonen und 13. und 14. Kp.

Füsilier-Kompanie in Aufstellung

Pionier-Kompanie geplant

gemischte Nachrichten-Kompanie 511

Divisions-Kampfschule in Aufstellung

Kraftfahr-Kompanie

Fahrschwadron

Verwaltungs-Kompanie


Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

It was pointed out awhile ago that the Soviets don't have all the SUs they had in reality because there were not enough free slots in the program.

I would hazard to say it's the same for the Axis.



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RE: Volksturm? - 6/1/2012 2:26:02 AM   
map66

 

Posts: 138
Joined: 1/31/2011
Status: offline 		Kershaw's latest book "The End" does a really good job of covering the Volksturm and contextualizing it (and yes, their Panzershrecken as well...) He cites the latest scholarship on it which really surprised me in how large scale it was in terms of raw numbers (nearly 2,000,000 IIRC). Does WiTE model the late '44 total war efforts of Goebels and Speer, which were remarkably successful in combing out man power for mobilization? I imagine, if this were in the game, it would be reflected by a noticeable surge of low quality replacements towards the end of '44.

< Message edited by map66 -- 6/1/2012 2:29:33 AM >

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RE: Volksturm? - 6/1/2012 2:53:03 AM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 1442
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

This is not the case. The 1944 Campaign has all of the Soviet SUs that existed in the order of battle and there are still plenty of slots.

For the Volksturm, there are at least a dozen hastily formed named infantry divisions that are formed in '45 that were composed of militia and local units and are in the game. Their quality is low to reflect these militia type units.

An example is the Raegner Infantry Division (Unit 1156 in the 1941 Campaign) which is raised in Jan '45. It was composed of these subordinate units.

Grenadier-Regiment Baecker mit Stab, Stabs-Kp. und 2 Bataillonen (darin enthalten auch SS-Angehörige , die herausgelöst werden sollten)

Grenadier-Regiment v. Petersdorf mit Stab, Stabs-Kp. und 2 Bataillonen (darin enthalten viel Volkssturm, welcher durch aufzulösende Fahnenjunker-Regimenter ersetzt werden sollte)

Fahnenjunker-Grenadier-Regiment 1237 mit Stab, Stabs-Kp. und zwei Bataillonen und 13. und 14. Kp.

Füsilier-Kompanie in Aufstellung

Pionier-Kompanie geplant

gemischte Nachrichten-Kompanie 511

Divisions-Kampfschule in Aufstellung

Kraftfahr-Kompanie

Fahrschwadron

Verwaltungs-Kompanie


Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

It was pointed out awhile ago that the Soviets don't have all the SUs they had in reality because there were not enough free slots in the program.

I would hazard to say it's the same for the Axis.




Ah, I misunderstood the following:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

You are fighting the windmills. There is no such advantage you are talking about. As Jim says I'm yet to see the late war save file with the historical amount of units built. In fact if you made such list it won't fit into the current amount of free slots. Not to mention arranging all the time schedule. Game still would be in development.


I thought SUs were included... Oops.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 6/1/2012 3:02:07 AM >

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RE: Volksturm? - 6/1/2012 4:23:31 AM   
Naughteous Maximus


Posts: 141
Joined: 3/9/2010
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline 		Here is an interesting website about the Volksturm:

http://hjandvolksturm.devhub.com/blog/59209-history-of-the-german-ww-ii-volkssturm/

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RE: Volksturm? - 6/1/2012 4:46:15 AM   
rogo727


Posts: 974
Joined: 7/12/2011
From: Iowa
Status: offline 		Thanks! Very interesting!

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