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"Aye,aye,sir.

 
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"Aye,aye,sir. - 5/24/2012 2:16:17 PM   
hbrsvl

 

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Status: offline 		Hi- A curiosity question. Did the IJN use the subject phrase as a response to orders?

I'm a Navy vet , have read extensively about WWII, especially in the Pacific and wonder how the IJN did this.

Anybody?

Thanks, Hugh Browne
Post #: 1
RE: "Aye,aye,sir. - 5/24/2012 6:42:48 PM   
AcePylut


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Status: offline 		When I watched the Yamato movie, all the recruits said was "hai" when given an order.

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RE: "Aye,aye,sir. - 5/24/2012 7:30:13 PM   
Nikademus


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Status: offline 		Aye Aye Sir would be considered Anglo slang so there'd be no equivilent in Japanese.

"Hai" is generally considered an acceptible way of saying yes, as long as it's done in proper context (like including the formalized bow to show respect)
Also in the way its inflected. It seems melodramatic to us but i'm sure "Aye Aye Sir" is just as paculiar sounding to Japanese.

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RE: "Aye,aye,sir. - 5/24/2012 7:47:00 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Aye Aye Sir would be considered Anglo slang so there'd be no equivilent in Japanese.



Not true, at least in the USN. "Aye, aye" has legal meaning not imparted by "Yes." I'm 90% certain this has been confirmed in courts martial and is/was a key point pounded into us at OCS in 1980.

An order or command (those are not interchangable words either; they have different legal meaning) is given to someone under command of the order-giver. (By rank, by duty station, by watch, etc.) A response of "Yes, sir" means, legally, "I acknowledge hearing you. I can't deny I heard you. The words were not garbled. I am not asleep or unconscious."

However, a response of "aye aye, sir" means, legally "I have heard the order/command, I understand it, and I WILL COMPLY." IOW, I accept the "contract." I won't later argue that it was an illegal order, or that I didn't know or understand the time limits imposed by it, and I understand my authority limits vis a vis my duty to execute it, and in all respects the order-giver can move on to the next order of business. If any of the preceeding are not true it is incumbent on the order-recipient to NOT respond "aye aye, sir" but to say something along the lines of "I don't understand" or "Sir, I consider that to be an illegal order."

Movies and TV get this wrong all the time. They think "Aye aye, sir" just sounds so salty or something when in fact the words have legal meaning which could come up later and bite the person who responded with them but then did not understand and/or execute.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 5/24/2012 7:48:22 PM >

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RE: "Aye,aye,sir. - 5/24/2012 7:57:39 PM   
Nikademus


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Status: offline 		Salty would be "Arrrrr Matey....the Word be Given!"


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RE: "Aye,aye,sir. - 5/24/2012 7:59:56 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Salty would be "Arrrrr Matey....the Word be Given!"




To my knowledge there is no courts martial precedent on that one. Maybe in the RN.

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RE: "Aye,aye,sir. - 5/24/2012 8:40:54 PM   
sprior


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Status: offline 		I never heard anyone say "aye, aye sir" in the RN. Not once, not never.

Mostly:

Are you sure sir? Okaaaay

Really sir? If you say so.

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RE: "Aye,aye,sir. - 5/24/2012 9:06:29 PM   
Nikademus


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RE: "Aye,aye,sir. - 5/24/2012 10:29:09 PM   
Gräfin Zeppelin


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Status: offline 		Thats easy, obviously they say " Hai Hai Sama !!

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RE: "Aye,aye,sir. - 5/24/2012 11:09:59 PM   
Disco Duck

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Aye Aye Sir would be considered Anglo slang so there'd be no equivilent in Japanese.

"Hai" is generally considered an acceptible way of saying yes, as long as it's done in proper context (like including the formalized bow to show respect)
Also in the way its inflected. It seems melodramatic to us but i'm sure "Aye Aye Sir" is just as paculiar sounding to Japanese.


I spent the last fourteen years working for a Japanese firm. They made it very clear that Hai does not mean yes. It means I understand you.

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RE: "Aye,aye,sir. - 5/24/2012 11:26:01 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hbrsvl
Hi- A curiosity question. Did the IJN use the subject phrase as a response to orders?

I'm a Navy vet , have read extensively about WWII, especially in the Pacific and wonder how the IJN did this.

Anybody? Thanks, Hugh Browne

As some people have said, the Japanese used "Hai' as a response. It wasn't a word as much as a cough, it could be 'Hai', it could be 'Hoh'; anything close. The Japanese order response was in body posture. Much like a Regimental Seargent Major, who marches in, stamps to attention and hoists a salute that quivers for seconds above his brow, your Japanese private soldier or naval rating will come to attention, lower his eyes, bend his waist a few degrees, and bend his head a few more. When he answers 'Hoh', his entire body tenses momentarily in that posture.

If one is a high officer, or a recognized peer, one may omit the lowering of the eyes, and the bowing of the head, but if so, one must always maintain eye contact with the superior. Body language must conform to obligations.

That's how the Japanese manual puts it. Whoots gazoots. Ciao. John

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RE: "Aye,aye,sir. - 5/24/2012 11:37:12 PM   
USS America


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Disco Duck


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Aye Aye Sir would be considered Anglo slang so there'd be no equivilent in Japanese.

"Hai" is generally considered an acceptible way of saying yes, as long as it's done in proper context (like including the formalized bow to show respect)
Also in the way its inflected. It seems melodramatic to us but i'm sure "Aye Aye Sir" is just as paculiar sounding to Japanese.


I spent the last fourteen years working for a Japanese firm. They made it very clear that Hai does not mean yes. It means I understand you.



Hmmm, then what is Japanese for "yes"?

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RE: "Aye,aye,sir. - 5/25/2012 12:02:42 AM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America
Hmmm, then what is Japanese for "yes"?

That would be 'hai'.

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RE: "Aye,aye,sir. - 5/25/2012 12:43:12 AM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 14840
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From: Twin Cities, MN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Disco Duck


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Aye Aye Sir would be considered Anglo slang so there'd be no equivilent in Japanese.

"Hai" is generally considered an acceptible way of saying yes, as long as it's done in proper context (like including the formalized bow to show respect)
Also in the way its inflected. It seems melodramatic to us but i'm sure "Aye Aye Sir" is just as paculiar sounding to Japanese.


I spent the last fourteen years working for a Japanese firm. They made it very clear that Hai does not mean yes. It means I understand you.


Is there a phrase that translates that means, "I understand you and will carry out your instructions [superior]"?

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RE: "Aye,aye,sir. - 5/25/2012 2:29:44 AM   
Disco Duck

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


quote:

ORIGINAL: Disco Duck


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Aye Aye Sir would be considered Anglo slang so there'd be no equivilent in Japanese.

"Hai" is generally considered an acceptible way of saying yes, as long as it's done in proper context (like including the formalized bow to show respect)
Also in the way its inflected. It seems melodramatic to us but i'm sure "Aye Aye Sir" is just as paculiar sounding to Japanese.


I spent the last fourteen years working for a Japanese firm. They made it very clear that Hai does not mean yes. It means I understand you.



Hmmm, then what is Japanese for "yes"?

LOL
I can't say I ever heard it. The closest I ever got was " I think so" (So dis ney). You never heard "no" either. What you got was a tilted head, an intake of breath through clenched teeth and the statement " Very difficult I think".

The only word I got used to hearing was Qu Kay. Break time.

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RE: "Aye,aye,sir. - 5/25/2012 2:47:42 AM   
Disco Duck

 

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Status: offline 		Just a funny story about working with a bunch of Japanese.
We were always getting Japanese engineers coming over for work or training. We were constantly getting e-mails saying "Please welcome Kawasaki-san from the Osaka factory. He is an excellent engineer." yada yada yada. Well one day the sender got in a hurry, mistyped excellent and was betrayed by the spell checker. It came out excrement engineer. A few minutes after the first email we got this hugely apologetic e-mail correcting what was said. The Americans though the whole thing was funny. The Japanese did not.

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RE: "Aye,aye,sir. - 5/25/2012 3:00:51 AM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Disco Duck


quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


quote:

ORIGINAL: Disco Duck


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Aye Aye Sir would be considered Anglo slang so there'd be no equivilent in Japanese.

"Hai" is generally considered an acceptible way of saying yes, as long as it's done in proper context (like including the formalized bow to show respect)
Also in the way its inflected. It seems melodramatic to us but i'm sure "Aye Aye Sir" is just as paculiar sounding to Japanese.


I spent the last fourteen years working for a Japanese firm. They made it very clear that Hai does not mean yes. It means I understand you.



Hmmm, then what is Japanese for "yes"?

LOL
I can't say I ever heard it. The closest I ever got was " I think so" (So dis ney). You never heard "no" either. What you got was a tilted head, an intake of breath through clenched teeth and the statement " Very difficult I think".

The only word I got used to hearing was Qu Kay. Break time.


I was always taught that when the Japanese suck their breath in through their teeth and say "it is very difficult" you could always translate that to "No way in hell you dog-breathed Gajin(barbarian) bastard!".

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RE: "Aye,aye,sir. - 5/25/2012 3:10:18 AM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Disco Duck


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Aye Aye Sir would be considered Anglo slang so there'd be no equivilent in Japanese.

"Hai" is generally considered an acceptible way of saying yes, as long as it's done in proper context (like including the formalized bow to show respect)
Also in the way its inflected. It seems melodramatic to us but i'm sure "Aye Aye Sir" is just as paculiar sounding to Japanese.


I spent the last fourteen years working for a Japanese firm. They made it very clear that Hai does not mean yes. It means I understand you.


Is there a phrase that translates that means, "I understand you and will carry out your instructions [superior]"?


"So it shall be said .. so it shall be done .."

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Post #: 18
RE: "Aye,aye,sir. - 5/25/2012 3:39:19 AM   
hbrsvl

 

Posts: 1103
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Status: offline 		To all responders- Wow!! What a response. Thanks to all. It is responses like this that are the very soul of our forum.

Again, thanks to all and thanks for giving me insights I didn't have. HB

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Post #: 19
RE: "Aye,aye,sir. - 5/25/2012 6:50:32 AM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 986
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: online 		from my reading of Western language, the Italian "sisignore" & the German "jawohl" are equivalent to the American "Aye Aye, Sir!" - meaning, "I understand & will obey!"

so it's interesting that the Japanese language doesn't seem to include a similar phrase. as a Western guy, i thought of Japanese society as it evolved into the 40's as being excessively compliant & obedient. but as i've read more about WWII history, there are lots of examples where low-rank Japanese officers altered national policy, ignored orders from higher command, & steered action to suit themselves.

perhaps it was partly due to the fact that their language didn't have an exact equivalent to 'Yes, Sir!'

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RE: "Aye,aye,sir. - 5/25/2012 8:17:13 AM   
Blackhorse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter


perhaps it was partly due to the fact that their language didn't have an exact equivalent to 'Yes, Sir!'



. . . or even to the Dread Pirate Roberts' "As you wish."

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RE: "Aye,aye,sir. - 5/25/2012 3:53:06 PM   
dr.hal


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Status: offline 		To the Japanese, body language is as important as what is actually "said". Respect is demonstrated via the body, not words.

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RE: "Aye,aye,sir. - 5/25/2012 4:33:53 PM   
Crackaces


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Status: offline 		Hmmm that whole body expresson thing must be very difficult in communicating with air traffic control ..

Just to add some parlance to this thread in communicating with an air traffic controller ..

Besides the simple repeating of the command which says "I will comply " For example "N12345 turn right hdg 135 maintain 5000" "135 - 5000 N12345"

Roger "I hear and understand your instruction/information"

Wilco "Will comply"

"Did you know that airport XYZ is shut down" "Roger, requesting a practice ILS for XYZ .."

"N12345, report to the tower after securing the aircraft .." "wilco, N12345"

so the whole Roger Wilco thing is just for the movies .

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RE: "Aye,aye,sir. - 5/25/2012 4:52:43 PM   
dr.hal


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Status: offline 		It is my understanding that in the airtraffic control world, the international language of flight is English, so the body language thing doesn't come into often (unless the pilot is doing a flyby and using a finger to give a salute)....

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RE: "Aye,aye,sir. - 5/25/2012 5:47:46 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

It is my understanding that in the airtraffic control world, the international language of flight is English, so the body language thing doesn't come into often (unless the pilot is doing a flyby and using a finger to give a salute)....


There is the rather famious story in aviation of an air traffic controller stating; "Maintain 6 thousand follow the JAP 123 at your 12 o'clock" .. The JAP was a JAL 707 .. out of the blue on the airwaves comes a "Banzai!!" ...

[I am having a hard time finding the source for this .I remember intially reading this in Readers Digest but that source referenced something back in the late '60's .. if somebody who is an ol' aviator can help me ..]

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RE: "Aye,aye,sir. - 5/25/2012 5:50:06 PM   
Justus2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

Hmmm that whole body expresson thing must be very difficult in communicating with air traffic control ..

Just to add some parlance to this thread in communicating with an air traffic controller ..

Besides the simple repeating of the command which says "I will comply " For example "N12345 turn right hdg 135 maintain 5000" "135 - 5000 N12345"

Roger "I hear and understand your instruction/information"

Wilco "Will comply"

"Did you know that airport XYZ is shut down" "Roger, requesting a practice ILS for XYZ .."

"N12345, report to the tower after securing the aircraft .." "wilco, N12345"

so the whole Roger Wilco thing is just for the movies .


This reminds me of a section in a book (I think it was Outliers, by Malcom Gladwell), where he pointed out that asian airlines had some of the highest accident/incident/near miss rates of major carriers, I think Korean Air was one of the highest. His analysis pointed to thet amount of deference shown by copilots to the pilot, and even in interactions with air traffic control, because it would be considered disrespectful to correct the Pilot, so small errors or oversights, that would usually be caught or corrected by the navigator or co-pilot, were frequently not addressed. It's been a while since I read it, but IIRC they actually did some comparisons with survey data to identify the most 'deferential' cultures, and how those results correlated with who was actually on the crew in certain incidents.

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RE: "Aye,aye,sir. - 5/25/2012 5:53:30 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

Hmmm that whole body expresson thing must be very difficult in communicating with air traffic control ..

Just to add some parlance to this thread in communicating with an air traffic controller ..

Besides the simple repeating of the command which says "I will comply " For example "N12345 turn right hdg 135 maintain 5000" "135 - 5000 N12345"

Roger "I hear and understand your instruction/information"

Wilco "Will comply"

"Did you know that airport XYZ is shut down" "Roger, requesting a practice ILS for XYZ .."

"N12345, report to the tower after securing the aircraft .." "wilco, N12345"

so the whole Roger Wilco thing is just for the movies .


"Roger, Roger. Get me a Vector, Victor."

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RE: "Aye,aye,sir. - 5/25/2012 6:10:41 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25218
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From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

Hmmm that whole body expresson thing must be very difficult in communicating with air traffic control ..

Just to add some parlance to this thread in communicating with an air traffic controller ..

Besides the simple repeating of the command which says "I will comply " For example "N12345 turn right hdg 135 maintain 5000" "135 - 5000 N12345"

Roger "I hear and understand your instruction/information"

Wilco "Will comply"

"Did you know that airport XYZ is shut down" "Roger, requesting a practice ILS for XYZ .."

"N12345, report to the tower after securing the aircraft .." "wilco, N12345"

so the whole Roger Wilco thing is just for the movies .



I remember reading an article complete with pictures to demonstrate body language and facial expressions meant to 'coach' American executives when having corporate negoiations with Japanese executives. Can you say "culture shock" Japanese body language as well as posture along with verbage and context of said verbage tended to be so misinterpreted by US execs that it would gum up the works so to speak....hence the primer. I remember one example clearly......a US exec makes a preposal/counter-preposal. The Japanese exec responds by remaining silent, posture stiff....eyes looking down at the table. The exasperated US exec eventually blurts out "WELL??!!!!!" But in Japanese society, the Japanese exec had already given his answer so to speak. He disaproved.....politely but firmly and was waiting for the US exec to prepose a more modified version or alternate compromise.

Interesting stuff. Unfortunately this puts a hole in the Rosetta Stone press about how easy it is to learn a language. So much more than just speaking the words. lol. Alot of fun is made of Indian accents in the West speaking English.......wonder how we sound speaking Hindi in India?

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RE: "Aye,aye,sir. - 5/25/2012 6:47:31 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 6171
Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Interesting stuff. Unfortunately this puts a hole in the Rosetta Stone press about how easy it is to learn a language. So much more than just speaking the words. lol. Alot of fun is made of Indian accents in the West speaking English.......wonder how we sound speaking Hindi in India?


Many stories about blown deals in Japan when the US team flipped their business cards across the conference table instead of presenting them properly by facing the recipient, standing, feet together, bowing at the waist, and holding the card by the edges with both hands.

My dad used to do a lot of business in Brasil. He told me about a cocktail reception he went to where the American, with our biggest-personal-space-on-the-planet wiring (cue Seinfeld's "close talker") was talking to a Brasilian, a culture with a very small personal space standard. The American kept backing up and the Brasilain kept moving forward, each subconsciously feeling something wasn't "right" until finaly the American was pinned to the far wall of the room using his drink hand to create space and fend the other guy off.

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RE: "Aye,aye,sir. - 5/25/2012 6:57:59 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 2314
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Justus2


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

Hmmm that whole body expresson thing must be very difficult in communicating with air traffic control ..

Just to add some parlance to this thread in communicating with an air traffic controller ..

Besides the simple repeating of the command which says "I will comply " For example "N12345 turn right hdg 135 maintain 5000" "135 - 5000 N12345"

Roger "I hear and understand your instruction/information"

Wilco "Will comply"

"Did you know that airport XYZ is shut down" "Roger, requesting a practice ILS for XYZ .."

"N12345, report to the tower after securing the aircraft .." "wilco, N12345"

so the whole Roger Wilco thing is just for the movies .


This reminds me of a section in a book (I think it was Outliers, by Malcom Gladwell), where he pointed out that asian airlines had some of the highest accident/incident/near miss rates of major carriers, I think Korean Air was one of the highest. His analysis pointed to thet amount of deference shown by copilots to the pilot, and even in interactions with air traffic control, because it would be considered disrespectful to correct the Pilot, so small errors or oversights, that would usually be caught or corrected by the navigator or co-pilot, were frequently not addressed. It's been a while since I read it, but IIRC they actually did some comparisons with survey data to identify the most 'deferential' cultures, and how those results correlated with who was actually on the crew in certain incidents.


The United States had the same problem. A lot of reosurces are spent on "Cockpit Resource Management" We have two very famious accidents. One is the flight engineer and co-pilot let the Captain drive a L1011 into the swamps .. the other is even more interesting .. a "junior" ex F15 pilot with 10,000 hours is sitting in the right seat and a "senior" newbie from the Commuters is sitting in the left seat ..

Florida flight 90 .. "Larry Larry we're stalling" "I know! I know!"

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