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Partisans - 5/23/2012 3:40:17 AM   
Farfarer

 

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After game after game, I have now decided that the modelling of these critters is game breaker. Six weeks of Army Group paralysis when there has never been a lapse in garrison obligations is ridiculous. The penalty of a partisan attack should be that RR repair squads are 'sucked' into repair (immediately and to full effect) behind the lines, rather than whatever expansion of the RR grid they were embarked upon. Furthermore, the Axis 'reward' for shattering a unit is a greater chance of partisans?
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RE: Partisans - 5/23/2012 4:40:51 AM   
Michael T


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They are the scourge of the game. They should not stop 100% of supply. Each partisan hit on a line should result in something a lot less than 100% loss of supply. And RR dudes should be able to move along any converted track with RR movement even if the track has been cut off.

I have suggested this before too, but all to no avail: That is why don't cities that are garrisoned above 100% have some kind of extra security measure within a radius of the city? Eg if a city is garrisoned by 150% then there is a 50% (or some % chance) less chance of a Partisan attack within say 5 hexes of said city.

I hate the partisan part of game when playing Axis because you can't do anything about it at all. Surely as C&C East I should be able to throw more resources at Partisans and thus reduce some of the effects.


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RE: Partisans - 5/23/2012 5:10:44 AM   
76mm


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Well they are frustrating for Sov players as well, hitting useless trunk lines, not providing any recon intel, and generally just sucking up supplies for no purpose 99% of the time unless somehow they hit both of the Germans' supply lines at the same time.

I've seen the movies, don't these guys have radios? Or brains enough to figure out which targets are important? Or that I'd really like to know where the panzers are?

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RE: Partisans - 5/23/2012 5:22:09 AM   
Michael T


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No, they have no brains

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RE: Partisans - 5/23/2012 5:32:41 AM   
wurger54


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quote:

Six weeks of Army Group paralysis when there has never been a lapse in garrison obligations is ridiculous.


Have not experienced this. If I had I would feel differently. Right now I've got the partisans under control.

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RE: Partisans - 5/23/2012 1:43:20 PM   
Ron

 

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In the early part of the game they can indeed be a game breaker - maintaining garrisons doesn't change that. Once the trunk lines are established then they are a mere nuisance. It doesn't help that the RR units can't use rail movement if the line behind them has been cut or that Night Fighter intercepting is broken allowing Partisan supply runs with impunity.

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RE: Partisans - 5/23/2012 2:32:25 PM   
Balou


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@ Michael T
quote:

And RR dudes should be able to move along any converted track with RR movement even if the track has been cut off.

Have the devs ever provided a reasonable explanation for the converted hexes beyond damaged tracks not beeing usable ?

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RE: Partisans - 5/23/2012 4:08:44 PM   
timmyab

 

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The partisan side of this game doesn't work very well.I think it's a by-product of the rail network being too abstracted.
Ideally they would cause supply to be reduced, not cut altogether.
Garrisoning cities to 100% doesn't make a noticeable difference in my experience.
I think partisan activity should be proportionally related on their distance to the nearest enemy unit, whether in cities or not.Axis security units would have a bonus in this regard.
I like the idea of partisans being able to do recon on Axis units behind the lines.

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RE: Partisans - 5/23/2012 4:31:10 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou
Have the devs ever provided a reasonable explanation for the converted hexes beyond damaged tracks not beeing usable ?

It is just a basic design issue; the Russians have the same problem if a German spearhead cuts off an isolated section of track, nothing beyond the break can be used. This happens frequently, for instance, in and around the Crimea, where it is a huge pain.

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RE: Partisans - 5/23/2012 4:57:43 PM   
Flaviusx


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The partisan war should be abstracted more, imo. Just remove all the security forces on the Axis side, and all the on map partisan cadres. Partisan activity would be represented as strikes against Axis rail cap, with effects varying over time. Provide a holding box for regular Axis forces to suppress partisan activity further, which the Axis player could contribute regular forces to or withdraw from as he pleases. Get the micromanagement out of it and clean up the map some.

As much as many Axis players plainly hate dealing with it, so do I as a Soviet player. I have little or no control over it, it just happens, I have to spend a lot of time and forces on air drops which have completely random effects. It's frustrating for everybody and deeply unfun. The game's focus should be operational, and this isn't an operational thing at all and therefore ought to be kept in the background and abstracted as much as possible because it integrates very poorly with the main systems of the game.


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RE: Partisans - 5/23/2012 5:32:17 PM   
Balou


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@76mm
My point is: it simply doesn't make sense that rails beyond the damaged section are unusable. They could be used e.g. to bring back partisan hunters, in which case rail transport increases their range. The fact that the Sovs face the same problem doesn't make this rather simplistic RR philosophy anything better.

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RE: Partisans - 5/23/2012 5:37:41 PM   
Tarhunnas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

The partisan war should be abstracted more, imo. Just remove all the security forces on the Axis side, and all the on map partisan cadres. Partisan activity would be represented as strikes against Axis rail cap, with effects varying over time. Provide a holding box for regular Axis forces to suppress partisan activity further, which the Axis player could contribute regular forces to or withdraw from as he pleases. Get the micromanagement out of it and clean up the map some.

As much as many Axis players plainly hate dealing with it, so do I as a Soviet player. I have little or no control over it, it just happens, I have to spend a lot of time and forces on air drops which have completely random effects. It's frustrating for everybody and deeply unfun. The game's focus should be operational, and this isn't an operational thing at all and therefore ought to be kept in the background and abstracted as much as possible because it integrates very poorly with the main systems of the game.



Yep, I agree. It is a complete time waster, and should be more abstracted. Possibly there could be some way for the Axis to assign more units to antipartisan activity, thus lessening effects, and some way for the Soviets to incite more partisan effects in a certain area for a limited time, simulating orders to coordinate partisan activity with offensives.

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RE: Partisans - 5/23/2012 7:18:41 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou
My point is: it simply doesn't make sense that rails beyond the damaged section are unusable. They could be used e.g. to bring back partisan hunters, in which case rail transport increases their range. The fact that the Sovs face the same problem doesn't make this rather simplistic RR philosophy anything better.


My point is that both sides would benefit from fixing this rather strange mechanic.

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RE: Partisans - 5/23/2012 10:16:02 PM   
Michael T


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Yes Flav, I agree and have suggested same many moons ago. Get rid of it and abstract it.

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RE: Partisans - 5/24/2012 6:06:46 PM   
TFXO

 

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First time posting and relatively new to the game. First real PBEM to turn 45 ongoing and am playing Axis. Flavius I can't agree with you more. I had two separate occasions where a partisan unit of 200 men virtually cutoff all supplies to 500K men on a front. That is just not realistic. In 1941 if the Russian gets lucky with them they can make a big difference. From 1942 on they aren't that big of a factor. Being a student of history I know that Partisans didn't have that kind of effect as many of you have affirmed above.

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RE: Partisans - 5/25/2012 3:23:27 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TFXO
I had two separate occasions where a partisan unit of 200 men virtually cutoff all supplies to 500K men on a front. That is just not realistic. In 1941 if the Russian gets lucky with them they can make a big difference.


Well, within the game's simplistic logistics model, what is unrealistic about it? The Germans have deliberately based all of their supplies on a single rail line which runs through several hundred miles of sparsely-populated terrain threatened by many small groups of hostile, armed men. I would think that 200 men could do a real job on a rail line overnight.

Frankly since the Germans tend to focus all of their rail conversion on one or two lines, I think it would be more realistic for the partisans to cut these lines more often, not less, because their strategic value is so obvious, and they are so vulnerable.

If the Germans don't want to accept this vulnerability, they should focus on creating a more robust rail network--problem solved.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 5/25/2012 3:24:26 AM >

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RE: Partisans - 5/25/2012 3:36:54 AM   
Farfarer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: TFXO
I had two separate occasions where a partisan unit of 200 men virtually cutoff all supplies to 500K men on a front. That is just not realistic. In 1941 if the Russian gets lucky with them they can make a big difference.


Well, within the game's simplistic logistics model, what is unrealistic about it? The Germans have deliberately based all of their supplies on a single rail line which runs through several hundred miles of sparsely-populated terrain threatened by many small groups of hostile, armed men. I would think that 200 men could do a real job on a rail line overnight.

Frankly since the Germans tend to focus all of their rail conversion on one or two lines, I think it would be more realistic for the partisans to cut these lines more often, not less, because their strategic value is so obvious, and they are so vulnerable.

If the Germans don't want to accept this vulnerability, they should focus on creating a more robust rail network--problem solved.



and then it's not a game. Enjoy the AI.

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RE: Partisans - 5/25/2012 3:48:32 AM   
hfarrish


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OTOH, it seems like partisans, while annoying to everyone (I really enjoy running around making sure enough level bombers are set to night missions) are not really a big deal issue either. Given that switching partisans to an abstraction is likely a major fix, I'd rather see the devs spend their time on other things (logistics!!).

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RE: Partisans - 5/25/2012 4:03:54 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Farfarer
and then it's not a game. Enjoy the AI.


Ooops, I keep forgetting, it is not fun for German players unless they can abuse the logistics model so that they can take Kharkov on Turn 4 or whatever. Nothing, including those pesky partisans, should be allowed to interfere with their progress. My mistake...

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RE: Partisans - 5/25/2012 4:19:04 AM   
hfarrish


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+1

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RE: Partisans - 5/25/2012 5:15:32 AM   
csarebel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Farfarer
and then it's not a game. Enjoy the AI.


Ooops, I keep forgetting, it is not fun for German players unless they can abuse the logistics model so that they can take Kharkov on Turn 4 or whatever. Nothing, including those pesky partisans, should be allowed to interfere with their progress. My mistake...


No, we are not saying that we should be able to take Kharkov on turn 4. Quit using a "straw man". The partisans aspect just isn't a fun part of the game.

Partisan activity could be better modeled and in a more enjoyable way. No one is saying to not include them.

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RE: Partisans - 5/25/2012 5:24:11 AM   
Flaviusx


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76mm, partisans are the wrong way to deal with the game's logistics issues. They need to be considered in their own right, don't conflate the two issues. This is a classic case of two wrongs don't make a right.


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RE: Partisans - 5/25/2012 6:09:14 AM   
Tarhunnas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TFXO

First time posting and relatively new to the game. First real PBEM to turn 45 ongoing and am playing Axis. Flavius I can't agree with you more. I had two separate occasions where a partisan unit of 200 men virtually cutoff all supplies to 500K men on a front. That is just not realistic. In 1941 if the Russian gets lucky with them they can make a big difference. From 1942 on they aren't that big of a factor. Being a student of history I know that Partisans didn't have that kind of effect as many of you have affirmed above.


I agree about the realism aspect. In the game, if you want to make sure, you can put combat units or forts every 3 hexes on the really important stretches of railway. That's what I do.

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RE: Partisans - 5/25/2012 6:47:47 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: csarebel
Quit using a "straw man". The partisans aspect just isn't a fun part of the game.

Partisan activity could be better modeled and in a more enjoyable way. No one is saying to not include them.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
76mm, partisans are the wrong way to deal with the game's logistics issues. They need to be considered in their own right, don't conflate the two issues. This is a classic case of two wrongs don't make a right.


Well, I was only responding to a poster's complaint that the partisans in this game impose some kind of "unrealistic" burden on German logistics, which I find a bit ridiculous. I am not suggesting that partisans should be used to fix the game's logistic system, or that the partisan part of the game works well, is realistic, or is any fun.

I would be fine if the whole system were more abstracted; while I don't know if that would be more enjoyable, it would be less irritating, which I guess is a plus. But however the system works, if the Germans are foolish enough to base their entire supply sistem on a single rail line (which hopefully will be impossible in future), that rail line should be vulnerable to partisan attack.

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RE: Partisans - 5/25/2012 4:46:50 PM   
TFXO

 

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Tarhunnas - thanks for the advice - I hadn't thought of that.

76mm - I never suggested abusing the logistics model. My comments on realism are based on the idea of WITE creating a game based on realistic capabilities to recreate the Axis/Soviet conflict. I personally will not mule HQs as the Axis. I don't think that is realistic either.

My comments about partisans focus on that they should not be able to completely cutoff supplies to major portion of the front. Flavius came up with the best way I have seen to model their realistic capabilities in the game. The major effect they had overall was to reduce the locomotives that the Germans could use to transport supplies. In 1941, they were not very well organized and their attacks were uncoordinated and few in number.
Here is an excerpt from Christian Gerlach, Kalkulierte Morde (one of many sources) that will give you a flavor of how effective partisans were (notice two things ... they did not completely cutoff supplies and the Germans were able at times to very quickly restore the rail lines):

The Belarusian partisans are mainly known for blowing up railway installations and trains. But also in this field their successes where in certain respects limited. They managed to distinctly reduce the capacity of many lines, but not to cut off or decisively reduce German supplies for the front. [Footnote: See Pottgießer, pages 90f. und 100f. (in the week between 20 and 26.7.1943 partisans reduced the time during which the main lines could be used by 16 to 46%). Similarly for instance General des Transportwesens Mitte, Transportlage Nr. 9 v. 11.1.1944, BA-MA WF-03/5388, Bl. 643. The information in Kalinin, page 341, about a reduction of railway traffic by two thirds from 1942 to 1943 is incorrect. Bonwetsch's assessment (page 112) is correct in this respect.] This also applies regarding bridge blastings and the heydays of the »rail war« in August 1943 and June 1944 with up to 10,500 explosion spots in one day. [Footnote: See Pottgießer, pages 85 and 88; AWiFü beim AOK 4, Lagebericht 16.6.-15.7. v. 28.7.1944, BA-MA (BArchP)F 18039, Bl. 303. The number of attacks in the area of General Traffic Direction East exceeded 100 for the first time in May 1942, 500 for the first time in August, 750 in September 1942, 400 in January 1943 and 1,050 in May. Most of these occurred in the area of RVD Minsk. See for instance Kühnrich, pages 287 ff.; Wilenchik, page 285. Blasts in a row were counted by the Germans as only one, thus the difference in numbers.] Only few secondary lines the Germans had to temporarily give up completely. The high number of railway blasts is undisputed, but the Germans gradually got used to a kind of partisan war normality and especially managed to remove most damages on rails within the shortest time. [Footnote: Characteristic is the verdict of Linkow (page 448), who considered the German line security and mine clearing to have been very bad: »In one area, however, the Fascists achieved something extraordinary. They managed to thoroughly remove the consequences of a train disaster within the shortest time. Eight to ten hours, in difficult cases fifteen hours, were sufficient for them to make a line operational again.« See Pottgießer, pages 84-101. In the area of RVD Minsk there were 510 blasts in December 1943 and 598 blasts in January 1944, but of these only 43 respectively 48 led to line closures of more than 12 hours. Mineis (L) beim Transportchef, Auswirkung der Bandenanschläge v. 11.2.1944, BA-MA H 12/244). One must however point out the materially most important effect of the Belarusian partisans struggle, which was felt throughout Europe: according to German sources they destroyed as many locomotives each month as the whole of German-dominated Europe could produce in the same period - and the Soviets knew this. Given the lack of rolling stock which had occurred anyway throughout the German area of influence by shifting locomotives and wagons to the occupied Soviet territories, this had an effect on the outcome of the war in general that should not be underestimated.

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RE: Partisans - 5/25/2012 5:28:05 PM   
Joel Billings


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A benefit of the logistics and air system changes made in WitW has meant that we've already implemented a system for western front partisans where their impact is to in effect add usage to rail lines (just as air interdiction attacks do), reducing the amount of supplies and troops that can be carried by the rail line. We can do this because we track the use of the rail lines. No doubt this will be the way WitE 2.0 deals with partisans. I realize it doesn't help you in WitE, but I wanted you to know that we have listed to all the comments on WitE and are trying to react to them with improvements in WitW which we hope will eventually show up in a WitE 2.0.

< Message edited by Joel Billings -- 5/25/2012 8:24:46 PM >


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RE: Partisans - 5/25/2012 6:42:43 PM   
TFXO

 

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Thanks Joel. Hats off to your team for undertaking such an ambitious project.

It is easy to criticize and hard to create so hopefully we can all be constructive about it

Eric

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RE: Partisans - 5/25/2012 9:31:45 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TFXO
76mm - I never suggested abusing the logistics model. My comments on realism are based on the idea of WITE creating a game based on realistic capabilities to recreate the Axis/Soviet conflict. I personally will not mule HQs as the Axis. I don't think that is realistic either.


TFXO, sorry, I did not mean to imply that you personally abuse the logistics system, but the fact is that most German players focus their rail conversion on one or two lines, with no lateral spurs, so if one line is put out of commission by partisans, they are out of luck.

I note that your source (interesting, BTW) states that "They managed to distinctly reduce the capacity of many lines, but not to cut off or decisively reduce German supplies for the front." I guess we can draw our own conclusions about what they would have done if there was in fact only one line.


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RE: Partisans - 5/25/2012 10:26:00 PM   
Ron

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm


I note that your source (interesting, BTW) states that "They managed to distinctly reduce the capacity of many lines, but not to cut off or decisively reduce German supplies for the front." I guess we can draw our own conclusions about what they would have done if there was in fact only one line.




Uh, equating the WitE mechanism for repairing rail lines with the real capabilities of the German Army and making conclusions from that is questionable.

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RE: Partisans - 5/26/2012 3:53:31 AM   
Michael T


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quote:

A benefit of the logistics and air system changes made in WitW has meant that we've already implemented a system for western front partisans where their impact is to in effect add usage to rail lines (just as air interdiction attacks do), reducing the amount of supplies and troops that can be carried by the rail line. We can do this because we track the use of the rail lines. No doubt this will be the way WitE 2.0 deals with partisans. I realize it doesn't help you in WitE, but I wanted you to know that we have listed to all the comments on WitE and are trying to react to them with improvements in WitW which we hope will eventually show up in a WitE 2.0.



Excellent news. Joel, note the number of alt games being taken up lately

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