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Just watched a staggering documentary - 5/21/2012 10:10:33 PM   
Roger Neilson 3


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Amazing and quite shocking. Well worth a view if you can get it via Iplayer.

Roger






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RE: Just watched a staggering documentary - 5/22/2012 12:54:18 AM   
JohnDillworth


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Grabbing it now. VyrVPN has a British proxy server. and no judging, I did pay my TV licence for many years
thanks

< Message edited by JohnDillworth -- 5/22/2012 1:00:01 AM >


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RE: Just watched a staggering documentary - 5/22/2012 5:53:56 AM   
Commander Cody


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Sounds a bit suspicious. Any hints on how the Brits managed to do this?

Cheers,
CC

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RE: Just watched a staggering documentary - 5/22/2012 6:33:29 AM   
Roger Neilson 3


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One of our aristocrats, hired by the Japanese after WW1.... in their pay trained their carrier arm, then was in the admiralty and party to all our secrets - passing them on to the Japanese, even after war was declared.... never prosecuted as he was 'too important'.

Well worth a watch.

Roger

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RE: Just watched a staggering documentary - 5/22/2012 7:57:27 AM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3

One of our aristocrats, hired by the Japanese after WW1.... in their pay trained their carrier arm, then was in the admiralty and party to all our secrets - passing them on to the Japanese, even after war was declared.... never prosecuted as he was 'too important'.

Well worth a watch.

Roger


Name of that person?


Leo "Apollo11"

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RE: Just watched a staggering documentary - 5/22/2012 8:32:08 AM   
jmalter

 

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yawn. needs moar bald wrinkles.

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RE: Just watched a staggering documentary - 5/22/2012 9:33:16 AM   
Roger Neilson 3


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You are a thriller writer, working on a tense scene in which an ex-Etonian toff, hugely knowledgeable about naval airpower and suspected of sharing his knowledge with a foreign power, is being questioned by intelligence officials. Present at the meeting is the Director of Public Prosecutions, presumably on hand to put the fear of God into the suspect. So, what do you name this important figure?

You need something redolent of 1920s Britain, of tweed suits and forensic penetration. What about Sir Archibald Bodkin? That'll do nicely, surely? But no, your publisher jibs on the ground that it's too ridiculously perfect to be true. Except, of course, that Sir Archibald Bodkin was exactly what he was called and the meeting really did take place. A very dodgy cove called William Forbes-Sempill was being put on the spot because of his obliging habit of leaking information to the Japanese, the only problem for his interrogators being that they couldn't let on that they knew everything already because that would reveal that they'd been tapping into diplomatic communications.

The Fall of Singapore: the Great Betrayal told the story of Forbes-Sempill and one other fellow traveller, a pioneering carrier pilot called Frederick Joseph Rutland, who went off to help the Japanese perfect the techniques they later applied against the American fleet at Pearl Harbor. In doing so, the film drew heavily on recently declassified documents and also rather over-egged the consequences of their treachery, the obtuseness of the British government being more than a match for Japanese skulduggery when it came to undermining defences in the Far East. In any case, Forbes-Sempill, in particular, seemed to occupy that murky no man's land that still exists between the promotion of the British arms industry and pre-emptive assistance to the enemy.

He also exemplified another national trait that hasn't entirely disappeared, which is the tendency of the British upper crust to look after their own when a chap is unfortunate enough to back the wrong horse. Forbes-Sempill assisted the Japanese with their anti-espionage activities. He was also an anti-Semite, with ideological reasons for sympathising with the Axis powers, but when he was caught making calls to the Japanese after the outbreak of hostilities, Churchill intervened to soften the terms of his punishment. While Rutland, who'd worked his way up through the ranks, was interned, Forbes-Sempill was offered the choice of resigning his Naval commission or taking up a position in northern Scotland, where he could do no harm. Floreat Etona, I guess.

From The Independent Newspaper - today.

Roger

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RE: Just watched a staggering documentary - 5/22/2012 10:57:08 AM   
ilovestrategy


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I don't see how the British could give the Nips the "know how on how to take out Pearl Harbor". Pearl Harbor came from a whole slew of unlikely occurrences like Hunt's heavy handedness in diplomacy, the oil and steel embargo, and Yamamato's rise to power in the IJN with his belief in carrier warfare. And that is not counting the Americans thinking the Japs would strike the Philippines first.

The Japanese did Pearl Harbor all on their own with researching little used trade routes and they had their own spy in Pearl Harbor giving information on the fleet layout. And a well trained KB helped too. Yes, the British had a hand in training carrier tactics. According to Toland, the British way of warfare was so ingrained, the Japanese ate their mid day meal every day with silverware on their carriers.

But to say that the British "gave" the Japs the know how on taking out Pearl is stretching the truth. The Japanese Empire did not need to be led on a leash. They took care of Pearl Harbor all on their own.

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RE: Just watched a staggering documentary - 5/22/2012 12:41:07 PM   
barkorn45

 

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The british in a way did give them the know how when they attacked the italian navy at taranto.It showed them air-dropped torpedoes could be used in a shallow port.

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RE: Just watched a staggering documentary - 5/22/2012 4:55:27 PM   
oldman45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barkorn45

The british in a way did give them the know how when they attacked the italian navy at taranto.It showed them air-dropped torpedoes could be used in a shallow port.



I am guessing that's what he passed on to the Japanese. Nobody thought you could drop a torpedo in a harbor until the Brits nailed the Italians in port.

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RE: Just watched a staggering documentary - 5/22/2012 6:58:04 PM   
geofflambert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3

You are a thriller writer, working on a tense scene in which an ex-Etonian toff, hugely knowledgeable about naval airpower and suspected of sharing his knowledge with a foreign power, is being questioned by intelligence officials. Present at the meeting is the Director of Public Prosecutions, presumably on hand to put the fear of God into the suspect. So, what do you name this important figure?

You need something redolent of 1920s Britain, of tweed suits and forensic penetration. What about Sir Archibald Bodkin? That'll do nicely, surely? But no, your publisher jibs on the ground that it's too ridiculously perfect to be true. Except, of course, that Sir Archibald Bodkin was exactly what he was called and the meeting really did take place. A very dodgy cove called William Forbes-Sempill was being put on the spot because of his obliging habit of leaking information to the Japanese, the only problem for his interrogators being that they couldn't let on that they knew everything already because that would reveal that they'd been tapping into diplomatic communications.



Can we get Benedict Cumberbatch to play Bodkin in the movie?


< Message edited by geofflambert -- 5/22/2012 7:06:06 PM >

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RE: Just watched a staggering documentary - 5/22/2012 9:52:02 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3

Amazing and quite shocking. Well worth a view if you can get it via Iplayer.

Roger





Warspite1

I'll have to take a look - its from the BBC so I'll keep an open mind....

So how many traitors did we have that led to the Singapore debacle? Sounds like they were falling over themselves, what with Patrick Keenan too

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RE: Just watched a staggering documentary - 5/23/2012 8:25:33 AM   
ilovestrategy


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I googled Patrick Keenan but there are too many people with that name. What is so special about this man?

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RE: Just watched a staggering documentary - 5/23/2012 7:24:04 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

I googled Patrick Keenan but there are too many people with that name. What is so special about this man?
Warspite1

Special? Nothing - he was a 24 carat bastard - in every sense of the word.

However, it would help if I had hit the H and not the K . Years since I read the book, but his story was told in Odd Man Out by Elphick and Smith.

Patrick Stanley Vaughan Heenan was an intelligence officer in the British Indian Army iirc (I think he was a liasion officer attached to the RAF) who fed information to the Japanese prior to, and during, the initial attack on Malaya. He was caught in the act and executed.

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RE: Just watched a staggering documentary - 5/23/2012 7:57:58 PM   
Q-Ball


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Special? Nothing - he was a 24 carat bastard - in every sense of the word.

However, it would help if I had hit the H and not the K . Years since I read the book, but his story was told in Odd Man Out by Elphick and Smith.

Patrick Stanley Vaughan Heenan was an intelligence officer in the British Indian Army iirc (I think he was a liasion officer attached to the RAF) who fed information to the Japanese prior to, and during, the initial attack on Malaya. He was caught in the act and executed.


IIRC, he was executed as Singapore was falling, in a very summary way. Just a gunshot to the head, and dumping him in the harbor. I don't condone that type of justice generally, but from what I remember reading, he earned it

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RE: Just watched a staggering documentary - 5/23/2012 8:06:55 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Special? Nothing - he was a 24 carat bastard - in every sense of the word.

However, it would help if I had hit the H and not the K . Years since I read the book, but his story was told in Odd Man Out by Elphick and Smith.

Patrick Stanley Vaughan Heenan was an intelligence officer in the British Indian Army iirc (I think he was a liasion officer attached to the RAF) who fed information to the Japanese prior to, and during, the initial attack on Malaya. He was caught in the act and executed.


IIRC, he was executed as Singapore was falling, in a very summary way. Just a gunshot to the head, and dumping him in the harbor. I don't condone that type of justice generally, but from what I remember reading, he earned it
Wrspite1

Yep - bullet to the head - missd his brain by 6-foot. Lets just hope he didn't die straightaway.

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RE: Just watched a staggering documentary - 5/23/2012 9:21:04 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3

Amazing and quite shocking. Well worth a view if you can get it via Iplayer.

Roger





Warspite1

Wow Thanks for the link Roger Neilson 3. Absolutely fascinating story.

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RE: Just watched a staggering documentary - 5/23/2012 10:37:54 PM   
Roger Neilson 3


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What I found most amazing was he got away with it because he was part of the aristocracy and Churchill didn't dare 'rock the boat'.

Times have changed..... well maybe not actually.

Must be tough living on a multimillion pension.....

Roger

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RE: Just watched a staggering documentary - 5/23/2012 11:07:48 PM   
AW1Steve


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WoW! I'll look forward to seeing it in a couple of years when BBC America gets around to showing it.

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RE: Just watched a staggering documentary - 5/24/2012 2:51:27 AM   
dorjun driver


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Why wait? It's here. It has a couple of errors in fact, but still, an interesting hour.

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RE: Just watched a staggering documentary - 5/24/2012 2:58:39 AM   
jmalter

 

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thx for posting the add'l info, Roger.

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