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1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ?

 
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1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ? - 5/20/2012 7:48:39 PM   
scout1


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Status: offline 		Curious as to the general consensus relative to whether the allied fighters had an advantage at higher altitudes in the 1943+ time period ? Also, whether sweeping at high altitude is considered gamey since there is no allowance for the japanese player to effectively order CAP to ignore high altitude sweeps ?

I seem to be getting my hat handed to me as the Japanese over my bases and was wondering whether it was more than my poor choices/orders ...... ?
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RE: 1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ? - 5/21/2012 2:02:27 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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the air model is not right at all..

...it ignores that ac with high alt engines were really slow at low alt

(Mig-3, P-47, P-38, etc)

and the game engine prefers starting altitude versus pilot skill, and other ac attributes

.... i almost prefer a generic "dogfight" value like in PacWar





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RE: 1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ? - 5/21/2012 2:39:26 AM   
Disco Duck

 

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Let the flamewar begin! Actually this has been covered on many threads so as tempting as it is to say something like " whadya mean the P-38 was slow at low altitudes" I will just sit back and enjoy the show.

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RE: 1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ? - 5/21/2012 2:47:45 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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in the field of science, flamewar is called debate

P-47 speed chart (typical high altitude fighter)




Attachment (1)

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RE: 1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ? - 5/21/2012 2:49:04 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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Ki-61 speed chart (typical 1-stage supercharger, low altitude fighter)




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RE: 1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ? - 5/21/2012 2:55:37 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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P-47 were in big trouble below 15,000 feet

with 240kg/m2 you won't out maneouver anything, can't power dive at sea level

and they typically operated at low altitude in the ground support role, so this scenario was common

same was true for Ki-61 at high altitude however, but this is already represented in the game with the
1-stage engines Mvr penalty while the high altitude engines have no penalties

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RE: 1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ? - 5/21/2012 5:52:21 AM   
LoBaron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

Curious as to the general consensus relative to whether the allied fighters had an advantage at higher altitudes in the 1943+ time period ? Also, whether sweeping at high altitude is considered gamey since there is no allowance for the japanese player to effectively order CAP to ignore high altitude sweeps ?

I seem to be getting my hat handed to me as the Japanese over my bases and was wondering whether it was more than my poor choices/orders ...... ?


No consensus, I´d rather say its a peaceful next-to-each-other.

There is a pretty high chance that you get your ass handed due to more diverse factors than altitude only, but I guess you are aware of that.

The P47 is easily the best fighter the Allies can muster late war, and I guess this is your current Nemesis. Our opponent does pretty well by combining
George as high altitude fighter and several other airframes (Jack for example) at lower altitudes. Layered CAP works well, except if outnumbered badly,
but he still probably loses more planes than us, and it is undoubted that, if we want to, we can achieve air superiority on bases within 4-5 hexes of our own
bases easily. Further out it is a bit more balanced.
Mike does a great job to decide when its enough and pull back, and sets the next CAP station a bit further away. Works good if we fall for it, which happens on
a regular basis.

Personally I think this reflects reality quite well, and in fact its pretty much payback for the first year when the same happens with swapped symptoms when
you want to effectively fight Oscars with Warhawks, but with regards to high alt sweep you might find opinions differ. I see many games using the best, or second best,
alt band as limit for sweeps, which is basically everything a good HR should be: easy to follow, with exactly the effects desired on a broad scale.

PS: looks like you got a Commander Stormwolf, might want to see a doctor...

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RE: 1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ? - 5/21/2012 7:04:52 AM   
armin


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WITP AE is somethink like wikipedia or collectors edition of war books. It isnt a simulator. Maybe you could think about it as chess game or card game. You get pieces that you move around board with certain stats and to make game equal certain compromises must exist. Just example do you think that any national states would give supplies, resources for free within 24h anywhere to units that have lesser command structure then their hq hundred of miles away of different nation? Same is it with the CAP its just working on agreement. If you want to play simulator then air simulator is way to go but to expect the board game will have same quality as game that is based on real testing of aicrafts and orginal construction plans is not good.

< Message edited by armin -- 5/21/2012 2:38:51 PM >

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RE: 1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ? - 5/21/2012 3:29:32 PM   
crsutton


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Status: offline 		Of course it should be pointed out that your charts shows that the P47 is faster than the KI 61 at all altitiudes.

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RE: 1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ? - 5/21/2012 3:36:52 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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game gives 427mph for thunderbolt at all altitudes.. when that is not right

and punishes Ki-61 at high alt with Mvr penalty

ideas:

a) give Mvr penalty to high alt aircraft at low alt (Mig-3, P-47, etc)

b) instead of different mvr at altitues, give different speeds

c) change the system altogether

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RE: 1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ? - 5/21/2012 3:38:35 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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quote:

WITP AE is somethink like wikipedia or collectors edition of war books. It isnt a simulator. Maybe you could think about it as chess game or card game


As it evolves, and is perfected it can become a serious academic tool

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RE: 1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ? - 5/21/2012 5:23:38 PM   
Shark7


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Status: offline 		Just what I personally do, but...

I tend to keep my fighters in or close to the altitude band they are most maneuverable at. They seem to do a bit better, granted by late war there are so many other factors that lead to decimation of the IJAAF and IJNAF that you can't really number them.

Basic rule of thumb...Japanese fighters do not perform well at high altitude, most (if not all) of them lack super-chargers (which is what the P-47 has over them) and (in a simulation) would lose too much energy climbing that high. IJN and IJA fighters are manuevre fighters, better at turning dog-fights than high altitude slash and dash types of combat.

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RE: 1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ? - 5/21/2012 5:57:40 PM   
Erkki

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Just what I personally do, but...

I tend to keep my fighters in or close to the altitude band they are most maneuverable at. They seem to do a bit better, granted by late war there are so many other factors that lead to decimation of the IJAAF and IJNAF that you can't really number them.

Basic rule of thumb...Japanese fighters do not perform well at high altitude, most (if not all) of them lack super-chargers (which is what the P-47 has over them) and (in a simulation) would lose too much energy climbing that high. IJN and IJA fighters are manuevre fighters, better at turning dog-fights than high altitude slash and dash types of combat.


What P-47 has is turbo superchargers, most WW2 fighters, including Japanese, did have superchargers, though.

Having a turbo supercharger is not necessarily a good thing in air combat and it does increase cost and pilot work load. However it does give P-47 an exceptionally high altitude of best speed though, and good speed there, even if the top speed at low and medium altitudes isnt all that great.

Also agreed that witpae is an operational/strategic war simulator. Not air war simulator.

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RE: 1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ? - 5/21/2012 10:24:21 PM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

even if the top speed at low and medium altitudes isnt all that great.


Compared to what? CRSutton made the observation from which I refrained.

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RE: 1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ? - 5/21/2012 10:41:06 PM   
JWE

 

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Status: offline 		Mr Diehl, we are trying to dial historical things into the results of a game algorithm. A game which you do not play.

I don't care how much you think you know, it is not relevant to the game. A game of algorithms that some of us understand, but you do not.

Please go show off your superior knowledge on some history forum, somewhere. I would hate to shut down an interesting thread, but I will do it in a heartbeat. Go progesterone if you must, but go elsewhere to do it. Thank you.

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RE: 1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ? - 5/21/2012 10:47:29 PM   
mdiehl

 

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Status: offline 		JWE Troll,

This for you. ..l.,

Kindly take your martinet self to a land where Thought Crime is a recognized offense.

Thank you.

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 5/21/2012 11:04:04 PM >

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RE: 1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ? - 5/21/2012 10:56:29 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

Having a turbo supercharger is not necessarily a good thing in air combat and it does increase cost and pilot work load.


Please help me understand the extra workload of a Turbocharger NOTE: http://www.moapilot.com/pdf/May01/May_mp01.pdf I am that David R Trinidad ...

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RE: 1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ? - 5/21/2012 11:04:49 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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turbos and multi-stage superchargers will allow the engine to maintain power
to high altitudes - where there is less air resistance, that is why the top speed is high at high altitudes

at low altitudes, the system is useless weight and drag, and decreases the top speed of an identical plane
that would be single-stage supercharged

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RE: 1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ? - 5/21/2012 11:08:56 PM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

at low altitudes, the system is useless weight and drag,


No it's not. That's why they have multistage turbochargers. At any altitude the device basically increases the rate at which you may burn fuel. In that way it increases the HP output of the engine. You need one more at high altitude, though, than you do at low altitude up to a point. But you're right about the effects of drag changing by alt.

(Plenty of automobiles have superchargers that basically do the same thing as a.c. supercharges, except they are designed for machines that all operate essentially at "low altitude.)

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RE: 1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ? - 5/21/2012 11:13:38 PM   
Erkki

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

quote:

Having a turbo supercharger is not necessarily a good thing in air combat and it does increase cost and pilot work load.


Please help me understand the extra workload of a Turbocharger NOTE: http://www.moapilot.com/pdf/May01/May_mp01.pdf I am that David R Trinidad ...


Hey. I dont like screenshot-crop-quoting mystic sources unlike some other people here, so here is the P-47N manual:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/7968265/P47-Manual

Page 15 onwards for powerplant and how to operate it. As you can see, the pilot has an extra lever to move and an additional gauge to keep his eyes on, with some gauge reading restrictions to avoid damage and sudden power loss. A P-47 for example may not throttle back very quickly from high rpm, high manifold pressure high supercharger speed state. An enemy pilot knowing that could use it to help a tailing P-47 overshoot him, for example.

Compared to P-47 or P-38 planes like Bf 109 or especially Fw 190 are simple to fly machines with much lower pilot workload - just the stick, pedals, one lever(compared to P-47's 3 or the typical 2) and switch buttons in that lever for flaps and trim. Besides switching radio channels(and arming the weapons I think?), Fw 190 has HOTAS!

EDIT: I couldnt find a (more or less valid) source, but I believe that the turbo-supercharger operation was less automated in the earlier models, compared to the N. Those could have been trickier to fly in that regard.

edit2: fixed typos

< Message edited by Erkki -- 5/21/2012 11:30:44 PM >

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RE: 1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ? - 5/21/2012 11:17:59 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf


turbos and multi-stage superchargers will allow the engine to maintain power
to high altitudes - where there is less air resistance, that is why the top speed is high at high altitudes

at low altitudes, the system is useless weight and drag, and decreases the top speed of an identical plane
that would be single-stage supercharged


I am not sure what you are referring to .. but ... for example .. the TSIO-360-MB develops 4" greater manifold pressure all the way to the crtical altitude of 18000 feet the TSIO-420-N develops this all the way to 27,000 feet. In these cases more power than an normally aspirated engine by increasing the virtual stroke volume.

(CI * LS * RPM) /K = HP .. cubic inches * linear stroke * RPM / constant = Thrust HP * efficiency = BHP brake horsepower ..

It is quite possible to produce a heck of lot more HP for much less weight by increasing the stroke volume above normal atmosphere right up to the critical altitude.. it was the Mooney Mantra ..and how the Bravo was the fastest single in the business

The problem is heat .. it is explained in my article ..

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RE: 1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ? - 5/21/2012 11:29:26 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

Page 15 onwards for powerplant and how to operate it. As you can see, the pilot has an extra lever to move and an additional gauge to keep his eyes on, with some gauge reading restrictions to avoid damage and sudden power loss. A P-47 for example may not throttle back very quickly from high throttle high supercharger pressure. An enemy pilot knowing that could use it to help a tailing P-47 overshoot him, for example.


Instead of the stove pipe wastegate as per my article .. I am seeing that the P-47 is using a manual wastegate .. ok .. I get it although in terms of workload I am not sure how much more but I was never trying to shoot down anything in my Mooney

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RE: 1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ? - 5/22/2012 12:16:43 AM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki
What P-47 has is turbo superchargers, most WW2 fighters, including Japanese, did have superchargers, though.

Having a turbo supercharger is not necessarily a good thing in air combat and it does increase cost and pilot work load. However it does give P-47 an exceptionally high altitude of best speed though, and good speed there, even if the top speed at low and medium altitudes isnt all that great.

Also agreed that witpae is an operational/strategic war simulator. Not air war simulator.


Agreed. Whatever a game tries to simulate, the better the model for something, the more data it takes to build the model. In a typical flight simulator, the data for a particular aircraft is several KB minimum. Some simulators may be up around 100KB. The simulator covers every aspect of aircraft performance and does it's best to reproduce all those aspects accurately.

AE is a larger scale "simulation" (though I would hesitate to call it a simulation). It's strength is modeling the entire war to a degree never done in any other game. The model is much larger scale than a flight simulator and many details below the operational level need to be abstracted. Each aircraft in the air model is modeled with less than 100 bytes of data. Far less than even the more simple flight simulators out there.

A lot of details of aircraft performance are simplified because of this. The data simply isn't there, and there is no room to add such data.

There are some areas where results aren't quite historical, but AE's results are much closer to historical than WitP was, and they are pretty darn good when you compare it to other games that look at military conflict from this scale.

AE can't be everything. Modeling reality to the degree necessary would be beyond the capabilities of modern PCs and would take a very long time to design and code.

Bill

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RE: 1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ? - 5/22/2012 2:13:50 AM   
scout1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

Curious as to the general consensus relative to whether the allied fighters had an advantage at higher altitudes in the 1943+ time period ? Also, whether sweeping at high altitude is considered gamey since there is no allowance for the japanese player to effectively order CAP to ignore high altitude sweeps ?

I seem to be getting my hat handed to me as the Japanese over my bases and was wondering whether it was more than my poor choices/orders ...... ?


Didn't intend to start a theoretical debate ..... Just seems like either player should have the ability to fly CAP AND intentionally ignore high or low altitude (or at least request too). Sure, that may result in permitting the bombers in, but at least it is a choice. Sweeping at select altitudes shouldn't beget a response from a bi-plane to chase after it .... the flyboys were gutsy as hell, but several did have the smarts to know when to pick a fight another day ...... at least those who survived .....

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RE: 1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ? - 5/22/2012 5:29:39 AM   
crsutton


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Status: offline 		In game terms the Japanese player tends to hold the advantage early in the war. Part of the problem is most play with PDU on and that tends to bring a lot of tojos into the game which have a good speed and the best max ceiling. Generally speaking, the plane that can fly higher gets the advantage. This is not too far off the historical mark either. Once the second generation Allied planes come into the game the worm turns fast. Better, faster and able to fly higher than pretty much any Japanese plane the Allied player can just do a lot of high sweeps. This really is not out of historical proportion. The only really skewed thing is that baring a HR limiting heights you are going to see a lot of combat at very high altitudes. Most players have come up with reasonable solutions both in tactics and using common sense house rules.

So yes, both historically and in game terms Allied fighters should start to do very well in 1943, and the ability to go higher is a factor.

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RE: 1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ? - 5/22/2012 2:07:17 PM   
witpqs

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

In game terms the Japanese player tends to hold the advantage early in the war. Part of the problem is most play with PDU on and that tends to bring a lot of tojos into the game which have a good speed and the best max ceiling. Generally speaking, the plane that can fly higher gets the advantage. This is not too far off the historical mark either. Once the second generation Allied planes come into the game the worm turns fast. Better, faster and able to fly higher than pretty much any Japanese plane the Allied player can just do a lot of high sweeps. This really is not out of historical proportion. The only really skewed thing is that baring a HR limiting heights you are going to see a lot of combat at very high altitudes. Most players have come up with reasonable solutions both in tactics and using common sense house rules.

So yes, both historically and in game terms Allied fighters should start to do very well in 1943, and the ability to go higher is a factor.

Look at those fighter combat altitudes as metaphors and the problem disappears. All that matters is the relative altitude, i.e. "this one is higher than that one" which is historical as opposed to "the display says 31,000ft instead of 22,000ft" which is unhistorical.

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RE: 1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ? - 5/22/2012 4:04:51 PM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

In game terms the Japanese player tends to hold the advantage early in the war. Part of the problem is most play with PDU on and that tends to bring a lot of tojos into the game which have a good speed and the best max ceiling. Generally speaking, the plane that can fly higher gets the advantage. This is not too far off the historical mark either. Once the second generation Allied planes come into the game the worm turns fast. Better, faster and able to fly higher than pretty much any Japanese plane the Allied player can just do a lot of high sweeps. This really is not out of historical proportion. The only really skewed thing is that baring a HR limiting heights you are going to see a lot of combat at very high altitudes. Most players have come up with reasonable solutions both in tactics and using common sense house rules.

So yes, both historically and in game terms Allied fighters should start to do very well in 1943, and the ability to go higher is a factor.


I would also add that by 1943, the USAAC and USN had already rotated a number of very experienced pilots back the the US as pilot trainers, and that made a big difference. US pilots benefited from this experience as those that had been in combat and survived could pass on the tactics they had used to survive. IJAAF and IJNAF pilots stayed on station until they were either seriously wounded or died.

In the game, you will note that this is reflected in that while IJNAF and IJAAF pilot skills degrade as the war drags on, USN, USMC and USN pilots come out of the pools fairly well trained. Add better pilots and better airframes and it equals mostly Allied air victories.



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RE: 1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ? - 5/22/2012 5:42:57 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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Japanese and Allied planes were pretty evenly matched throughout the entire war,
it was the pilots that made the difference, both early on (japanese success with oscars
in 1941/1942) and later (1943 japanese air crew is badly trained and is cut to pieces above new guinea and rabaul)



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RE: 1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ? - 5/22/2012 5:52:45 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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People have watched too many episodes of dogfights

most us fighters (even 1943 onwards) were pretty helpless at low altitude

that being said, a Corsair could score hits with that initial pass from high altitude and score kills that way

even seasoned veterans like Pappy Boyington in corsairs were shot down

since they inevitably would be in a zero's attack position, and as Sakai
called it, at low altitude he had them in a "Sumo lock" the corsair cannot run away
at sea level, cannot turn, has to hope his wingman can clear his tail, hide behind his armor and pray

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVUt_L6TTcw&feature=relmfu

a miltary channel show that seems to tell the truth.. for once

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RE: 1943+ Allied Aircraft Advantage at altitude ? - 5/22/2012 5:55:37 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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quote:

AE can't be everything.


Almost is Well done developers

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