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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II

 
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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/8/2012 5:19:25 PM   
76mm


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I don't think the house rules made much of a difference, although a full-scale run for the hills strategy might have helped Tarhunnas in the opening turns (but would ultimately not have helped). I just think that against a really good German player, there is just not much that a Sov player, even a good one, can do. Meanwhile, almost any Sov player could handle an average German player pretty roughly. Success is asymmetric in this game...

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/8/2012 9:19:30 PM   
Encircled


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There is no doubt at all that it was an excellent performance from Michael

Thats not the issue.

A really, really, really good Russian player had lost by Turn 8.

Thats got to ring some warning bells somewhere, surely?



< Message edited by Encircled -- 6/8/2012 9:20:07 PM >

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/8/2012 9:31:01 PM   
randallw

 

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House rules like this let the Axis player use his advantages without facing the big disadvantages.
Limiting reserve commitments decreases the potential Soviet advantage in manpower/counters, and the forward defense means tighter encirclements ( and less risk of outrunning railheads ).

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/8/2012 10:15:04 PM   
Schmart

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: notenome

I'm getting rather tired of people posting a forward defense is inviable as the Soviets when a lot of Soviet playrs use it. The trick is to know when to run and when to fight.


How does that apply to the historical situation? Did the Russians carry out a stubborn forward defense and then skillfully pull back at the right time? No, they more or less fought forward (which is why they had so many encirclements) and did NOT retreat when smarter/less restricted generals would have done so. German encirclements were largely due to Russian incompetence rather than purely German superiority. You had Panzers running circles around largely static defenses. What happens when you give the Panzers more than historical fuel and supplies going up against the same largely static defenses? It's not a game, and it's not history, it's plain fantasy. Might as well give them fricken' laser beams strapped to their turrets...

Telling Russian players to pull back at the right time simply encourages more fantasy play, and causes some players to complain that the game is unbalanced.

I think I'd be inclined to suggest that Russian MPs should be reduced for the summer of 1941, simulating their inability to competently move forces around. One could then cut out HQ build-up and the generous logistics, and generally reduce the tempo of operations to more realistic levels.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/9/2012 1:00:04 AM   
hfarrish


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Yeah, as has been noted multiple times, if a Soviet player proactively chooses to make the same mistakes as the historical Soviets, there is virtually no chance at recovery - not because the German players are so much smarter, but because the rebuild/replacement schedule will never give you enough troops to reform and continue to defend the line.

Your suggestion is not a bad one...

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/9/2012 1:05:33 AM   
Encircled


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What is really needed is a set of house rules that make the game as playable as possible for both sides.


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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/9/2012 1:31:59 AM   
hfarrish


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I would agree - what's probably prevented that to date is the dramatic number of balancing and other changes that have occurred over the past year and a half; I suspect we are pretty close to done with major changes and the game as is is probably as it shall be until after WITW - so perhaps mods and consistent house rules can now really be developed properly.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/9/2012 6:36:29 AM   
vicberg

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T
I am continuously astonished at the number of venomous shots that are fired my way at this site. I am not going to be drawn in to even try to defend/deflect that rubbish anymore. But I will say a few things to set the record straight in relation to this game.

First the rules agreed to in this game were of Tarhunnas own design bar two. The Reserve limit and No runaways. These were my requests. All others his. Tarhunnas was free to reject mine and play someone else. Ultimately we are all free to play under whatever rules we like. And contrary to the opinion of others I do not deliberately stack the deck in my favour. I honestly try to evoke a better, more fun, more stimulating game from these house rules. I do not try to deceive anyone.

The stock reserve rules, IMO are rubbish. I do not believe putting the entire Soviet Army, or German Army in reserve mode is ok. Hence the more realistic limit. As for its effect on this game, it is a non issue because we did not get to a point where the possible abuse could have made any difference at all.

The run away rule. IMO this is the biggest failing of the game. There is nothing in the game that dissuades running by either side. I am not going in to theories and fixes here. But when I play a game that is supposed to represent a 1941 Barbarossa situation I want to actually fight the enemy, not chase them across a map devoid of units and never get a chance to come to grips with them. That is not my idea of a fun 1941 game. No matter which side I play.

Muling nullified this running ploy. It allowed me to punish a runner. Now that muling is gone I will only play as German with some kind of penalty for Russians who run (Fredrik and I did discuss some political rules that involved penalties for running, on both sides) or my opponents word not to. I also believe that the run ploy, in capable hands guarantees a victory for the SU. I absolutely refuse to sit down and play a game, spending hour upon hour, knowing that I am dooming myself to some desperate defensive game in 1943/44. No thanks. If other players are happy to do that well good for them.

For me in 1941, as German, I want to think I have some chance to pull off the win, or set it up for 1942 or even 1943. If I get to have my shot in 41/42 and fail I am more than happy to then try to survive in to 44/45. But I want my chance at victory first. Running Soviets rob me of that chance/fun. The Soviet only players want to have their winter 41 fun and 44/45 fun but deny the German players their chance at victory and the fun of actually fighting the 1941 Russian Army. Soviet units that disappear in to the depths of Russia should be something for 1942.

I will be more than happy to play *anyone* as Soviet with no house rules. Sounds like a nice relaxing game to me. But I would honestly prefer mirrored games with the limited reserve and no run rule. And as of now a para limit rule as well. I truly hope WITE 2 does a better job at simulating the desperate war of 1941 that occurred. As it stands, the Soviets in WITE can run whenever they feel any heat at all, not much desperation there at all.

A final thing about the house rules. I am willing to play under the same conditions as Russian against any player who will let me play German under those very same conditions. Fredrik has declined the return match at this stage. He has valid reasons. One of which is not having played German for some time. I fully understand this. However, Fredrik I am willing to wait a week or two for you to get up to speed, even longer if you are keen on the return match. I had my fun, you have every right to have yours.

I don't know what else I can say about the rules. If I were saying I will only play German under those conditions then sure that’s pretty sad. But I am willing to play Fredrik again as Soviet with said very same rules.

As for this game. It was the most challenging I have faced. His defensive method was intimidating and it was no walk in the park. It took hours to figure out how to unravel it. Even my wife commented on the time it was taking for a move. A first. This is the great myth, winning as Axis is easy. What rubbish. Winning as the Soviets is easy when you can run for hills at the slightest sign of trouble. The Soviet only crew can never appreciate the effort, pressure, stress and time commitment it takes to achieve the results the good Axis players do. If you don't apply yourself fully against a good Russian player its curtains by late summer.

I think Tarhunnas forward strategy may well work with some tweaking. More than a few of my advances were almost stopped. With a breakthrough coming only with the last throw of the dice. A 2.2 : 1 win or some such. The thing the German must have is momentum. As soon as it stops, trouble.

Tarhunnas has been a great opponent. I truly enjoyed the game. I wish him well in his other games. But I hope he takes up my offer of the mirror. I can wait.


I saw this one a mile away. Everyone has been bitching about mules, and in the hands of TWO players on this site, mules were overwhelming. But has there been anything done about Soviet run away with picket strategy? Not much, other that German players pointing out it becomes a clickfest in 42 and 43. This game is making a point. It's not to side favor for Michael. The personal attacks are worthless. It's to show what happens if the Soviets are forced to fight historically. Because if they are allowed to run away and put silly pickets up everywhere with no consequences, the game becomes a silly clickfest for the Germans later. Michael may have shown that a historical Soviet game is weighted towards the Germans. OK. Now we have something to work with. Balance the game in 41 from this perspective. Run away should hurt the Soviets. Don't run away, and German panzers may be overweighted. Balance somewhere in middle. But don't sit here an try to tell me that the game is fine as is. It isn't. It needs to be better balanced.


< Message edited by vicberg -- 6/9/2012 6:42:50 AM >

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/9/2012 6:37:57 AM   
vicberg

 

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Flav, you are so weighted in Soviet perspective, I'm almost tempted to ignore everything you say in the future. You have no interest in creating a balanced game. I've seen too many posts from you.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/9/2012 6:40:57 AM   
vicberg

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I don't think the house rules made much of a difference, although a full-scale run for the hills strategy might have helped Tarhunnas in the opening turns (but would ultimately not have helped). I just think that against a really good German player, there is just not much that a Sov player, even a good one, can do. Meanwhile, almost any Sov player could handle an average German player pretty roughly. Success is asymmetric in this game...


Disagree. Maybe you are right against 2 german players out of how many? But this would have been an entirely different game if Sovs allowed to run away. I would like to see a rematch with the Soviets allowed to run away. See what happens. See if game becomes a clickfest even in Michaelt's hands.

I'd highly encourage a rematch with the ability for Soviet run away. Michael, if you want to make your point, this is the way to do it.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/9/2012 2:44:30 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

A really, really, really good Russian player had lost by Turn 8.

Thats got to ring some warning bells somewhere, surely?


I would not hold my breath

Chances are some players think they've finally found the Holy Grail... Why would they let it go? Quoting Charlton Heston: "you can take my gun from my cold dead hands"

Morale of the story for Soviet players: ignore completely the weird rules that will lead you to utter annihilation. And let some German players cry. End of the problem...




Attachment (1)

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/9/2012 3:13:07 PM   
Flaviusx


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Vic, it all depends what you mean by the term of "balance." Obviously, different people have different and very unreconcilable ideas of what that means. My idea of balance does not include turn 8 losses by the Soviet Union. I'm crazy that way.

You can always green button me.

Michael T lies on the other end of the spectrum here. He is completely cool with these results and is quite untroubled by his non stop string of successes and keeps jerking the rules set around to make sure he never sees 1942. That's his idea of balance. You can go with that if you want.



< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 6/9/2012 3:14:22 PM >


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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/9/2012 3:19:28 PM   
Tarhunnas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

A really, really, really good Russian player had lost by Turn 8.




Not feeling really, really, really, good after this.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/9/2012 3:30:30 PM   
Klydon


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There are some fundamental logistical issues not only with this game, but any game in terms of balance:

1. Do you try to balance the game so that in the hands of two ok-good players, you get a good game or do you try to make it balanced between two expert players? There is a big difference in what it takes to balance.

2. Just about every other East front game is a slugfest/brawl (with the Germans with a clear superiority in 1941, and the Russians in 1944), not a track meet. This game is a track meet clickfest. Russians run in 1941, Germans run in the winter, Russians run again in 1942. This is silly and is the worst part of this game which makes it totally not worth playing at this point as is between two humans and it won't be worth playing until those issues are resolved.

@TD as far as letting the Germans cry with stock rules. That is part of the problem with this game and why things have dropped way off. Try getting a German to play with stock rules. It isn't fun for the reasons I mentioned above.

While opinions may vary as far as the house rules set up in this game, one thing that everyone has to admit is that in its short life, it was an AAR that got a lot of attention and was interesting because there was actual fighting going on and because of the caliber of the two players involved. It ended badly for the Russians, but my guess if the same two players went again, Tarhunnas may well do better after what I am sure was a learning experience for him. Michael may also be able to do better as well, but I think it was a bigger learning experience for Tarhunnas.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/9/2012 3:30:32 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc

By the very nature of it, this wont ever happen. U start with 4m man and get around 3 to 3,5mil manpower in reinforcement/replacement before the start of the blizzard. This is set high not low. Thats around 7 mil in all. If u lose 6 mil u wouldnt have any thing left in ur combat forces.
What u get in game arent close to the historic mobilization numbers. Hench u cant lose historic numbers and have any thing left. If u have no troops u cant defend/hold any thing.


More thoughts about this My sources (in this case a book written by Sokolovski, Marshall of the Soviet Union) say during 1941 (5 months + 1 week that is) 150 rifle divisions and brigades were sent to the front. Well, these numbers actually are the same on the game if you check the reinforcements thing.

Shoud I conclude that the manpower numbers are not correct then (at least for the first months )? This would make sense. Once invaded, there was a MASSIVE mobilisation. In any case, a mobilisation that could afford 6 million losses (fact).

People can of course disagree, but next step would be explaining how the Red Army survived and then managed to counter-attack with er... 1.5 million soldiers

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/9/2012 3:40:36 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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Wait wait wait! The numbers I gave are NOT correct. These are the correct ones (100%)

Date: from 22 june to 1 december.

Rifle Divisions sent to the Front: 150
Rifle Brigades sent to the Front: 44

And there is more!

These rifle divisions were only the 52% of the RESERVE rifle divisions. The rifle brigades were the 47%...

Therefore, no, not all the counters are on the game, along with the short manpower...

EDIT: all these units belonged to Stavka, were the reserves the state had mobilized, assembled. As you can see, after these massive deployments, Stavka still had the 48% of the rifle divisions and the 53% of the brigades... So roughly only the 50% of the reserves were committed to more or less stop the Blitzkrieg. Or if you prefer, the 50% of the reserves were available to meet future dangers... or counter-attacks aka Moscow Counter-Offensive.

< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 6/9/2012 4:20:06 PM >


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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/9/2012 3:42:21 PM   
Encircled


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With these rules, Michael T would wipe the floor with any Russian player.

I know what I'm doing, but with these rules, I'd be wasting three weeks of my time to get my ass kicked, and the worst part of it would be that whatever I did (within the rules for this particular game), it wouldn't make any difference.

I haven't played since last year (RL and kids reasons), but if I played against a human again, I'd want to make sure that it wasn't a waste of time, and fun for me.


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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/9/2012 3:45:11 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

@TD as far as letting the Germans cry with stock rules. That is part of the problem with this game and why things have dropped way off. Try getting a German to play with stock rules. It isn't fun for the reasons I mentioned above.


Klydon, I would gladly do what Michael wants. But give me the counters and men. See above my previous post

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/9/2012 3:59:06 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
Not feeling really, really, really, good after this.


Your modesty is appreciated, but your conclusion is wrong. You did your best, no major mistakes. You were tied in the basement, and with NO massive reserves behind you... because they are not on the game in the first place. You were taking more or less historical losses but there were no historical mobilsation and counters behind your back. That's all

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/9/2012 4:27:46 PM   
Aurelian

 

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The 5.5-million man Red Army lost at least 2.8 million men by 1 October
and 1.6 million more by 31 December. During this period the Red Army
raised 821 division equivalents (483 rifle, 73 tank, 31 mechanized, and 101
cavalry divisions and 266 rifle, tank, and ski brigades) and lost a total of 229
division equivalents.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/9/2012 4:36:01 PM   
RCH


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Tarhunnas was fighting both the Axis and the game itself.

The IGOUGO system left him flat footed and the unrealistic supply system allowed panzers to push deep into his lines when they should have been past fumes.

Half the movement and double the turns.

Make a more realistic logistics system.

These are, in my opinion, are two major problems with the game.

The idea of using counters to resemble supply build up is a good idea.


Everyone agrees on logistics not everyone on IGOUGO.


These same things work against the Axis later on in the war.

I believe in German what ifs and that the Axis did and should have a chance for victory in 1941 and a slight chance in 1942. Michael is right about the Axis should be able to win the game or what is the point in playing.

< Message edited by RCH -- 6/9/2012 4:50:37 PM >

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/9/2012 5:03:05 PM   
Encircled


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Well one thing is for sure, there isn't any danger of an Axis player losing with these rules.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/9/2012 5:15:56 PM   
RCH


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The rules never came into play. Everyone talks about the rules when they never reached a point where they mattered.

Michael T is not the average player. I for one will never be able to play as well as he does. Are all future versions going to be designed to defeat Michael T?

Only thing proven here is that a very forward defense does not work against a very competent Axis player. If the Soviet player had ran behind the Dnepr it would have been a different game. This tells the Soviet to run and tells the German that there is not much reason to play the game because the Soviets run and there is never a chance to strike a winning blow or any blow at all that will affect the game in a way that will mean anything but destruction for the Axis player as the game plays out.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/9/2012 6:15:19 PM   
vicberg

 

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Flav, I'm never going to green button. You have far too much good stuff to say. I'd suggest reading Michael's posts again. He's been saying the same thing for a while now. He would love Soviets with no house rules because he knows that Soviets will always win. The only way Germans can win is if 1) using mules, which isn't possible anymore and 2) forcing the Soviets to fight forward. Same message in almost every post.

I believe the fundamental problem right now is this belief that Soviets should always win. That's a game not worth playing. Soviets should be forced to fight forward to some degree or risk the game going well into 45. Simple as that. Preserving the red army is far and away more important than Moscow, Lgrad, anything else, as the game currently stands. Which is why Michael didn't bother with them. He went after the army because that's the ONLY way the Germans can win.

So I agree, there isn't consensus on what a "balanced" game looks like. From my perspective, both sides have the chance to win. For Germans, that means the destruction of the red army in 41 or taking enough major cities so that Soviet production is damaged enough for a competitive 42 and the game possibly going into 45.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/9/2012 7:49:34 PM   
gids

 

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im just playing a game against Bigbaba ,and i used forward defense like a maniac ,i dont like to use forward defense after my game against tarhunnas ,but this time i think its proven worthwile ,he only captured leningrad from the main cities now the point i dont like,i had to sacrifice over 60 !!!!! divisions so i could get sparetime.....and that is .... not fun if you like to play sparingly with troops and with a bit of thought, i followed the AAR but i did know it wouldnt last longer then max 20 turns to finish it after i saw the first 4 turns plus the adding houserules ,it was a recipe for disaster
both are excellent players  no argument about that  .
Now,you cant expect the programers of the game to change the whole supply system because of 1 gamer who prob stares times and times again on the screen and redos  every opening move till he founds what best,Rest asured in WitW im sure michael will find another few ways to eummm "cheat " the system 
A real war is unpredictable ....now every division is known every spot every hill or difficult point ,the first turn for a soviet is not even a "real" turn anymore,its something you have to stare at for 5 min do your things and push next turn :p ,now if you know michael (from the AAR)and you know his houserules and you know how he plays and you still play him ,then you deserve a medal .I dont know how he does his turns serverbased but im sure hes not done in an hour even 2 :),small sidenote  if you want to play michael in a 42 game ask him to start in 42 ,who knows maybe he will say yes,i have no clue,chances are pretty steep he will get stalingrad though ;) ,otherwise good AAR tarhunnas and a valiant effort to play michael :)
PS ...i also want to see the supply system changed,not because of michael  just because its not Realistic ,from what i read it will be better in WitW


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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/9/2012 7:56:56 PM   
M60A3TTS

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

Flav, I'm never going to green button. You have far too much good stuff to say. I'd suggest reading Michael's posts again. He's been saying the same thing for a while now. He would love Soviets with no house rules because he knows that Soviets will always win. The only way Germans can win is if 1) using mules, which isn't possible anymore and 2) forcing the Soviets to fight forward.


You say this as if it is gospel, yet can't show a body of evidence to support the claim. Where are all these AARs that the Soviets are winning?

Answer: They aren't there.

The stock answer seems to be that when these AARs goes in favor of the Axis, it's a good Axis player vs. a lesser Soviet one. Yet we're still waiting for one of these AARs between two equal players where the Soviets are in Berlin before May 1945. That hardly supports a claim of a Soviet slam-dunk between equals.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/9/2012 8:30:00 PM   
Klydon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS


quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

Flav, I'm never going to green button. You have far too much good stuff to say. I'd suggest reading Michael's posts again. He's been saying the same thing for a while now. He would love Soviets with no house rules because he knows that Soviets will always win. The only way Germans can win is if 1) using mules, which isn't possible anymore and 2) forcing the Soviets to fight forward.


You say this as if it is gospel, yet can't show a body of evidence to support the claim. Where are all these AARs that the Soviets are winning?

Answer: They aren't there.

The stock answer seems to be that when these AARs goes in favor of the Axis, it's a good Axis player vs. a lesser Soviet one. Yet we're still waiting for one of these AARs between two equal players where the Soviets are in Berlin before May 1945. That hardly supports a claim of a Soviet slam-dunk between equals.


The issue with the game right now between two players of about equal experience is one of two things generally happens.

In one scenario, the Russians try to stand and do some fighting. The Germans generally slaughter the 1941 army and there is not enough left to fight with, so most Russians surrender.

In the other, the Russians run for the hills, evacuating what they can, but they don't hold ground or at the very least, lose as little of their army as possible and could care less if they lose such places like Leningrad/Moscow, etc. The Germans return the favor during the winter, running hard to the west to avoid the Russian blizzard offensive. The cycle repeats once again in 1942 when the Russians once again run east to avoid any German spring/summer offensive. Going into the fall of 1942, the Russians will look to start making local attacks where they can and continue to slowly take the fight to the Germans, launching more and more attacks over time and grinding the Germans down. In this version, the Germans generally give up the game after being frustrated. The issue with this version is the game is more of a click fest than anything else with both armies chasing each other all over the map for well over the first 100 turns. Sorry, but that isn't my idea of fun.. for either side and I think most players would agree with that.

Considering the Russians have the choice as to which way to play and know if they do the first version they stand much less of a chance to win, then they are going to pick the second version and once most Germans see that, they don't want any part of it.

The Eastern front campaign should be a Clash of the Titans, not who can best manage a track meet.

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 237
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/9/2012 8:30:25 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 2341
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline
It's a fact I have never lost a game as Soviet (people conveiniantly forget that) And under the current set of rules I never will. I will be playing Soviet next. I challenge any player out there who thinks he can beat me as Soviet under the Stock rules. HELLOOOO!!! Where are you?

No house rules.
Server game.
Choose your weather system. Random or not.

Apparently under these stock conditions the poor Soviets still face an uphill battle. PROVE IT!

Gids. I really don't want to bother with your rubbish but I can't put up with it any longer.

Does your mind comprehend that ANY serious player, performer, entertainer or whatever spends FAR more time practicing their craft than actually playing or performing it?

Do you need me to cite examples for you?

You are accusing me of cheating because I practice?

You are an idiot.

_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 238
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/9/2012 9:30:25 PM   
gids

 

Posts: 349
Joined: 12/2/2010
Status: offline
i putted the "cheat" between  brackets because its not really a cheat but made by the designers that way and so ok to use  ,so keep the tone to a normal level and dont be rude nor impolite because that is totally a sign of stupidity,calling names is a last resort of defense and shows a lack of brains,especially on forums
//gids

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 239
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/9/2012 10:00:38 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 2140
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: gids
,small sidenote  if you want to play michael in a 42 game ask him to start in 42 ,who knows maybe he will say yes,i have no clue,chances are pretty steep he will get stalingrad though ;) ,otherwise good AAR tarhunnas and a valiant effort to play michael :)


You wouldn't want to play the Sovs in the 42 scenario. It has not been adjusted for the new command points. That and all the static units spells lots of trouble.

(in reply to gids)
Post #: 240
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