The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please)

[Tarhunnas]

This is an AAR with Michael T taking command of the invading hordes and me in command of the Workers and Pissants Red Army.

* GC41-45 alternate VP260
* Always use latest beta
* Non-random weather
* Locked support
* Full FOW

House rules:
* Max 3 airbase attacks per airbase/turn after the first turn.
* No HQ bombings.
* No Soviet landings west of the Crimea before 43 unless Sevastopol is Soviet held.
* Reserves limited to three units per HQ, of which only two may be divisions or corps.
* No Soviet runaways in 1941, Germans continue to attack up to blizzard and no German runaway in blizzard.
* No quitting just because things are going badly.

[Tarhunnas]

Turn 1.

A truly excellent opening by my opponent. The Lvov pocket, the Kovel pocket and the usual assorted other pockets as well. About the only thing he doesn't do is take Riga and cross the Dvina. Really one of the best German first moves I have seen!

And none of the pockets look easily breakable, no sloppiness at all that I can see at first glance. This will be tough!

[Tarhunnas]

After Soviet moves. He didn't leave me much to work with. It was all I could do to scrabble together a half decent checkerboard in the center and south. It was worst in the center, I had to rail in a lot of units here to even get a checkerboard together. In the north I have the Dvina line which will hopefully buy me a turn. Here is the north and center.

[Tarhunnas]

The south after Soviet moves.

[juret]

this will be a good game to follow. no retreating rules ....

[gids]

thing is michael does like prob 20 times his opening move in singleplayer till its perfected :p nothing forbids that but it smells i think,but it will be special to see tarhunnas against michael with all his tricks and "special" stuff i call it to be nice

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
* No Soviet runaways in 1941, Germans continue to attack up to blizzard and no German runaway in blizzard.

ORIGINAL: juret
this will be a good game to follow. no retreating rules ....

The *only* problem is that the first who must stubbornly stay and then be mauled is the Soviet side... [:D] So perhaps the Germans will have little to fear during the winter, therefore he can easily avoid a runaway during the blizzard... [:D]

SW Front annihilated. Will you stay where you are, Tarhunnas (no runaway)? [;)] Good luck...

Perhaps I am wrong but as long as the pace of operations is irrational and you have mere ants a stubborn defence makes no sense at all. Only one side wins: the Germans... Michael is such a fox...

Anyway we will see, as this game might answer some of these questions [:)]

[timmyab]

Well, nobody can accuse you of running away here, but I think we may be about to see why a certain amount of running is vital for the Soviets when facing a strong opponent.
In the North, even though he hasn't crossed the Dvina (?), I think there should be some strength holding the river line that runs South from Pskov.The bit from the town of Ostrov North is particularly important.If you can occupy the forts to the South of Ostrov as well, then so much the better.
In the center I usually put a strong picket along the Berezina and fill in behind with a checkerboard.There are also a couple of strategically vital hexes behind the Dnieper that need to be occupied by something to stop any chance of them getting across on turn two, even a sec regiment could be enough to prevent a crossing.
In the South, I think he'll breakthrough in strength between Zhitomir and Vinnitsa.
Good luck.I'll be following this one.

[DrewBlack]

Hi
 
This ones going to be real interesting, one question can you tell me what version of the beta you are using im surprised by his ability to use reg. movement to create pockets as the newest version was supposed to help/control this?
 
Drew 

[Zonso]

ORIGINAL: DrewBlack

Hi

This ones going to be real interesting, one question can you tell me what version of the beta you are using im surprised by his ability to use reg. movement to create pockets as the newest version was supposed to help/control this?

Drew 

It does considerably. However, it doesn't mean you cannot break down to regiments and use them separately if you have the MPs. Take a look at the extended Lvov opening to see how much this opening has been scaled back.

[Flaviusx]

It's not so much that running is necessary. It's that in the south with a good Lvov opening there's just not enough Red Army left to do anything more than merely delay. I will be amazed if Tarhunnas can prevent a Dnepr crossing past turn 6.

The weak northern opening however surprises me.

[Klydon]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

The weak northern opening however surprises me.

+1

Not only is Riga still around, but no panzer units across the river. He may not have big plans on Leningrad, but there is still a strategic gain to stretch the Russians as much as possible and also to threaten as much as possible.

I would be curious on his reasoning with this if it has something to do with supplies over a major river.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

The weak northern opening however surprises me.

+1

Not only is Riga still around, but no panzer units across the river. He may not have big plans on Leningrad, but there is still a strategic gain to stretch the Russians as much as possible and also to threaten as much as possible.

I would be curious on his reasoning with this if it has something to do with supplies over a major river.

Well, he can't be strong everywhere. I am pretty sure he loaned panzers from AGC to AGS, and I think he sent some of AGN Panzers to help out in the center. I think he will push harder in the center and south than in the north.

[76mm]

should be an excellent game, will be watching this one.

[Balou]

No Soviet runaways in 1941

With an axis opening like this one in the south + above house rule, good luck Tarhunnas. BTW, where exactly does "running away" starts and where does it end ?

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: Balou

No Soviet runaways in 1941

With an axis opening like this one in the south + above house rule, good luck Tarhunnas. BTW, where exactly does "running away" starts and where does it end ?

Oh, there's obvious workarounds to this. Just starve SW Front of reinforcements and let the remnants die. Build up a new front well to the east of it with new cadres, as those remnants expend themselves delaying the Axis.

Not strictly speaking a "runaway" but achieves the same result.

But Axis players are deluding themselves into thinking that there is any conceivable way to mount a forward defense in the south following a strong Lvov opener. It cannot be done. The runaway is an artifact of the opener. People have got this exactly wrong and do the opener with the idea that it will prevent the runaway.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

But Axis players are deluding themselves into thinking that there is any conceivable way to mount a forward defense in the south following a strong Lvov opener. It cannot be done. The runaway is an artifact of the opener. People have got this exactly wrong and do the opener with the idea that it will prevent the runaway.

Well, you can hardly expect an Axis player to forgo the obvious advantage of trapping as many Soviet units as possible in some hope that the Soviets might not run away, and knowing that if they don't run away those forces will delay him badly. Doing the as large a Lvov pocket as possible will alwyas be an optimum Axis opening. If you want it to go away, it must be fixed in the game, by for example cutting 5 MP off the panzers of AGS.

[Flaviusx]

Tarhunnas, I've concluded at this point that we are stuck with it. Fundamental redesign of the surprise turn will have to wait until WITE2. That's the real issue here, the surprise turn itself is badly designed. I've been saying this for quite some time.

The Lvov opener is indeed the optimal way of leveraging the peculiarities of the present design and people will continue to do it. I would do it myself. Very few people will voluntarily choose to play with a stock AGS as Bob did in your last game. It is plainly much harder to do it this way. Not because of a Soviet runaway. But indeed precisely because SW Front can fight it out up front and really slow down AGS as you did.

[Balou]

I was hoping that something like a house rule is clearly defined. Well, to me it doesn't seem so. In addition, since workarounds can be labeled artifacts of a strong Lvov opener, this too doesn't sound comforting.

[invernomuto]

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
Well, you can hardly expect an Axis player to forgo the obvious advantage of trapping as many Soviet units as possible in some hope that the Soviets might not run away, and knowing that if they don't run away those forces will delay him badly. Doing the as large a Lvov pocket as possible will alwyas be an optimum Axis opening. If you want it to go away, it must be fixed in the game, by for example cutting 5 MP off the panzers of AGS.

AAR subscribed.

As for cutting 5 MP off the AGS Panzers, isn't it doable very easily with the editor?

Bye.