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Best Soviet fighter - 5/19/2012 2:49:01 PM   
Tarhunnas


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While the caption might be misunderstood, we are not talking about me here, we are talking about the best Soviet fighter aircraft.

In another thread about German fighter aircraft, I-153 was put forward as the best Soviet fighter going by kills. I checked the stats from our team game Za Rodinu in May 1942, and discovered that even at this time, the fourth highest scoring Soviet fighter regiment is indeed flying the I-153. And note that this regiment is considerably below other regiments with similar scores in both experience and morale! Thus it appears that the aircraft itself is making a difference. Might the I-153 be a little Soviet wonder-weapon in the air?




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RE: Best Soviet fighter - 5/19/2012 2:53:56 PM   
Tarhunnas


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And here are similar stats for turn 15 of my game with Bob. Two I-153 regiments in the top, and while they have respectable Exp and Mor, they are not in the very top of Exp and Mor.




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RE: Best Soviet fighter - 5/19/2012 3:17:09 PM   
Helpless


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Navy and OSNAZ air units have more experienced pilots.

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RE: Best Soviet fighter - 5/19/2012 4:03:57 PM   
Omat


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First 34:

16 - Mig 3
9 - Lagg 3
5 - Yak 1

1 - I-153
1 - P-40B
1 - Hurricane IIB
1 - Pe-3

Looks like the Mig-3 is the best fighter


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RE: Best Soviet fighter - 5/19/2012 6:48:21 PM   
M60A3TTS

 

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Will you post the air losses screenshot from the same turn for your Za Rodinu game? Also would be helpful to know how many AA battalions and regiments you have.

< Message edited by M60A3TTS -- 5/19/2012 7:17:29 PM >

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RE: Best Soviet fighter - 5/19/2012 7:52:29 PM   
Tarhunnas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Will you post the air losses screenshot from the same turn for your Za Rodinu game? Also would be helpful to know how many AA battalions and regiments you have.


Sure! I note that not only is I-153 in the forefront as to kills, it is also leading the losses league! A truly deadly aircraft!




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< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 5/19/2012 7:53:16 PM >

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RE: Best Soviet fighter - 5/19/2012 9:42:34 PM   
Tarhunnas


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And AA units. 69 in total, but several are attached to cities. I must admit I haven't found a way to de-attach them from cities. You doing a survey?

Edit: Interesting, some are attached to cities long lost, like Kiev. Wonder if they are hiding out somewhere and will reappear when we liberate the place...?




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< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 5/19/2012 9:44:59 PM >

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RE: Best Soviet fighter - 5/19/2012 10:17:03 PM   
Walloc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

And AA units. 69 in total, but several are attached to cities. I must admit I haven't found a way to de-attach them from cities.


Costs 50 AP a pop to detach so a bad deal. Leave em.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

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RE: Best Soviet fighter - 5/19/2012 11:32:33 PM   
randallw

 

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Any Soviet fighter should chew up an Axis bomber; i'm guessing that's where most of the kills are.


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RE: Best Soviet fighter - 5/20/2012 1:02:14 AM   
RCH


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quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

Any Soviet fighter should chew up an Axis bomber; i'm guessing that's where most of the kills are.



This is not necessarily true.

The I 153 was considered obsolete at the beginning of the war. It was a bi plane. Its speed was about the same as the He 111 and a little faster than the Ju 88. This means that the plane did not posses the speed needed to close in for the kill against some of the German bombers. It had a speed advantage of 50 km/hr against the Ju 87 and 80 km/hr against the Ju 88. The I 153 wasn't going to catch the He 111.

If the I 153 could face off against bombers head on then of course there was a chance. The I 153 would need to know altitude and direction of the targeted bombers. During the Battle of Britain radar was used. The Soviet capabilities in this area was in need of improvement.

The I 153 is, "It’s a tricky plane to fly because it’s not fuel injected. Which means if you do positive g’s in it you stall out the engine." What this means is if you are a bomber and if you have a I 153 behind you all you have too do is go into a dive. If the I 153 follows it would stall and fall out of the sky.

The Bf 109 was 200 km/hr faster than the I 153.

Any study of air war and air frames will give a good knowledge of the importance of speed, etc. Obsolete planes because of speed etc were cannon fodder.

The Soviets did develop some really good planes. The I 153 was not continued in production. It was an obsolete plane in 1941.

< Message edited by RCH -- 5/20/2012 2:25:08 AM >

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RE: Best Soviet fighter - 5/20/2012 4:06:18 PM   
M60A3TTS

 

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In game terms if you want to compare the I-153 to the MiG-3, Yak-1 and LaGG-3, first off the I-153 is most outclassed in average max speed by almost 100mph. It's cruise speed is somewhat less, but not much- 20mph. It also is weaker in terms of endurance and reliability that explains the higher losses to combat and operational losses. Where it comes out better in comparison is climb rate where it beats its siblings and is as maneuverable as the best of the "Big 3" which would be the Yak-1.

As far as the good number of kills by the aircraft shown in your game, I suspect it is primarily from unescorted Axis resupply or bombing missions where the fighters will lose little to nothing and the bombers or utility planes take a beating.

If you want to nitpick, in game terms at this time there is only one best fighter in the Soviet arsenal, and it's American. The P-40B is the only Soviet aircraft the game classifies as a fighter while these others are fighter bombers. That fighter-bomber label also includes the later P-40 versions, E/K/N as well as the British Hurricane aircraft. Likewise the Yak-7 A&B models as well as La-5. The first Soviet fighter doesn't appear until October 1942 which is the Yak-9.

While I like the P-40B, it is only produced from October-December 1941 for a total run of 210 aircraft. So it's pointless to equip a lot of air regiments with it as you will quickly run out of replacements. Maybe equip 6-7 regiments max and leave 1/3 of the aircraft in the pool as spares. The Hurricane IIb is a decent plane as well with over double the load capacity (1000 vs 443) of the Big 3 and remains in production through Oct41- Sep42.

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RE: Best Soviet fighter - 5/20/2012 4:48:16 PM   
RCH


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All bi planes are very maneuverable that is why they are still used in air shows today. A fighter doesn't need maneuverability to shoot down bombers they need rate of climb and speed. A fighter needs to be maneuverable in dog fights something the I 153 was very poor at compared to the modern German air force.

The best critic of this model comes from the Soviets themselves. At a time when they had very few fighters they chose to not make anymore of the I 153. The Soviets themselves said that it was better to have no I 153s than to make more. The Soviets said that it was better to employ the IL2 as a fighter than make anymore I 153s. The IL2 which really was a great aircraft was not a fighter and only had very limited success as a fighter primarily fighting bombers.

I have been looking for operational histories describing the I 153 in actual combat. I need some help here because I am finding very few. It seems the I 153 didn't do a lot of damage to the German Luftwaffe. I just cannot find good sources can someone help me out here?

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RE: Best Soviet fighter - 5/20/2012 7:39:53 PM   
Rasputitsa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCH
The I 153 is, "It’s a tricky plane to fly because it’s not fuel injected. Which means if you do positive g’s in it you stall out the engine." What this means is if you are a bomber and if you have a I 153 behind you all you have too do is go into a dive. If the I 153 follows it would stall and fall out of the sky.


The I 153 would not fall out of the sky, negative G would cause the engine to temporarily falter, as with the early Marks of Spitfire and Hurricane, a 'stall' (causing the aircraft to 'fall out of the sky') is when the wing ceases to provide lift, usually due to low speed, or high G turns, and is a completely different situation.

Apart from some civil prototypes, I doubt that the He111 was faster than the Ju88 and the Ju87 certainly was not.

Wiki :- Ju88

The fifth prototype set a 1,000 km (620 mi) closed-circuit record in March 1939, carrying a 2,000 kg (4,410 lb) payload at a speed of 517 km/h (320 mph). However, by the time Luftwaffe planners had had their own "pet" features added (including dive-bombing), the Ju 88's top speed had dropped to around 450 km/h (280 mph)

All speeds can only be compared for similar altitudes and bomb loads, but the Ju88 was fast enough to be adapted for use as a night fighter, later in the war.

Either way the I 153 would have difficulty in catching the He 111, or Ju 88, unless it had the tactical advantage of greater height, to dive into the attack, which would have its own dangers for the Soviet pilot.

Wiki again :-

Early production I-153s powered by the M25 engine passed State testing during 1939, despite the loss of one aircraft which disintegrated in a 500 km/h (311 mph) dive.

< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 5/21/2012 9:37:41 AM >


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RE: Best Soviet fighter - 5/21/2012 6:36:23 AM   
randallw

 

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It does sound odd to me that a diving aircraft might stall; my perception is that the plane might simply break apart.

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RE: Best Soviet fighter - 5/21/2012 2:35:51 PM   
RCH


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A stall at elevation is easy to recover from. The I 153 as an airframe also suffered from other stability issues. If it did chose to follow a bomber into a dive the I 153 would soon have to give up the chase or risk losing some or partial control of the airplane and eventually risk disaster. My point is that the I 153 was not shooting down a lot of bombers.

With an airframe so outdated, increased quality of pilots would have little positive effect. The P 40 was a good plane, but it was not a top of the line fighter and was quickly becoming outdated itself. The Flying Tigers made good use of the plane using better tactics and because they were really good pilots. If you outfit the Flying Tigers with I 153s then what they accomplished would not have been possible. The P 40 was a much better plane that the I 153.

The Soviets themselves got rid of the plane when they were in need of fighter aircraft.

I'm going to get IL2 1946 today and plan on doing some tests with the I 153.

< Message edited by RCH -- 5/21/2012 2:45:33 PM >

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RE: Best Soviet fighter - 5/21/2012 3:29:41 PM   
glvaca

 

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I153 is crap and in addition it's badly armed crap with only 2 machine guns.
That's why a lot of the pilots taran-ed (rammed) the bombers in the end, out of sheer frustration. I16 pilots often did the same, although the I16 is slighly better, but really not much. If you're talking about a difficult to fly plane, the I16 is what you're thinking of.
I don't agree that the I153 was not nice to fly. it turns really well and is virtually impossible to stall (as opposed to mono planes) as the bi-wing design creates a lot of lift.
Creating negative G and thus cutting your engine does not by itself creates a stall, it just cuts your engine which is annoying enough.
That doesn't mean you can't dive, you just have to wing over like you see spits and hurri's do in the movie battle of Britain. As to breaking up, nobody said a I153 pilots needs to dive down 90°. The art is to time your dive such that you do not exceed dive limits (ie exceed 500kmh) but still arrive close to your target to make the attack with sufficient speed.

If you're looking for stories on these planes try: "Barbarossa - The Air battle: July-December 1941 by Christer Bergström.

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RE: Best Soviet fighter - 5/21/2012 4:47:24 PM   
RCH


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Actually, thanks for the book recommendation. It looks like a worth while read.

When I was reading up on the I 153 I was also reading up on the I 16. That was a good catch. They did have some somewhat similar attributes, but were equally different planes.

The air model is too generous to the I 153.

In further study, I have become aware that most if not all Soviet planes' wings were made of wood pre 1942. A metal airframe could take more damage. That the I-153 and I-16 and other outdated models had open cock pits. The ceiling of the I-153 was 13k meters. How well did the pilot perform at that altitude in an open cockpit. There is more to modeling planes than just speed and pilot experience.

< Message edited by RCH -- 5/24/2012 8:12:27 PM >

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RE: Best Soviet fighter - 5/22/2012 9:27:42 PM   
glvaca

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCH

Actually, thanks for the book recommendation. It looks like a worth while read.

When I was reading up on the I 153 I was also reading up on the I 16. That was a good catch. They did have some somewhat similar attributes, but were equally different planes.

The air model is too generous to the I 153.


It's a very good book, it comes highly recommended. The only problem I have with the book, and the series, is that it often does not specify the variant of the planes flown (ie. FW190A4 or A6, etc...). Which is annoying if you need that level of detail.

Let's keep the flight models can of worms closed! If IL2 is to believed, the FM is quite forgiving. Thust me when I say, FM's have been discussed at extreme length (the Stalingrad discussion pails in comparison


< Message edited by glvaca -- 5/22/2012 9:28:05 PM >

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