Noob question re: executing carrier strikes

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Noob question re: executing carrier strikes

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Noob question re: executing carrier strikes - 5/17/2012 1:59:32 PM

richlove

Posts: 54
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: online

I'm in my first grand campaign as the allies; it's 12/31/41 right now. The 1st Japanese attack on Wake failed, but wave 2 just took the island. I got some advanced warning via SigInt, and have Lex, Sara, and Enterprise lurking and ready to strike:

I'm assuming that KB is out of the area. I haven't seen them since Pearl Harbor, but I've had 'heavy radio traffic' here and there that indicate that they're by the Philippines. I'm hoping the forum can help me w/ the mechanics of this strike:

1) I'm trying to get within 4 hexes before the strike, so that the Devastators can participate. According to the manual, there are two movement phases before the 1st air phase, so I think I'll end in the target hex (at the end of the first I'll be by the hexes along the range circle, by the 2nd movement phase I'll be in the destination hex. Is my understanding correct?
2) If my TFs move at a speed of 4, and their last move is only 3 hexes, will they spend their last move 1 hex back to their home port? If so, will 'remain on station' prevent that? I don't want the CVs to move to the target hex, then one hex away (and out of TBD range).
3) Does react range matter here? If the react range is less than the range to Wake, will the carriers not launch?
4) Airplane height: Dive Bombers from 11K to 14K? Any specific height for the torpedo planes? And is it better to stagger the height of the VF escort?
5) Anything else I've missed?

Note that I'm playing the game to learn the mechanics, and not to have an optimum, perfect strategy. I know that revealing my CVs to nab probably a light SAG + some xAKs is not worth it; I just want to make sure I know how to do it correctly when the time comes.

Post #: 1

RE: Noob question re: executing carrier strikes - 5/17/2012 2:13:25 PM

Cannonfodder

Posts: 1325
Joined: 10/22/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: richlove

1) I'm trying to get within 4 hexes before the strike, so that the Devastators can participate. According to the manual, there are two movement phases before the 1st air phase, so I think I'll end in the target hex (at the end of the first I'll be by the hexes along the range circle, by the 2nd movement phase I'll be in the destination hex. Is my understanding correct?
2) If my TFs move at a speed of 4, and their last move is only 3 hexes, will they spend their last move 1 hex back to their home port? If so, will 'remain on station' prevent that? I don't want the CVs to move to the target hex, then one hex away (and out of TBD range).
3) Does react range matter here? If the react range is less than the range to Wake, will the carriers not launch?
4) Airplane height: Dive Bombers from 11K to 14K? Any specific height for the torpedo planes? And is it better to stagger the height of the VF escort?
5) Anything else I've missed?

1) Yes, first movement phase is night, second is day. If your cruise speed is 4 hexes (minimum) you should be in the target hex
2) They will do that if you keep them on retirement allowed. Remain on station would prevent it but it limits the ability to react to enemy threats. You could assign the taskforces to patrol your target hex and set reaction to give your CVs (range determining if the task force will/can react to an enemy TF at 1 -6 hexes) a bit more flexibility . If you want good control just set remain on station.
3) React range doesn't matter for launching planes. It is just a permission for the TF commander to react to enemy Taskforces.
4) At the moment I use 5k for torpedo bombers, 9k for dive bombers and 10k for escorting fighters. Often I have a dedicated fighter group for CAP when I expect things to heat up. They would go up to about 15k (average height of incoming enemy fighters escorting raids).
5) Remember that the enemy TF might retreat after unloading remaining supplies. If you are sure there are no carriers nearby you might want to head further south on full speed (if you have the fuel) to make sure you catch them. EDIT remember that your weapon in 1941/1942 is divebombers. The devestator range is terrible, and the torpedoes are likely to dud (50%). You might want to put your CV at a bigger range to enable the Dauntless to strike and keep the Devestators home.

< Message edited by Cannonfodder -- 5/17/2012 2:23:14 PM >

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Post #: 2

RE: Noob question re: executing carrier strikes - 5/17/2012 4:15:33 PM

Nikademus

Posts: 25218
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: richlove
1) I'm trying to get within 4 hexes before the strike, so that the Devastators can participate. According to the manual, there are two movement phases before the 1st air phase, so I think I'll end in the target hex (at the end of the first I'll be by the hexes along the range circle, by the 2nd movement phase I'll be in the destination hex. Is my understanding correct?
2) If my TFs move at a speed of 4, and their last move is only 3 hexes, will they spend their last move 1 hex back to their home port? If so, will 'remain on station' prevent that? I don't want the CVs to move to the target hex, then one hex away (and out of TBD range).
3) Does react range matter here? If the react range is less than the range to Wake, will the carriers not launch?
4) Airplane height: Dive Bombers from 11K to 14K? Any specific height for the torpedo planes? And is it better to stagger the height of the VF escort?
5) Anything else I've missed?

Note that I'm playing the game to learn the mechanics, and not to have an optimum, perfect strategy. I know that revealing my CVs to nab probably a light SAG + some xAKs is not worth it; I just want to make sure I know how to do it correctly when the time comes.

1) a tactic many players often use is the "Full Speed" tactic. This roughly simulates the ability and tendancy of a carrier strike group to 'dash' in towards a target base at high speed....launch a strike then bug out to avoid retaliation. The advantage of this is it often will allow you to get in and avoid or minimize a counter-attack by air.....and gives you a better chance of suprising the enemy. Con side is, especially if using Retirement Allowed, if the strike is called off by the time your back to the orders phase your TF or TF's have moved great distances and burned alot of fuel for nothing. You can avoid this by using Do Not Retire but the result of this is your TF or TF's will stop at the launch point and sit there. Very risky if using multi-day turns.

2) Yep. Do Not Retire locks a TF in place. Its somewhat God like and makes the TF act more as if your in a tactical wargame. Your minions obey without question, even if it means getting pummeled.

3) React Range concerns enemy TF's only....not a base. When attacking a static target the range of the aircraft is primary and determines ordinance load as well.

4) Opinions differ. Keep the DB's around 10k to ensure they "dive bomb" vs. level bomb or glide bomb. I prefer to keep planes all at the same height. minimizes the strike getting broken up.

5) Yes....there's an enemy carrier TF lurking NW of your position. Your search plane missed it.

(in reply to richlove)

Post #: 3

RE: Noob question re: executing carrier strikes - 5/17/2012 5:25:41 PM

dr.hal

Posts: 1358
Joined: 6/3/2006
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If you're interested in a "coordinated strike" then you need to keep ALL attack aircraft AND escorts at the same altitude, as such a move improves the chances of coordination (but in no way is a guarantee). Don't worry about the torpedo bombers, they drop down to 200 ft to launch no matter what altitude. You are NOT doing them a favor by keeping them low. And don't worry about the escort, they will fly 2000 ft ABOVE the set altitude in the normal high rear position as per the tactics of the day. If your dive bombers are not set between 10 and 15K then they don't dive bomb as indicated above by Nikademus. In attacks I usually set the altitude to 13K so that the fighters fly at 15K, for many that is their best altitude for a dogfight (although against a zero early on the best altitude is usually one that is the best path to home base!). Hal

(in reply to Nikademus)

Post #: 4

RE: Noob question re: executing carrier strikes - 5/17/2012 5:37:08 PM

Cannonfodder

Posts: 1325
Joined: 10/22/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

If you're interested in a "coordinated strike" then you need to keep ALL attack aircraft AND escorts at the same altitude, as such a move improves the chances of coordination (but in no way is a guarantee). Don't worry about the torpedo bombers, they drop down to 200 ft to launch no matter what altitude. You are NOT doing them a favor by keeping them low. And don't worry about the escort, they will fly 2000 ft ABOVE the set altitude in the normal high rear position as per the tactics of the day. If your dive bombers are not set between 10 and 15K then they don't dive bomb as indicated above by Nikademus. In attacks I usually set the altitude to 13K so that the fighters fly at 15K, for many that is their best altitude for a dogfight (although against a zero early on the best altitude is usually one that is the best path to home base!). Hal

This is true in a lot of cases but I haven't noticed a difference in carrier strike groups.. Setting them at different altitudes has minimum effect if any on coordinating strikes...

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Post #: 5

RE: Noob question re: executing carrier strikes - 5/17/2012 5:45:20 PM

Nikademus

Posts: 25218
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From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline

Also, and take the following advice with a grain of salt:

it can also be helpful to just stack your USN carriers all in one TF. The coordination penalty, in truth, doesn't work very well and its not hard to have a nice coord'd strike of 60-160 bombers go in. The trick is in the CAP. I've found most often that setting the CAP to above 30% tends to result in very low escort escort numbers for very big strikes. For example.....6 F4F's escorting 70 SBD's and 12 TBD's. If there's a good enemy CAP up.....your going to get knocked around hard.

An old favorite PBEM opponent of mine...."Brady" used to give me coniption fits when he'd play the Allied side and my TF's would get pummeled by huge coord'd strikes. I actually ended up asking him "What's your secret??!!" He just blandly told me he has never done anything more than stack all his big Allied CV's together. Maybe there's more to it. A magician after all never reveals all of his or her secrets....but i've managed to do it myself a few times.

The advantage of course is better AA. If your playing DaBabes.....oh man will you get AA.

Still.....i tend to try to play along historical lines so i'll often form 1 or 2 CV TF's when i'm Allied. Stacking the TF's together of course gives you mutual CAP which is a bit unrealistic early on in the game but thats how the game mechanics have always worked.

(in reply to Cannonfodder)

Post #: 6

RE: Noob question re: executing carrier strikes - 5/17/2012 8:41:09 PM

geofflambert

Posts: 2077
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: online

If I have enough destroyers to cover each one, I put them in separate TFs but with one leading (or use a surface combat TF or an ASW TF as the leader) and have the others follow (same hex).� I find repeatedly that the enemy strike is likely to attack only one or two TFs thus allowing you to come out of a bloody battle with some intact carriers.� I wouldn't use an ASW TF to lead if you're in a hurry though.

edit: If one of TFs is sending up a lot of smoke from fires, following strikes will often attack that TF thus giving your other carriers another break.

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 5/17/2012 8:44:10 PM >

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Post #: 7

RE: Noob question re: executing carrier strikes - 5/17/2012 8:46:49 PM

Erkki

Posts: 1125
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An ASW TF with 4DDs might make the best leading TF - ASWTFs are the least likely to react anywhere(and TFs DO react if you have retirement allowed, even if reaction range is 0...).

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Post #: 8

RE: Noob question re: executing carrier strikes - 5/18/2012 4:28:21 AM

geofflambert

Posts: 2077
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: online

I'm listening Erkki, I'm gonna do that next time.

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Post #: 9

RE: Noob question re: executing carrier strikes - 5/19/2012 8:34:59 AM

inqistor

Posts: 1210
Joined: 5/12/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: richlove

1) I'm trying to get within 4 hexes before the strike, so that the Devastators can participate. According to the manual, there are two movement phases before the 1st air phase, so I think I'll end in the target hex (at the end of the first I'll be by the hexes along the range circle, by the 2nd movement phase I'll be in the destination hex. Is my understanding correct?
2) If my TFs move at a speed of 4, and their last move is only 3 hexes, will they spend their last move 1 hex back to their home port? If so, will 'remain on station' prevent that? I don't want the CVs to move to the target hex, then one hex away (and out of TBD range).

Plane operations tend to use ships operation points, so you can actually end short few hexes, of what you expected. It would be better if you just go stright SW.

quote:

4) Airplane height: Dive Bombers from 11K to 14K? Any specific height for the torpedo planes? And is it better to stagger the height of the VF escort?

You have two options:
a) go lowest possible (6000 if you do not trained LowN), and carry bombs (best option, since your torpedoes do not work 50% of the time)
b) go above enemy AA range

quote:

5) Anything else I've missed?

Weather can ruin your plans. If you are sure, there are no enemy Carrier support, split your carriers, and put every on different hex. That way you are sure, at least some of them will attack.

quote:

Note that I'm playing the game to learn the mechanics, and not to have an optimum, perfect strategy. I know that revealing my CVs to nab probably a light SAG + some xAKs is not worth it; I just want to make sure I know how to do it correctly when the time comes.

Why? That is exactly what you should do. Free exp for everyone, and lots of enemy ships sunk.

(in reply to richlove)

Post #: 10

RE: Noob question re: executing carrier strikes - 5/21/2012 4:30:29 PM

dr.hal

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Cannonfodder, I was under the impression that coordination was equally a factor with that of a land strike. Having just read Shattered Sword, it is amazing that the Americans got anything, as their strike was totally uncoordinated (but as the book points out, in the long run, this was an advantage, as long as you were not in a torpedo squadron). What I do with my CV TFs, one CV per force with the slowest designated the leader and ALL others "follow" that TF at zero hex range and all others have zero reaction, thus they follow the leader. Doing this I had five CV TFs all in the same hex hitting the Japanese all together. Sank 7-8 Jap carriers (CVL and CVE as well as CV) with the loss of only one of mine. It ended the game (by mutual agreement). So keeping to history and still getting the big strike is possible. Hal

(in reply to Cannonfodder)

Post #: 11

RE: Noob question re: executing carrier strikes - 5/21/2012 7:55:27 PM

geofflambert

Posts: 2077
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: online

Question: If you set your fighters to escort and you reserve a percentage of the for CAP, do the fighters escorting and the fighters CAPing do so at the set altitude for the squadron, and could this be a reason to set some squadrons to escort only and some squadrons to what? sweep? for CAP purposes?

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Post #: 12

RE: Noob question re: executing carrier strikes - 5/21/2012 11:00:12 PM

jmalter

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Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline

gorn, strike escorts fly at 2k' above the strike aircraft they get assigned to, regardless of the alt you assign to the sqn. but the max. range setting will affect your strike escorts - if the fighters are set to 4 hexes, your bombers will be feeling lonely when flying out to 5 or more.

IMO strike coordination is improved when DB & TB sqns are all set to the same alt (11-15k' to ensure a DB dive attack). the TBs attack at 200', regardless of their alt setting. when you set the attackers to different heights, you pert' much ensure that they'll arrive separately. enemy CAP & Flak will attack them separately, & you have to depend on the game-engine to split up your strike escorts between them.

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Post #: 13

RE: Noob question re: executing carrier strikes - 5/22/2012 2:13:42 AM

richlove

Posts: 54
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: online

Thanks for the help, everyone! My CVs moved to 4 hexes off of Wake, just as anticipated:

All those hits were 1000lb bombs, so I'm expecting everything hit to go down. I detached two CAs + 4DDs from the CV groups to sweep in at night to clean up. Wake has 12K troops on it now, and if I sink their remaining transports (if any), they'll get a double whammy from the stacking limit. I was surprised to see torpedo hits, too.

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Post #: 14

RE: Noob question re: executing carrier strikes - 5/22/2012 4:09:12 AM

jmalter

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well done, richlove.

keep an eye on your SurfTF, though. it's nice to run in & cut the throats of the wounded, but you're gonna attract some Betty action if you hang around down there. if you set a high reaction range, have search floatplanes patrolling, & a high-aggression TF commander - your CAs are gonna try to chow down on the cripples, and might get sucked further into dangerous waters. be careful out there!

your torp hits aren't so surprising - you've got some decently skilled pilots, & IIRC the air-dropped torp has only a 50% dud rate. while watching a combat replay, the msg 'fuel cargo burning' is a good sign that the target is seriously munged. (also a lesson to you, when loading out an amph or transport TF - that 'do not load fuel' button is there for a reason.)

< Message edited by jmalter -- 5/22/2012 4:19:19 AM >

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Post #: 15

RE: Noob question re: executing carrier strikes - 5/22/2012 4:48:08 AM

geofflambert

Posts: 2077
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

gorn, strike escorts fly at 2k' above the strike aircraft they get assigned to, regardless of the alt you assign to the sqn. but the max. range setting will affect your strike escorts - if the fighters are set to 4 hexes, your bombers will be feeling lonely when flying out to 5 or more.

IMO strike coordination is improved when DB & TB sqns are all set to the same alt (11-15k' to ensure a DB dive attack). the TBs attack at 200', regardless of their alt setting. when you set the attackers to different heights, you pert' much ensure that they'll arrive separately. enemy CAP & Flak will attack them separately, & you have to depend on the game-engine to split up your strike escorts between them.

This range setting, is that determined by whether I'm using drop tanks, or am I missing something (by far the most likely explanation)?

(in reply to jmalter)

Post #: 16

RE: Noob question re: executing carrier strikes - 5/22/2012 5:40:16 AM

jmalter

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Joined: 10/12/2010
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gorn,

if a sqn can use droptanks, its normal/max range limits will increase if you click on the droptanks option to turn them ON.

at a landbase, droptank availability depends on the amount of supply at the base. for an AirCombat or CVEEscort TF, droptank availability depends on the TF's available mission %age. using droptanks incurs a penalty - sqns using droptanks consume available supply (or CV MS%) at double the normal rate.

i'm not really clear on what you're asking about. but i'll assume you're wanting to give CV-based fighters the capability to escort your CV-based divebombers. your DBs will prob'ly have better normal range than your normal-range Fs. so it makes sense to give your Fs droptanks, so they can cover your DBs. but if you also give droptanks to your DBs, they will again out-range any available F Escort.

note that as you switch a sqn between droptanks on/off, its assigned max range will change. don't exit the sqn's screen until you've set its range to your preferred value. if a CV sqn's droptank option is 'greyed-out', that's a good sign that it's time to retire your CV TF for re-supply. likewise, if a land-based sqn can't use its droptanks, it's past time to ship more supply to that base.

(in reply to geofflambert)

Post #: 17