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RE: OT: Radios

 
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RE: OT: Radios - 5/17/2012 1:55:09 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zzodr

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl


Well, but does it have to? If a solar sail generated some small amount of thrust constantly out to the heliopause, wouldn't the spaceship-beastie be moving pretty fast?


Fast in race car terms, yes, very. Fast as in travelling to another star system? No.
Voyager 1 is now entering this area where the solar energy from our Sun is negligible.

In 100 days a sail could reach 16,000 kilometers per hour (10,000 miles per hour); in one year it could reach 58,000 kilometers per hour (36,000 miles per hour). In just three years, a solar sail could reach a speed of over 160,000 kilometers per hour (100,000 miles per hour). At that speed you could reach Pluto in less than five years. In comparison, the New Horizons misson to Pluto, using chemical propulsion and a gravity-assist from Jupiter, is planned to take nine years to reach its target.

Still, 160,000 kilometers per hour (100,000 miles per hour) is still only 0.00015 the speed of light. It would take about 1,000 years for a solar sail to reach one-tenth the speed of light, even with light shining on it continuously. This emphasizes just how hard interstellar flight is.

http://www.discoversolarenergy.com/solar/sails.htm


I assume you presume the craft begins at rest? That need not be the case. Disposable strap-on engines would work well to boost it to the speeds you end up at, with the sails continuing the acceleration from there.

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Post #: 61
RE: OT: Radios - 5/17/2012 4:19:29 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
I assume you presume the craft begins at rest? That need not be the case. Disposable strap-on engines would work well to boost it to the speeds you end up at, with the sails continuing the acceleration from there.

The mass penalties for the fuel are insane, self limiting actually. Assuming even a 1g boost, for any appreciable time sufficient to move zzodr's decimal point even one place to the right, the fuel mass would be rather large. Conservation of momentum. That's why many sci-fi writers assume a Bussard configuration.

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Post #: 62
RE: OT: Radios - 5/17/2012 4:38:52 PM   
LoBaron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
I assume you presume the craft begins at rest? That need not be the case. Disposable strap-on engines would work well to boost it to the speeds you end up at, with the sails continuing the acceleration from there.

The mass penalties for the fuel are insane, self limiting actually. Assuming even a 1g boost, for any appreciable time sufficient to move zzodr's decimal point even one place to the right, the fuel mass would be rather large. Conservation of momentum. That's why many sci-fi writers assume a Bussard configuration.


I always wondered if far in the future a long range continuousely operating engine comparable to scramjets would be able to tap free hydrogen or energies of the vacuum.
Stanislav Lem described such an propulsion method in Fiasko. Is that similar to a Bussard configuration? I think Bussard is a fusion reactor type?


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Post #: 63
RE: OT: Radios - 5/17/2012 5:10:19 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
I always wondered if far in the future a long range continuousely operating engine comparable to scramjets would be able to tap free hydrogen or energies of the vacuum.
Stanislav Lem described such an propulsion method in Fiasko. Is that similar to a Bussard configuration? I think Bussard is a fusion reactor type?

Well ... technically Bussard described a system; sweeping up free hydrogen for compression into a fuel source, which compels a mass reaction converter, the most efficient of which is a fusor (to date).

What the sci-fi people (and others) have done is to promote Bussard to a 'concept'; accessing any energy source, outside the containment environment, as a fuel source. You still need some kind of converter to make them march. Our present physics requires mass reaction, so a fusor is still looking good. No matter the fuel source, mass or energy, it still needs to be converted into a form that is practically useful (given our present physics).

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Post #: 64
RE: OT: Radios - 5/17/2012 6:00:18 PM   
JWE

 

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The wierd thing is trying to explain physics in words. It's so much easier in math, but then most people haven't learned to speak that language, so Woof !!

It's like trying to explain to an orchestra how to play a Beethoven symphony, when nobody knows how to read music. One can use words, but oh my, the horror , the misunderstandings, and the decades. Just a simple example, and it's on-topic, too (imagine that).

One space ship (traveling E at speed .9c) sends a radio signal to andother space ship (traveling SW at speed .9c). Propagation time of the signal is d'/c. Doppler will have an effect with respect to the receiving ship in so far as her v stretches out (or shortens) the wavelength of the signal. The receiver will get the signal at t'=d'/c but it must be processed to account for v.

Everything that happens, every single little thing the happens, is evaluated on the basis of 2 inertial reference frames - Mr .9c E and Mr .9c SW. An observer who is not aboard either one of the ships can evaluate these things for himself (we have), but the observer must, simply must, be in an inertial reference frame of his own (our's were) that is relative to the two ships. That's why it's called relativity.

There is no such thing as an observer sitting outside the system with stopwatches and such. Being outside the system means solutions are utterly irrelevant. That's one of the many reasons that I and many of my colleagues believe.

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Post #: 65
RE: OT: Radios - 5/17/2012 7:59:43 PM   
Kwik E Mart


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

The wierd thing is trying to explain physics in words. It's so much easier in math, but then most people haven't learned to speak that language, so Woof !!

It's like trying to explain to an orchestra how to play a Beethoven symphony, when nobody knows how to read music. One can use words, but oh my, the horror , the misunderstandings, and the decades. Just a simple example, and it's on-topic, too (imagine that).

One space ship (traveling E at speed .9c) sends a radio signal to andother space ship (traveling SW at speed .9c). Propagation time of the signal is d'/c. Doppler will have an effect with respect to the receiving ship in so far as her v stretches out (or shortens) the wavelength of the signal. The receiver will get the signal at t'=d'/c but it must be processed to account for v.

Everything that happens, every single little thing the happens, is evaluated on the basis of 2 inertial reference frames - Mr .9c E and Mr .9c SW. An observer who is not aboard either one of the ships can evaluate these things for himself (we have), but the observer must, simply must, be in an inertial reference frame of his own (our's were) that is relative to the two ships. That's why it's called relativity.

There is no such thing as an observer sitting outside the system with stopwatches and such. Being outside the system means solutions are utterly irrelevant. That's one of the many reasons that I and many of my colleagues believe.


...OMG! it's so much easier to understand once you used math!

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Post #: 66
RE: OT: Radios - 5/17/2012 8:01:05 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
I assume you presume the craft begins at rest? That need not be the case. Disposable strap-on engines would work well to boost it to the speeds you end up at, with the sails continuing the acceleration from there.

The mass penalties for the fuel are insane, self limiting actually. Assuming even a 1g boost, for any appreciable time sufficient to move zzodr's decimal point even one place to the right, the fuel mass would be rather large. Conservation of momentum. That's why many sci-fi writers assume a Bussard configuration.


Sci-fi writers usualy assume that the fuel comes from solar system assets and is not lifted from Earth (unless there's a space elevator ) But his figures state 100 days to reach 10,000 miles per hour. I was not assuming a 1g boost either. In the case of Niven, many of his vehicles are unmanned cargo ships sent to systems already colonized by very large slow-boat sleeper ships which carried their own fuel and were very, very inefficient.

My understanding is that Bussards don't work inside systems very well (too much crud swept up with the hydrogen), but are a great idea in interstellar space.

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Post #: 67
RE: OT: Radios - 5/17/2012 8:10:53 PM   
Nikademus


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John, your making my head hurt.

No wonder Roddenberry went for Warp Drive. Easier to technospeak it.


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Post #: 68
RE: OT: Radios - 5/17/2012 8:48:35 PM   
danlongman

 

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Speaking of Rodenberry (or Fontana in this case).......
I am beginning to think relativity theory is a game of "Fizbin" played on us and each other by physicists.
It seems to require some kind of arcane mathematix combined with interpretive dance to comprehend.
Nobody wants to call BS and say they do not understand because that would mean admitting ignorance.
I suspect they just makes it up as they goes along......
cheers

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Post #: 69
RE: OT: Radios - 5/17/2012 9:18:00 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
John, your making my head hurt.

No wonder Roddenberry went for Warp Drive. Easier to technospeak it.

You think so? Just take a peek at Miguel Alcubierre's metric tensor; and the idea of Constant Velocity Bubbles from Brendan McMonigal, Geraint lewis, and Philip O'Byrne; or The Matter of Matter, E. Birkhauser, J. Crayne, and J. Eldredge; and "Mass Denisty Profiles of Stuff", Block/Bosma.

Woof !! It's a wonder Roddenberry's head didn't explode.

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Post #: 70
RE: OT: Radios - 5/17/2012 9:28:56 PM   
Kwik E Mart


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
John, your making my head hurt.

No wonder Roddenberry went for Warp Drive. Easier to technospeak it.

You think so? Just take a peek at Miguel Alcubierre's metric tensor; and the idea of Constant Velocity Bubbles from Brendan McMonigal, Geraint lewis, and Philip O'Byrne; or The Matter of Matter, E. Birkhauser, J. Crayne, and J. Eldredge; and "Mass Denisty Profiles of Stuff", Block/Bosma.

Woof !! It's a wonder Roddenberry's head didn't explode.


string theory always makes my head hurt...and i majored in physics!

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Post #: 71
RE: OT: Radios - 5/17/2012 9:50:17 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart
string theory always makes my head hurt...and i majored in physics!


My total physics training consists of a HS course in 1975. Have they come up with anything new since then?

OTOH it was taught by an ex-Phantom squadron commander. So I have THAT going for me.

(My chemistry teacher had been a diesel boat CO. Degrees from USNA, RPI (MS in EE I think), and a Ph.D. in oceanography. He just liked going to school. Not many public HS teachers with those kind of creds.)

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Post #: 72
RE: OT: Radios - 5/17/2012 10:14:41 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart
string theory always makes my head hurt...and i majored in physics!

Mine too ... and so did I.

If you really care, I take the Philosophy of Science courses at USC/Arizona every couple years or so. Now I am in Alabama, I'm signed up at UA Huntsville.

These are not your caring and sharing, Govt sponsored, girlie, useless, filosofy courses. These are real courses, taught by real people, who speak math. If you think about it, you can see that the windows and limitations of our understanding are defined by our philosophy. Take a good PoS course and many things will become clear.

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Post #: 73
RE: OT: Radios - 5/17/2012 11:00:40 PM   
USS America


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart
string theory always makes my head hurt...and i majored in physics!

Mine too ... and so did I.

If you really care, I take the Philosophy of Science courses at USC/Arizona every couple years or so. Now I am in Alabama, I'm signed up at UA Huntsville.

These are not your caring and sharing, Govt sponsored, girlie, useless, filosofy courses. These are real courses, taught by real people, who speak math. If you think about it, you can see that the windows and limitations of our understanding are defined by our philosophy. Take a good PoS course and many things will become clear.


That sounds rather twisted, John, and rather fun! I might have to look for one of those classes when there is once again free time in my life.

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Post #: 74
RE: OT: Radios - 5/17/2012 11:43:56 PM   
Kwik E Mart


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quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart
string theory always makes my head hurt...and i majored in physics!

Mine too ... and so did I.

If you really care, I take the Philosophy of Science courses at USC/Arizona every couple years or so. Now I am in Alabama, I'm signed up at UA Huntsville.

These are not your caring and sharing, Govt sponsored, girlie, useless, filosofy courses. These are real courses, taught by real people, who speak math. If you think about it, you can see that the windows and limitations of our understanding are defined by our philosophy. Take a good PoS course and many things will become clear.


That sounds rather twisted, John, and rather fun! I might have to look for one of those classes when there is once again free time in my life.


definitely will look into that...i enjoyed "The Dancing Wu Li Masters" and "Chaos: The Making of a New Science"...alas, my love affair with physics and science in general has taken a back seat to life...

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Post #: 75
RE: OT: Radios - 5/17/2012 11:45:44 PM   
Kwik E Mart


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quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart
string theory always makes my head hurt...and i majored in physics!

Mine too ... and so did I.

If you really care, I take the Philosophy of Science courses at USC/Arizona every couple years or so. Now I am in Alabama, I'm signed up at UA Huntsville.

These are not your caring and sharing, Govt sponsored, girlie, useless, filosofy courses. These are real courses, taught by real people, who speak math. If you think about it, you can see that the windows and limitations of our understanding are defined by our philosophy. Take a good PoS course and many things will become clear.


That sounds rather twisted, John, and rather fun! I might have to look for one of those classes when there is once again free time in my life.


...and just to point out the obvious, (or not so obvious) the response to the comments on string theory was that it was "twisted"

< Message edited by Kwik E Mart -- 5/18/2012 1:12:39 AM >


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Post #: 76
RE: OT: Radios - 5/18/2012 7:49:14 AM   
Ddog

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

If you were traveling at the speed of light, time would essentially stop and you would hear nothing. Another way to look at it would be the radio waves would be traveling exactly the same speed you were.

If you were traveling a little less than the speed of light, you would pick up radio, but it would be stuff broadcast after you left (you would be going slower than the radio waves), but it would be dramatically downshifted in frequency to a point where you would probably need a computer to speed it back up again, and collecting an hour's worth of programming would take a few years.

If you were able to exceed the speed of light, with some kind of drive only known to science fiction today, you would outrun the radio and most likely hear nothing while you were traveling, but when you stopped, you would be able to pick up broadcasts from many years ago, depending on how far away you were. The radio waves would also be very diffuse, the strength of the signal declines at the cube of the distance (the signal is radiating out from Earth in a sphere), so you would need a super sophisticated receiver to be able to pick up anything. Radio noise put out by our sun would probably drown out much of the signal after some distance. You might be able to pick up a bit of a radio hot spot where Earth was when the broadcasts you are picking up were sent, but all you would be able to do is pick up that something was transmitted.

SETI tries to pick up coherent radio patterns in signals from other stars. So far they haven't found anything definitive. They do have some pretty sophisticated receiver arrays (and would like to build even more sophisticated arrays). I doubt you'd be able to pick up anything coherent with commercially available equipment even if planets around nearby stars were broadcasting.

And always remember 285,000 miles per second, it's not only a good idea, it's the law.

Bill





Bill,

I think you may be wrong about the speed of light, but not the radio lol A friend I grew up with (the guy who actually got me playing wargames such as Tobruk, Squad Leader, Luftwaffe, etc.) teaches at the University of Minn. Deluth. He has been working on a project involving neutrinos for about 20 years. If you seen the movie 2012, nuetrinos destroy the earth lol but at least the movie got the reciever deep in the ground in India correct. There are 2 recievers that my freind worked at, one buried deep in the Alps in Italy, and the other deep in some mountain in Japan. Anyway, these neutrinos pass thru the earth and never slow down, so the mountains act as a filter. I was in the Marines, so I won't pretend to know a whole lot about Astrophysics. But last year they fired nuetrinos from from some sort of generator to a receiver and they traveled faster than light. Then there was speculation about if Einstien was correct they would of had to of received the neutrinos before they were fired.

I'll include an article, and you can do your own research if you are interested.....it hurts my brain

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/30/opinion/30iht-eddas30.html



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Post #: 77
RE: OT: Radios - 5/18/2012 8:05:29 AM   
koniu

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ddog


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

If you were traveling at the speed of light, time would essentially stop and you would hear nothing. Another way to look at it would be the radio waves would be traveling exactly the same speed you were.

If you were traveling a little less than the speed of light, you would pick up radio, but it would be stuff broadcast after you left (you would be going slower than the radio waves), but it would be dramatically downshifted in frequency to a point where you would probably need a computer to speed it back up again, and collecting an hour's worth of programming would take a few years.

If you were able to exceed the speed of light, with some kind of drive only known to science fiction today, you would outrun the radio and most likely hear nothing while you were traveling, but when you stopped, you would be able to pick up broadcasts from many years ago, depending on how far away you were. The radio waves would also be very diffuse, the strength of the signal declines at the cube of the distance (the signal is radiating out from Earth in a sphere), so you would need a super sophisticated receiver to be able to pick up anything. Radio noise put out by our sun would probably drown out much of the signal after some distance. You might be able to pick up a bit of a radio hot spot where Earth was when the broadcasts you are picking up were sent, but all you would be able to do is pick up that something was transmitted.

SETI tries to pick up coherent radio patterns in signals from other stars. So far they haven't found anything definitive. They do have some pretty sophisticated receiver arrays (and would like to build even more sophisticated arrays). I doubt you'd be able to pick up anything coherent with commercially available equipment even if planets around nearby stars were broadcasting.

And always remember 285,000 miles per second, it's not only a good idea, it's the law.

Bill





Bill,

I think you may be wrong about the speed of light, but not the radio lol A friend I grew up with (the guy who actually got me playing wargames such as Tobruk, Squad Leader, Luftwaffe, etc.) teaches at the University of Minn. Deluth. He has been working on a project involving neutrinos for about 20 years. If you seen the movie 2012, nuetrinos destroy the earth lol but at least the movie got the reciever deep in the ground in India correct. There are 2 recievers that my freind worked at, one buried deep in the Alps in Italy, and the other deep in some mountain in Japan. Anyway, these neutrinos pass thru the earth and never slow down, so the mountains act as a filter. I was in the Marines, so I won't pretend to know a whole lot about Astrophysics. But last year they fired nuetrinos from from some sort of generator to a receiver and they traveled faster than light. Then there was speculation about if Einstien was correct they would of had to of received the neutrinos before they were fired.

I'll include an article, and you can do your own research if you are interested.....it hurts my brain

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/30/opinion/30iht-eddas30.html


I must find source of that but i hear in TV that after they check everything again they found some kind on technical multifunction and neutrinos where traveling with speed of light. It was lose cable or something like that.:)

EDIT. It was lose cable between computer and GPS module used to measure travel time of neutrinos between point A and B.
They suspecting also that synchronization between computers where corrupted



< Message edited by koniu -- 5/18/2012 8:16:23 AM >


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Post #: 78
RE: OT: Radios - 5/18/2012 8:17:45 AM   
wdolson

 

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CERN did find some results that may have been an indication of a particle traveling faster than light, but the results are still being interpreted. It's been the buzz in the world of Physics lately.

Bill

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Post #: 79
RE: OT: Radios - 5/18/2012 8:34:10 AM   
Ddog

 

Posts: 206
Joined: 2/17/2005
From: Cincinnati, OH
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ddog


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

If you were traveling at the speed of light, time would essentially stop and you would hear nothing. Another way to look at it would be the radio waves would be traveling exactly the same speed you were.

If you were traveling a little less than the speed of light, you would pick up radio, but it would be stuff broadcast after you left (you would be going slower than the radio waves), but it would be dramatically downshifted in frequency to a point where you would probably need a computer to speed it back up again, and collecting an hour's worth of programming would take a few years.

If you were able to exceed the speed of light, with some kind of drive only known to science fiction today, you would outrun the radio and most likely hear nothing while you were traveling, but when you stopped, you would be able to pick up broadcasts from many years ago, depending on how far away you were. The radio waves would also be very diffuse, the strength of the signal declines at the cube of the distance (the signal is radiating out from Earth in a sphere), so you would need a super sophisticated receiver to be able to pick up anything. Radio noise put out by our sun would probably drown out much of the signal after some distance. You might be able to pick up a bit of a radio hot spot where Earth was when the broadcasts you are picking up were sent, but all you would be able to do is pick up that something was transmitted.

SETI tries to pick up coherent radio patterns in signals from other stars. So far they haven't found anything definitive. They do have some pretty sophisticated receiver arrays (and would like to build even more sophisticated arrays). I doubt you'd be able to pick up anything coherent with commercially available equipment even if planets around nearby stars were broadcasting.

And always remember 285,000 miles per second, it's not only a good idea, it's the law.

Bill





Bill,

I think you may be wrong about the speed of light, but not the radio lol A friend I grew up with (the guy who actually got me playing wargames such as Tobruk, Squad Leader, Luftwaffe, etc.) teaches at the University of Minn. Deluth. He has been working on a project involving neutrinos for about 20 years. If you seen the movie 2012, nuetrinos destroy the earth lol but at least the movie got the reciever deep in the ground in India correct. There are 2 recievers that my freind worked at, one buried deep in the Alps in Italy, and the other deep in some mountain in Japan. Anyway, these neutrinos pass thru the earth and never slow down, so the mountains act as a filter. I was in the Marines, so I won't pretend to know a whole lot about Astrophysics. But last year they fired nuetrinos from from some sort of generator to a receiver and they traveled faster than light. Then there was speculation about if Einstien was correct they would of had to of received the neutrinos before they were fired.

I'll include an article, and you can do your own research if you are interested.....it hurts my brain

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/30/opinion/30iht-eddas30.html


I must find source of that but i hear in TV that after they check everything again they found some kind on technical multifunction and neutrinos where traveling with speed of light. It was lose cable or something like that.:)

EDIT. It was lose cable between computer and GPS module used to measure travel time of neutrinos between point A and B.
They suspecting also that synchronization between computers where corrupted





It's been awhile since I talked to him, so I'll put out an email and see if I can get any scuttlebutt on the issue. :)

Cheers

_____________________________

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Tail gunner, Enola Gay


(in reply to koniu)
Post #: 80
RE: OT: Radios - 5/18/2012 1:45:54 PM   
zzodr


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Just to make your head explode more - or make things easier to understand, here is a relativity calculator:
http://www.1728.org/reltivty.htm

I also learnt if you were travelling at light speed around the world at the equator - you would circumnavigate the globe 7.5 times in one second.


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Post #: 81
RE: OT: Radios - 5/18/2012 5:45:32 PM   
Beezle


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As I understand it the original experiment, where they thought some neutrinos were exceeding c was in error because they didn't synchronize the clocks at the origin and source ("The clock at the starting line determining when the neutrino started wasn't synchronized to the clock at the finish line deterniming when it arrived")



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RE: OT: Radios - 5/18/2012 5:58:55 PM   
Knavey

 

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Ummm...even with all the deep thought going on in this thread, it is still easier to figure out astrophysics and neutrinos than it is to understand the air and ground combat routines of WitP - AE. Obviously BORKED.

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RE: OT: Radios - 5/18/2012 6:06:28 PM   
Kwik E Mart


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey

Ummm...even with all the deep thought going on in this thread, it is still easier to figure out astrophysics and neutrinos than it is to understand the air and ground combat routines of WitP - AE. Obviously BORKED.


...i think the leader bug was proof positive that philadelphia experiment concepts were integrated into the coding of this game...

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RE: OT: Radios - 5/18/2012 8:05:27 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey
Ummm...even with all the deep thought going on in this thread, it is still easier to figure out astrophysics and neutrinos than it is to understand the air and ground combat routines of WitP - AE. Obviously BORKED.

In the spirit in which it is given - i.e., all Knavey 'This Game is BORKED' posts have a 'real' answer - I'll give a shot to an answer.

It all depends on multiple reference frames. Just look at Midway; there was the carriers, there was a bunch of groups in the air, and they are all in different inertial reference frames. Woof !!

When somebody got a hit on a carrier, just which reference frame was that hit in relation to? Maybe the pilot saw a hit, but maybe an observer on the carrier saw a miss; it could happen (Einstein's Train paradox). Maybe Akagi and Kaga got whacked, but maybe they weren't there yet in order to get whacked (Andromeda paradox).

So the combat routines take us away from such mental froth and simply roll the dice to see which reference frame gets recorded.

How am I doing, Knavey?

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RE: OT: Radios - 5/18/2012 8:39:59 PM   
Knavey

 

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I studied nuclear stuff in the Navy. Just put a knife through my head and it would be more comfortable than understanding the stuf in this thread!

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RE: OT: Radios - 5/18/2012 11:32:21 PM   
danlongman

 

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So when Schroedinger's kat opened the box the Japanes lost the war?

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RE: OT: Radios - 5/19/2012 12:02:41 AM   
wdolson

 

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The sync bug happened and Japan both lost and won the war, depending on which player you were. But then that's Quantum Mechanics.

This is a much more advanced game than you realize.

Bill

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RE: OT: Radios - 5/21/2012 5:08:14 AM   
Ddog

 

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I emailed my friend and this was his reply to anyone that's interested. He even dumbed down the speed of light talk for me. And he included a link to a comic.

Folows
:


As for the neutrinos going faster than light, the beam from Geneva to
Italy claimed they saw this, then they let rumours leak (but no details)
that it was mistaken - a loose cable was an excuse: it's hard to imagine
how that would create a delay, but possible. Would love for them to act
like scientists and actually explain their observations in detail.
We've been busting butt trying to make the measurement with our beam
(Chicago->MN) and have to have an answer of some sort out by the big
neutrino conference beginning of June in Kyoto So, Real Soon Now
we'll have a measurement of neutrino speed we can trust, nothing like
doing the job yourself :)

I'd be really suprised if they did ring in faster than light, but it
would be way cool.

As for catching radio waves while going fast: no problem. You jump in a
spaceship and get cranking really fast (assuming you're not a neutrino
you're not going equal to or faster than light: this is true for
everything else we've measured, and we measure this a lot). You'll
still see the radio waves coming in at "c". That's Einstein's bit: no
matter where you are or wht you're doing, everyone sees light moving at
the same speed (186,000 miles/sec).

Which is weird. How does it all add up? The answer is that space and
time change based on how fast you're going (velocity = distance/time) to
fudge things out so it all adds up in the end.

So: you're headed off in a 0.9c Dauntless off to intercept my carrier
("slow but deadly" my ass). You'll see my radio signals calling for
some air cover: they'll hit your radio at "c". You will see them
doppler shifted: they'll appear to be much higher frequency as you plow
into the waves (the old "blue shift/red shift" thing).

I see you coming in fast. I'll hear your taunts on the radio hit my
antenna at the same "c". They will be also blueshifted as you zoom in.
The really weird thing: I'll see your time slow down. From my
perspective, your clock ticks more slowly. Note that to you, we're
still closing at 0.9c, and you see exactly the same thing: my carrier's
clock is ticking too slow too.

(fun games with this: look up the "twin paradox").

This really does happen. We can't get planes and people that fast, but
we can get subatomic particles cranked up to within a gnat's ass of
"c". If we use unstable particles, say a muon, we know that they're
unstable and have a half-life of 2.2 microseconds. However, fling them
around at high speed, and they last longer. Change the speed they move,
and their lifetime tracks the calculations of clock change vs. speed
exacly as the calculations predict.

The GPS system has to take all this into account: the satellites and you
are all flying around space, and it turns out gravity itself does the
same time-slowing trick, so where things are in relation to the earth
has to be figured in. If we didn't have the satellites and the
receivers programmed with the relativity calculations, the timing that
lets people figure out where they are would be completely off.

One of the ways we're timing our neutrino beam is with a bunch of really
cool GPS's and atomic clocks on loan from NIST and USNO (they're in
charge of the nation's clocks). It's been a really fun project, getting
to play with a lot of cool new toys!

And here is the Link:
http://xkcd.com/955/

Hope you enjoy!

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RE: OT: Radios - 5/21/2012 7:57:30 AM   
ilovestrategy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zzodr

Yes, sadly, we won't be going anywhere beyond our solar system with manned spacecraft. As much as discovery of other planets intrigues and excites us.



You don't know that. None of us do.

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