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RE: European Championships - 4/10/2014 6:42:07 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

quote:

I find Mourinho irritating - extremely so this season, but I do not understand how he can be said to be "not a great coach". Look at what he has won. So many titles in many countries - he has never been beaten at Stamford Bridge! Having an expensively assembled squad is no guarantee of success.


For starters, having great, world-class players is like err... the 80% of the job done... To Mourinho it's the 0% because when he wins it's always - and I mean ALWAYS- "I won x, I won y, I won z...". On the other hand, when he loses it is never -and I mean NEVER- his fault. It's the referee's or his players's fault (or some other conspiracy).

Having said that, Mourinho only trains big mega expensive teams (except his first Porto). He's said more than once that he would never train "mediocre" teams.

So he's got the caviar (world-class players) but he still plays as if he was in charge of let's say Fulham. This alone does not make him a great coach on my book, sorry. And I concede I might be wrong. In other words, he has nothing to offer to football. Nothing new (the Italians already invented the catenaccio), nothing revolutionary.

Oh yes, he is the prefered coach of the mega-millionaires. "Gimme your world class players, they will be playing like a small team (forget a beautiful spectacle), I'll give (with my behaviour) a bad name to your club, I'll poke other coaches in the eye, I will threaten kids..."

Sooner or later he is going to run out of these great squads... and that day he will finally disappear from the map. And that will be great news for football
warspite1

TD I thought you were a serious footie fan . How can you say having world class players is 80% of the job done? How many world class players does it take? what if the opposition has world class players? What if those world class players the opposition have are world classier?

So you are essentially saying he won the Champions League with Porto (but must have got lucky because I'm damn sure there were teams in the competition that year with better - many better - players) and then went to Chelsea, Inter and Real and had better players or else he would not have had success. You sure he had better players at Inter than did Barcelona?? Really?

So by definition are you also saying that managers cannot fail if they have world class players? Well that can't be true - look at the procession of failed managers who have had decent teams that they have destroyed. What happened to Inter after Mourinho left?

You pick out Mourinho for saying nothing is ever his fault? Have a look at the great sayings of Ferguson or Wenger - in fact any successful manager.

I tell you what, I wish Spurs had a manager as rubbish as Mourinho.

I love a good football debate


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(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 1411
RE: European Championships - 4/10/2014 7:33:28 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
TD I thought you were a serious footie fan . How can you say having world class players is 80% of the job done? How many world class players does it take? what if the opposition has world class players? What if those world class players the opposition have are world classier?


The players is what really matters (in fact most --if not all-- coaches say so). I am dead serious. And I would say the history of this sport agrees with me. Look at the winners (the rule, not the exception). When a club or national team (ie World Cup) has had a Golden Generation, they have basically won or really close (Holland ). It's simple as that, no need to make it complicated. This is no rocket science.

I am not saying the job of the coach is not important. But when you have plenty of caviar at hand, losing is up to you (winning is never guaranteed, agreed). I will argue till the cows come home: I cannot consider Mourinho a great coach (effective, yes) because he always plays like small teams do. Do you remember a Champions League match in which Etoo (an attacker) was playing as a wing-back? That's what weak squads do. And that's what Mourinho is "offering". Greatness? Never.

And this when he's got many resources.

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Post #: 1412
RE: European Championships - 4/10/2014 7:43:07 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
TD I thought you were a serious footie fan . How can you say having world class players is 80% of the job done? How many world class players does it take? what if the opposition has world class players? What if those world class players the opposition have are world classier?


The players is what really matters (in fact most --if not all-- coaches say so). I am dead serious. And I would say the history of this sport agrees with me. Look at the winners (the rule, not the exception). When a club or national team (ie World Cup) has had a Golden Generation, they have basically won or really close (Holland ). It's simple as that, no need to make it complicated. This is no rocket science.

I am not saying the job of the coach is not important. But when you have plenty of caviar at hand, losing is up to you (winning is never guaranteed, agreed). I will argue till the cows come home: I cannot consider Mourinho a great coach (effective, yes) because he always plays like small teams do. Do you remember a Champions League match in which Etoo (an attacker) was playing as a wing-back? That's what weak squads do. And that's what Mourinho is "offering". Greatness? Never.

And this when he's got many resources.
warspite1

What does a small team play like? Wigan are a small team but Martinez had them playing proper, passing football.

To win TWO Champions League's - one with Porto, to be unbeaten at home with Chelsea in about four years, to have been in management for 10 seasons and to have won the title in SEVEN of those. How is that not the record of a great?

Every football fan wants to see their side winning trophies and playing "shexy football" at the same time. It rarely happens - certainly not for any length of time. The Dutch teams of 74 and 78, the Hungarian team of 54 - if only they had had better managers. Being world class wasn't enough for them.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/10/2014 8:50:41 PM >


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Post #: 1413
RE: European Championships - 4/10/2014 11:27:52 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

What does a small team play like? Wigan are a small team but Martinez had them playing proper, passing football.


It depends who they are facing. If they face a similar or weak team they might attack and go for the jugular. If they face a superior team (ie better players) they will park the bus and counter-attack.

And this (parking the bus) is exactly what Mourinho systematically does (despite he has REALLY expensive teams) when he's facing great squads. But here the point is that Wigan, Fulham or any other weak team have an alibi: fighting toe-to-toe with let's say Bayern Munchen is a mere suicide. There's a huge quality gap.

Mourinho's alibi? None. He could perfectly go for the jugular and finish his opponents in big style. Therefore his contribution to football is err... more parking the bus, the plane and the players's cars.

Think about this: the guy does not give a rat's ar** about his teams. It's "I won champions leagues", and never his fault when they lose. He is only interested about his curriculum.

I have really bad news for him. His teams will NEVER be remembered. And I mean remembered as the Holland of the 70s, the mythical Brazil of the 60s or the über German Football Machine, or the clinical Italian squads.

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Post #: 1414
RE: European Championships - 4/10/2014 11:42:26 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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And anyway you make it sound as if he was making miracles. He is training squads with massive budgets. He (or anyone else in charge) is expected to win, or at least getting close

And by the way, maybe he won't be winning anything this year. At Real Madrid he won *few* titles by the way. And this despite the club had never spent so much money *before*. Massive amounts of money and we have to believe this guy is some sort of genius (especially when his recipe is parking the bus!)?

Are you sure many guys would not be able to more or less replicate this?

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Post #: 1415
RE: European Championships - 4/11/2014 3:35:51 AM   
warspite1


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Okay, forget about what I think - so how many managers have replicated what Mourinho has done? In the history of the game? You can count them on the fingers of one hand.

Yes, if you have expensively assembled squads chairmen like you to win a trophy or two . But it does not always happen. As I say, what did Benitez do to Inter Milan, what has David Moyes done with a Manchester United team that won the league by a dozen points or something? How much money did Mancini spend?? He won one league title (and one FA Cup) by the slimmest of margins, relying on a freak two goal spree in injury time, at home, against lowly QPR - and that was after Manchester United (most unusually for them) threw away a points advantage in the last few games of the season. What did he do in the Champions League? Never got out of the group stage. By the way, the FA Cup win was by the slimmest of margins too - 1-0 against lowly Stoke City.

From what you have said it is obvious you do not like Mourinho as a person and you do not like the style of football he plays. On the first point I think that is entirely understandable, and on the second point that is entirely understandable . Fine, no problem. Okay, he is not a likeable character and his teams do not play "shexy football"; neither of these disqualify him from being considered a great manager. Football management is a results based business - and Mourinho gets results. He wins the big, most important trophies. Look at his Champions League results - and that includes "losing" to Liverpool in the semi-final with the goal that never was, and the total travesty that was the defeat to Barcelona.

And while we are talking about "shexy football" I don't recall Manchester United ever being lauded for their style of play. Arsenal, yes, but not Manchester United. Ferguson was just as unlikeable as Mourinho - always moaning, never his fault, always the referee, or the cheating opposition or the colour of his team's away shirt then we had "Fergie time" (by the way that is proven to be a fact - when Manchester United were losing at Old Trafford, the injury time was longer than when they were winning!!) So was Ferguson not a great manager? That would be a difficult one to argue.



_____________________________

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Post #: 1416
RE: European Championships - 4/11/2014 11:43:31 AM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Football management is a results based business - and Mourinho gets results.


That's the whole thing

Mourinho is the self-appointed coach of the mega-millionaires, some sort of toy. But there is a problem... since he left Chelsea and joined Real Madrid he's won few titles (last 3 years?). So he's basically failed (despite the massive amounts of money). Let's imagine he's not winning anything this year (league or champions league)...

Oh oh, the various mega-millionaires and oligarchs might drop the toy after all! And given that the guy is not interested in the plebs (non-elite teams), bye bye Mourinho!

Then he will spend the rest of his life as let's say a pundit on TV. Prepare yourself He will constantly remind the poor audience that "I won x champions leagues, I won y leagues, etc. etc." and when things went wrong "I trusted my players but they failed me..."

The guy is beyond a joke. Do you remember some weeks ago, vs West Ham? He bashed, insulted that team...

"It's very difficult to play a football match where only one team wants to play, very difficult," HAHA
"A match is about two teams playing. This match was only one team playing and another team not" HAHAHA
"West Ham played 19th-century' football"
"Visitors' tactics were not worthy of the Premier League"

He, the ANTI-football buffoon saying that. He's done systematically that when he's faced big squads! Always! He forgot to add that West Ham had a good alibi (they are weak).

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Post #: 1417
RE: European Championships - 4/11/2014 5:20:27 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Football management is a results based business - and Mourinho gets results.


That's the whole thing

Mourinho is the self-appointed coach of the mega-millionaires, some sort of toy. But there is a problem... since he left Chelsea and joined Real Madrid he's won few titles (last 3 years?). So he's basically failed (despite the massive amounts of money). Let's imagine he's not winning anything this year (league or champions league)...

warspite1

Since he left Chelsea in 2008 and joined Madrid?

He joined Inter Milan
2008-2009 - Serie A Champions + Italian SuperCup
2009-2010 - Serie A Champions, Champions League and Coppa Italia (First Italian team to ever win the treble)
He Joined Real Madrid
2010-2011 - Copa del Rey (Real's first trophy since 2008)
2011-2012 - La Liga Champions + Supercopa de Espana
2012-2013 - No trophies.

So that's 3 league titles out of 5 seasons. He finished runner up in the other two season at Madrid and was Champions League semi-finalist 3 years running. You seriously call that failure?? Really??

Exactly what have Inter won since Mourinho left?

And if you say Mourinho will win nothing at Chelsea then its fair to venture that Ancelotti will win nothing at Real - so that's no trophies this season for Real despite spending over £100m on Gareth Bale.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/11/2014 6:41:03 PM >


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Post #: 1418
RE: European Championships - 4/12/2014 12:07:20 AM   
TulliusDetritus


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And? Before he arrived to Italy the Inter was already one of the strongest teams in Italy (no Cinderella) And then (as always) massive amounts of money were poured.

As for Real Madrid every coach over there is expected to win (business as usual). Even Pellegrini won a league there, and no one says he's a genius (and he might grab another league in England go figure). That's the normal thing to do. But make no mistake, Mourinho was brought to grab the Decima (tenth European Cup that is). He had three chances (three years) and failed.

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Post #: 1419
RE: European Championships - 4/12/2014 12:14:38 AM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
And if you say Mourinho will win nothing at Chelsea then its fair to venture that Ancelotti will win nothing at Real - so that's no trophies this season for Real despite spending over £100m on Gareth Bale.


I am not saying that. I hope he does not win anything, that's for sure The league it's complicated and in the Champions League anything can happen. One thing is certain, if he makes it to the final and plays vs Bayern I guarantee you that he is going to park the bus, the plane and the player's cars. Oh, and Etoo is available! He will be ordered to pull back (possibly before minute 15) and play again as a wing-back

He's making history, no doubt!

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Post #: 1420
RE: European Championships - 4/12/2014 1:30:37 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

And? Before he arrived to Italy the Inter was already one of the strongest teams in Italy (no Cinderella) And then (as always) massive amounts of money were poured.

As for Real Madrid every coach over there is expected to win (business as usual). Even Pellegrini won a league there, and no one says he's a genius (and he might grab another league in England go figure). That's the normal thing to do. But make no mistake, Mourinho was brought to grab the Decima (tenth European Cup that is). He had three chances (three years) and failed.
warspite1

No he didn't. he won nothing at Real Madrid and got sacked. Have a look at the money he spent too…….Ronaldo, Benzema and Alonso - that well over £100m.

You keep saying about "massive amounts of money" but it would be good if you could come up with examples e.g. what Mourinho has spent compared to other, far less successful, managers of big clubs in Europe.

Inter was one of the strongest teams? Why do you think Mancini was sacked? Did he get past the last 16 in the Champions League?



< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/12/2014 4:23:45 AM >


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Post #: 1421
RE: European Championships - 4/12/2014 2:26:12 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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Oops, yes, my mistake about Pellegrini. He had harvested the maximum number of points though (a record): 96. But of course he had to face err... Barcelona (when they were on fire). That same Barcelona trashed Mourinho's Real Madrid 5 - 0. But no matter what, if you are in charge of RM you are supposed to win. It's a yes or yes scenario.

As for Inter, this team is -historically speaking- some sort of Cinderella. They won 2 European Cups (Champions League of the time) in the 60s then *poof* more or less disappeared. Before Mourinho arrived, the team had managed to get to the top though: winning the Serie A. In other words, he was taking advantage of the momentum, no matter the sacking of the previous manager.

Mourinho is doing the rounds of the *strongest + lots of money* teams. If you want to know if other guy could do the same you need a coach that a) toured the European elite teams and b) had lots of money, and I will add c) he will play like small teams play

And given that his recipe is "parking the bus" (with really skilled players at his disposal), he manages to lose few matches. The price to pay? You're offering elite teams to play as if they were about to be relegated. It's ruthless and efficient (I don't deny this, numbers speak for themselves). But it's cheap and miserable. That's why I said his teams will never be remembered. That's why I said his contribution to football is basically zero (his curriculum only matter to him).

What kind of fans love him? Those who have been really hungry, homeless (Inter, golden age in the 60s, that's a long time waiting; resurrection in the 2000s), Chelsea, Real Madrid (they were facing an utter Football Machine in their domestic league: Barcelona). Or we might call it desperation: "make us play like a small, weak team but please bag titles for us!"...

But that makes him very vulnerable. He's only got a few bullets (elite teams). The day his recipe will not work (I insist, he failed at RM: he was supposed to bring the Champions League trophy) it's over. The end is near, I smell it!

That or... eating the humble pie. Mourinho doing that?? Not a chance!

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Post #: 1422
RE: European Championships - 4/12/2014 2:27:16 PM   
warspite1


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You've got to hand it to Spurs - 2-0 down after 4 minutes and have now missed a penalty.....one word - QUALITY.

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Post #: 1423
RE: European Championships - 4/12/2014 2:41:50 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Oops, yes, my mistake about Pellegrini. He had harvested the maximum number of points though (a record): 96. But of course he had to face err... Barcelona (when they were on fire). That same Barcelona trashed Mourinho's Real Madrid 5 - 0. But no matter what, if you are in charge of RM you are supposed to win. It's a yes or yes scenario.

As for Inter, this team is -historically speaking- some sort of Cinderella. They won 2 European Cups (Champions League of the time) in the 60s then *poof* more or less disappeared. Before Mourinho arrived, the team had managed to get to the top though: winning the Serie A. In other words, he was taking advantage of the momentum, no matter the sacking of the previous manager.

Mourinho is doing the rounds of the *strongest + lots of money* teams. If you want to know if other guy could do the same you need a coach that a) toured the European elite teams and b) had lots of money, and I will add c) he will play like small teams play

And given that his recipe is "parking the bus" (with really skilled players at his disposal), he manages to lose few matches. The price to pay? You're offering elite teams to play as if they were about to be relegated. It's ruthless and efficient (I don't deny this, numbers speak for themselves). But it's cheap and miserable. That's why I said his teams will never be remembered. That's why I said his contribution to football is basically zero (his curriculum only matter to him).

What kind of fans love him? Those who have been really hungry, homeless (Inter, golden age in the 60s, that's a long time waiting; resurrection in the 2000s), Chelsea, Real Madrid (they were facing an utter Football Machine in their domestic league: Barcelona). Or we might call it desperation: "make us play like a small, weak team but please bag titles for us!"...

But that makes him very vulnerable. He's only got a few bullets (elite teams). The day his recipe will not work (I insist, he failed at RM: he was supposed to bring the Champions League trophy) it's over. The end is near, I smell it!

That or... eating the humble pie. Mourinho doing that?? Not a chance!
warspite1

Sorry but every statement shows that your point of view is based on dislike for the man because you are not even treating results in similar fashion. You were wrong about Pellegrini but then point to his "record points score" - so what he still lost? But you won't accept it when Mourinho wins stuff - let alone come second.... That is not being objective - just biased. Equally you point to Pellegrini and that they only lost because Barcelona "were on fire". Once again, Mourinho is allowed no such excuse when losing to Barcelona...

With Inter again you miss the point completely. Inter is a big club in Italy, they are expected to win things and yes, Mancini won things - domestically. He was not sacked for that - he was sacked for being totally inept in the Champions league - the biggest trophy in European football - AND the trophy that Mourinho won with...Inter Milan AGAINST..... yep, the mighty Barcelona (you know, the ones that were on fire) and in the process also won the Italian treble which no one else - not even the great AC Milan - has ever achieved.

Mourinho failed at Madrid? Have a look at their record - a lot of very good managers with big reputations have failed at Real Madrid....

I noticed you ignored the challenge re money spent




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Post #: 1424
RE: European Championships - 4/12/2014 3:37:04 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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Humm, not sure you follow the Serie A. Inter is the eternal underachiever (because they are one of the Great). They had a golden age in the 60s and after that a loooong period in the wilderness: few random titles here and there. BUT they managed to resurface in the 2000s. And Mourinho had absolutely nothing to do with that. Mancini, the money, etc. etc. did it. In Italy almost everyone hates Milan AC. Inter is the laughing stock though.

As for RM, I mean, if he is such a genius, how come he only managed to grab one league (out of three)? The league -along with the Champions League- is the serious title, by the way, the bread and butter. The Copa del Rey can be grabbed by more teams (a list of 6 or 7 teams). And this 5 - 0 trashing puts things in perspective. The team did not improve a lot after Pellegrini... Yes, he failed. You have to understand these people are on a different level: they must grab the 10th Champions League title. And this, he didn't deliver (three opportunities). He admitted his defeat when he said "I was the one who ended Barcelona supremacy". Boll*cks! There are cycles in football, and Barcelona cycle is over. A natural death.

Yes, his Inter defeated Barcelona (with Etoo playing as a wing-back, as previously mentioned, because that WAS the match). In big style LOL That match only proves Barcelona was inmensely superior. It also proves, no matter the money he's spent, Mourinho always plays as weak teams. And finally, it also proves in football victory is never guaranteed. And that's indeed a good thing.

Here the Liverpool which won the Champions League in 2005 is teaching us a lesson. They were an average -if not poor- team (and I am talking about players, or the lack of word-class players). They did not park the bus. They were more or less solid and tried to WIN (aka attack) their games. Outplayed in the first part of the final, they managed an astonishing comeback. Inter victory on the other hand had nothing special. Parking the bus is not -and will never be- heroic, except if you happen to be a poor, average team...

The fans all over the world know this. The 2005 final was err... Greatness! And that's something Mourinho will never smell. Remember, the Curriculum Vitae is his problem.

Challenge about the money? So Mourinho played with average, bad players? NEVER.

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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1425
RE: European Championships - 4/12/2014 4:04:39 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Humm, not sure you follow the Serie A. Inter is the eternal underachiever (because they are one of the Great). They had a golden age in the 60s and after that a loooong period in the wilderness: few random titles here and there. BUT they managed to resurface in the 2000s. And Mourinho had absolutely nothing to do with that. Mancini, the money, etc. etc. did it. In Italy almost everyone hates Milan AC. Inter is the laughing stock though.

As for RM, I mean, if he is such a genius, how come he only managed to grab one league (out of three)? The league -along with the Champions League- is the serious title, by the way, the bread and butter. The Copa del Rey can be grabbed by more teams (a list of 6 or 7 teams). And this 5 - 0 trashing puts things in perspective. The team did not improve a lot after Pellegrini... Yes, he failed. You have to understand these people are on a different level: they must grab the 10th Champions League title. And this, he didn't deliver (three opportunities). He admitted his defeat when he said "I was the one who ended Barcelona supremacy". Boll*cks! There are cycles in football, and Barcelona cycle is over. A natural death.

Yes, his Inter defeated Barcelona (with Etoo playing as a wing-back, as previously mentioned, because that WAS the match). In big style LOL That match only proves Barcelona was inmensely superior. It also proves, no matter the money he's spent, Mourinho always plays as weak teams. And finally, it also proves in football victory is never guaranteed. And that's indeed a good thing.

Here the Liverpool which won the Champions League in 2005 is teaching us a lesson. They were an average -if not poor- team (and I am talking about players, or the lack of word-class players). They did not park the bus. They were more or less solid and tried to WIN (aka attack) their games. Outplayed in the first part of the final, they managed an astonishing comeback. Inter victory on the other hand had nothing special. Parking the bus is not -and will never be- heroic, except if you happen to be a poor, average team...

The fans all over the world know this. The 2005 final was err... Greatness! And that's something Mourinho will never smell. Remember, the Curriculum Vitae is his problem.

Challenge about the money? So Mourinho played with average, bad players? NEVER.
warspite1

Just because Inter Milan had won a few titles before Mourinho makes not the slightest bit of difference to the argument - indeed it strengthens Mourinho's case i.e. he took a strong Inter side and made it better - he made them Champions of Europe....Something Mancini was incapable of.

So what are you saying? Mancini delivered titles on a shoestring? Also if its so damn easy to win - because your predecessor won, then I repeat - what the hell happened with Benitez and every Inter manager since???

But of course its not easy - its not just about having money - you have to spend that money wisely, you have to get the right players. If it was easy then you would not have failures.

You also contradict your argument too many times - the Inter victory was not special - but you admitted Barcelona was immensely superior...er that makes the victory special.....

I am not saying Mourinho played with bad or average players. I AM saying you are exaggerating how much his success is due to money compared with other managers - most of whom are immeasurably less successful. If only Mourinho spends money then who bought: Ronaldo, Messi, Naymar, Kaka, Torres , Bale, Zidane, Ibrahimovic etc etc etc.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/12/2014 5:46:58 PM >


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(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 1426
RE: European Championships - 4/12/2014 4:56:10 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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I told you at the beginning of the discussion that having great players is 80% of the job. If you don't have them you really have to struggle and have tons of good luck (as Liverpool in 2005).

Why do you think Mourinho is constantly talking about a striker? Because he needs it. No striker = nothing to do (no matter Mourinho, the Big Man, the Genius himself is in charge). So here you have a coach saying "having great players is essential"... This is a *minimum* I also said that victory is never guaranteed. And I also said Mourinho IS effective.

Inter victory was not special because Mourinho had a Porsche but used it as a cart... Liverpool in 2005 had a cart and used it as a Porsche... Can you see the difference? It's the difference between greatness and *nothing special* Liverpool could have perfectly used their cart as a... cart... They didn't, and that's why that match will be remembered by fans (and I am talking about neutrals). Mourinho's finals remembered? Ehhh???

I am not exagerating. It is really simple: the 80% of the success (arbitrary I know) is having the great players first. And only big money (sometimes luck) buys them. I already told you what his recipe is. Again: "gimme that Rolls Royce, I'll use it as a cart"...

Give Mourinho (or Guardiola or Heynckes or Ferguson or whoever important in the business) mediocre teams, those who struggle in the middle of the table. And NO extra, mega money...

What I said about Inter is that Mourinho happened to arrive there (what a coincidence; nah, he would never dare sully his curriculum vitae) when the team had ended that long period in the wilderness. Mourinho is no fool. He is only going to places where victory is at hand... Strong teams and/or money money money (to buy the great players). What happened to Inter afer him? The end of a cycle perhaps, which started in the early 2000s?

All these are subjective opinions. I don't pretend them to be 100% right, by the way

But it's a fact that he's got mega expensive (aka skilled) players and yet plays as small teams play (the teams which only have *average* and *poor* players). That IS his sin. To me that is. It's a philosophical issue, as you can see

And that clownish attitude doesn't help either.

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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1427
RE: European Championships - 4/12/2014 5:06:20 PM   
Orm


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It takes skill to make star players play disciplined defensive football.

Also remember that Chelsea had spend a lot of money before Mourinho but they got no titles. But with Mourinho they won titles.

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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1428
RE: European Championships - 4/12/2014 5:11:27 PM   
warspite1


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Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree as we are at polar opposite ends.

I am afraid I simply do not understand how you can say that great managers cannot take "mediocre" teams and make them great.

How did Sir Alex Ferguson come to manage Manchester United in the first place? That man broke the Glasgow duopoly of Celtic and Rangers with Aberdeen - an amazing achievement - and he won a European trophy in the process. How did Mourinho come to manage Chelsea? - Abramovich and his millions were not exactly spoiled for choice. Er, maybe winning back to back European trophies - including the CHAMPIONS League with Porto helped that decision?....

Very few managers CHOOSE to go backwards in their careers - unless they have to because they have mucked up their CV. Why is it a surprise that Mourinho (having deservedly earned such a great reputation as a coach) does not want to manage lesser clubs?

Having 60%, 70%, 80% great players means nothing if the manager cannot coach, cannot win the physiological battle, cannot instil belief in his players, cannot choose the right tactics.

Mourinho is unlikeable in so many ways. But NOT a great coach? That is simply not true.

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(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 1429
RE: European Championships - 4/12/2014 5:15:40 PM   
Orm


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Watching second half of Wigan versus Arsenal. 0-0 so far.

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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1430
RE: European Championships - 4/12/2014 5:40:37 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

You've got to hand it to Spurs - 2-0 down after 4 minutes and have now missed a penalty.....one word - QUALITY.

So what about the rest of the match? It ended in a 3-3 draw?

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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1431
RE: European Championships - 4/12/2014 5:49:05 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

You've got to hand it to Spurs - 2-0 down after 4 minutes and have now missed a penalty.....one word - QUALITY.

So what about the rest of the match? It ended in a 3-3 draw?
Warspite1

1-point against relegation threatened WBA. Great.......


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(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 1432
RE: European Championships - 4/12/2014 5:50:26 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 37545
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

Watching second half of Wigan versus Arsenal. 0-0 so far.
warspite1

Damn - Arsenal equalised... Only one winner now

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(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 1433
RE: European Championships - 4/12/2014 5:55:21 PM   
Orm


Posts: 16366
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

You've got to hand it to Spurs - 2-0 down after 4 minutes and have now missed a penalty.....one word - QUALITY.

So what about the rest of the match? It ended in a 3-3 draw?
Warspite1

1-point against relegation threatened WBA. Great.......


I was not saying it was great. But with that beginning many teams would have folded like a cheap suit.

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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1434
RE: European Championships - 4/12/2014 5:59:30 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 37545
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

You've got to hand it to Spurs - 2-0 down after 4 minutes and have now missed a penalty.....one word - QUALITY.

So what about the rest of the match? It ended in a 3-3 draw?
Warspite1

1-point against relegation threatened WBA. Great.......


I was not saying it was great. But with that beginning many teams would have folded like a cheap suit.
warspite1

The fact we did not fold (for a change) says more about the limitations of WBA than our shower.

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(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 1435
RE: European Championships - 4/12/2014 6:02:34 PM   
Orm


Posts: 16366
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

You've got to hand it to Spurs - 2-0 down after 4 minutes and have now missed a penalty.....one word - QUALITY.

So what about the rest of the match? It ended in a 3-3 draw?
Warspite1

1-point against relegation threatened WBA. Great.......


I was not saying it was great. But with that beginning many teams would have folded like a cheap suit.
warspite1

The fact we did not fold (for a change) says more about the limitations of WBA than our shower.

Yes. I am a bit disappointed with how The Spurs have performed this year.

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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1436
RE: European Championships - 4/12/2014 6:04:05 PM   
Orm


Posts: 16366
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

Watching second half of Wigan versus Arsenal. 0-0 so far.
warspite1

Damn - Arsenal equalised... Only one winner now

I think that the equaliser was well deserved. And now I get to watch extra time as a bonus.

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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1437
RE: European Championships - 4/12/2014 6:07:46 PM   
Orm


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Regarding "Fergie Time".

Have they considered if the other teams attempt to delay the game more when they play against the "great" teams and if that is part of the reason for the extra extra time?

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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 1438
RE: European Championships - 4/12/2014 6:11:10 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 37545
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

Watching second half of Wigan versus Arsenal. 0-0 so far.
warspite1

Damn - Arsenal equalised... Only one winner now

I think that the equaliser was well deserved. And now I get to watch extra time as a bonus.
warspite1

As a Spurs fan, nothing is deserved for Arsenal unless its bad

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 1439
RE: European Championships - 4/12/2014 7:23:32 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 37545
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From: England
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Rats.....

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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1440
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