Matrix Games

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ORIGINAL: Klydon

Thanks for the info Trey and some good points here.

One thing that has always bugged me that you may be able to help with is that when withdrawing, units are first brought up to full strength before withdrawing when in fact a lot of formations transferred when they were depleted. They were brought up to strength and then sent to other theaters (or rehabilitated in other theaters like France before the landings).

While I understand this might be a game and programing decision (game decision based on preventing abuse by players to totally wreck a formation just as it is withdrawing and programing decision in that everything is the same, so easier to code), it still isn't right and the German player is forced to deal with it. I wish I had a easy solution from the standpoint that the Germans already abuse units set to withdraw from a moral standpoint of view and tend to take better care of units they know will be in theater for the long haul. Perhaps a solution would be to introduce a random factor so that instead of knowing for fact that no matter what, the 94th infantry division is going to withdraw on 15 April 1943, the AI instead picks a division at random and the player gets the two turn notice as usual. Some divisions you can't get around this issue (7th Flieger for example), but for the standard divisions, it could be possible.

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ORIGINAL: el hefe

Klydon, I really don't like the withdrawal system myself and there could be some better ways of implementing the loss of these resources without a lock step rigid system. What I really don't like is that the withdrawal schedule is clearly known without any changes. I would be all for a more flexible system with some more randomness thrown in for uncertainty. I think that the game needs to model resources being withdrawn, I just wish it was a little more dynamic and even unpredictable at times.

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Sorry Trey but I have to disagree with you on that one. You get advanced notice on when a unit is going to withdraw so randomizing the date has no practical game effect beyond shifting the date a combat unit comes off the line in preparation for withdrawal. Like random weather it just adds goofyness in the guise of realism. A better solution would be to allow the Axis player to delay withdrawal at a cost in victory points.

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ORIGINAL: janh

Trey, Joel, just to clarify what I think to recall from your earlier explanations:

The resources used to reconstitute these historically destroyed formations are figured into the resource pools that the German player gets, right?
(a) Meaning that if 6th is not destroyed, in essence what is happening is that he experienced formations leave, but at least the replacements can make up for the numerical loss by boosting the remainder of the Eastern Wehrmacht? So in principle you "just" loose some shells?
(b) If 6th Army were to be destroyed in your particular game, then you are going to see things happen just they way they did back then, i.e. units being rebuild from the pools before leaving. So net, no difference here?

Sounds like an alternative solution to case (a) would be if the engine would create some "extra" shells that the player could then fill or disband (in case the remainder of his units were in acceptable shape), or even better, the player could decide to built extra units.

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but remember you are still only the East Front commander and are not running the entire war

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ORIGINAL: carlkay58

One of the problems in the game is that the Axis Player is just the Eastern Front commander but the Soviet Player is the Soviet commander - so we have Halder vs Stalin rather than Hitler vs Stalin.

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ORIGINAL: janh

Trey, Joel, just to clarify what I think to recall from your earlier explanations:

The resources used to reconstitute these historically destroyed formations are figured into the resource pools that the German player gets, right?
(a) Meaning that if 6th is not destroyed, in essence what is happening is that he experienced formations leave, but at least the replacements can make up for the numerical loss by boosting the remainder of the Eastern Wehrmacht? So in principle you "just" loose some shells?
(b) If 6th Army were to be destroyed in your particular game, then you are going to see things happen just they way they did back then, i.e. units being rebuild from the pools before leaving. So net, no difference here?

Sounds like an alternative solution to case (a) would be if the engine would create some "extra" shells that the player could then fill or disband (in case the remainder of his units were in acceptable shape), or even better, the player could decide to built extra units.

Trey, I agree with more randomization and uncertainty, as well as the idea to have players determine which sufficiently powerful formations could be easily spared in the actual game. Ultimately I think the combat boxes in old days were a neat little idea. I am already very curious about the new boxes system in WitW!

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ORIGINAL: jaw

No, Administrative Points are designed to simulate the difficulty of doing certain things like transferring units between corps/armies or organizing men and equipment into new formations (Soviet). If you delay a withdrawal then the military situation on the front that unit was supposed to go to (and almost all withdrawals are going to other fronts) will be adversely effected for every turn the unit is delayed. That adverse effect should cost you victory points not AP points.

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ORIGINAL: Panzer Meyer

I think the issue many are having here is that the 6th Armee wasn't withdrawn to serve on the Western front. It was destroyed at Stalingrad and then reconstituted in the West. When several crises arose in North Africa and Italy Germany had no choice but to use those divisions to fill in the gaps. It simply made sense given their proximity to the Mediterranean theater. The problem many people have with the seemingly arbitrary withdrawal schedule is that the game makes no allowance for players who chose a different path from history. If the Axis does not suffer a "Stalingrad" like disaster in the winter of 42/43, then it makes no sense to remove the 6th army. Of course since we do not have command of all theaters, it is reasonable to siphon off strength from the eastern front to deal with developments in the west. In my opinion it would be better to have a withdrawal schedule that forces the axis player to remove X number of infantry, motorized, and panzer formations at the end of their turn.

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ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.
Another old board game era solution to the same problem. The player must withdraw a certain number of units with a certain strength at a certain time. Not specific units, just a number of the type.

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ORIGINAL: Panzer Meyer

I think the issue many are having here is that the 6th Armee wasn't withdrawn to serve on the Western front. It was destroyed at Stalingrad and then reconstituted in the West. When several crises arose in North Africa and Italy Germany had no choice but to use those divisions to fill in the gaps. It simply made sense given their proximity to the Mediterranean theater. The problem many people have with the seemingly arbitrary withdrawal schedule is that the game makes no allowance for players who chose a different path from history. If the Axis does not suffer a "Stalingrad" like disaster in the winter of 42/43, then it makes no sense to remove the 6th army. Of course since we do not have command of all theaters, it is reasonable to siphon off strength from the eastern front to deal with developments in the west. In my opinion it would be better to have a withdrawal schedule that forces the axis player to remove X number of infantry, motorized, and panzer formations at the end of their turn.

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ORIGINAL: Schmart

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ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.
Another old board game era solution to the same problem. The player must withdraw a certain number of units with a certain strength at a certain time. Not specific units, just a number of the type.

Man...in many ways the old board games were much easier to deal with: "Create new holding box on scrap piece of paper. Remove from board counters totaling 50 CV before March 1943." Done! No prgramming, no bugs, etc.

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ORIGINAL: Panzer Meyer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmart

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.
Another old board game era solution to the same problem. The player must withdraw a certain number of units with a certain strength at a certain time. Not specific units, just a number of the type.

Man...in many ways the old board games were much easier to deal with: "Create new holding box on scrap piece of paper. Remove from board counters totaling 50 CV before March 1943." Done! No prgramming, no bugs, etc.

That's how I remember Rise and Fall of the Third Reich handling it if you played the Barbarossa scenario.