Matrix Games Forums

Space Program Manager Launch Contest Announced!Battle Academy 2 is out now on iPad!A closer look at rockets in Space Program ManagerDeal of the Week - Pride of NationsA new update for Piercing Fortress EuropaNew screenshots for War in the West!Pike & Shot is now available!Server Maintenance Battle Academy 2 gets updated!Deal of the Week: Advanced Tactics Gold
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Conflict of Heroes Series >> Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates - 5/12/2012 7:02:45 PM   
Binko

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 7/22/2003
From: United States
Status: offline
I'm basically a board wargamer. I bought CoH for the PC yesterday and I'm very happy with it. The AI seems a little weak. The fact that it can't really play the Germans means that it is not a robust and flexible AI. But that's not too important since, once I learn the ropes, I see this as primarily a game to played against human opponents.

I love that CoH PC stays so true to it's boardgame roots. But I wish it would be even more true. My primary desire would be to see a true 2D battlefield using the beautiful boardgame graphics. I know it's pretty much obligatory to have little 3D soldiers and a 3D map in a game that hopes to appeal to computer wargamers. But, in this case, the 3D adds absolutely nothing to the gameplay except LOS ambiguity and visual clutter.

A true 2D option would be a great thing but I accept that CoH PC will most likely remain a 3D game. In that case the 3D graphics need a couple of improvements.

1) It's incredibly hard to see the hills with the shader turned on. I have to turn the shader to simple just to get the hills to stand out from the open ground and this really decreases the overall appearance.

2) The counter graphics should be higher resolution and the shadows under the counters should have rounded corners like the counters do.

3) I use a high resolution monitor and I would really prefer that less of the screen be obscured by the interface elements. It would be very nice to be able to scale the interface so that all the interface elements shrink relative to the screen.

I'm enjoying the game very much and am happy I bought it. Once I become more more familiar with it I look forward to jumping into the multi-player. I only wanted to get my voice out there for these few graphic updates, especially in the hills and counters, that could hopefully be added to the future development list.
Post #: 1
RE: Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates - 5/12/2012 7:41:33 PM   
ioticus

 

Posts: 169
Joined: 6/13/2004
Status: offline
+1. I agree with everything you said except I would replace the "AI seems a little weak" to "AI is very weak".

(in reply to Binko)
Post #: 2
RE: Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates - 5/12/2012 10:58:46 PM   
wodin


Posts: 8014
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline
I hope the AI gets improvement over time. I'm going to hold off from buying as I'd never play multiplayer. From what I've read so far it seems people are soon beating the AI after a couple of goes.

Not sure how the AI is programmed and whether it's one of those games where scenario makers can make it give a good fight like say they do in CMBN. A great scenario maker can get the AI to punish you in the game, a poor one and the AI will be a walk over. It does sound to me though that that sort of clever scenario design and multi plans for the AI isn't possible in CoH.

Squad Battles AI improved overtime and Red Victory it's not bad. Especially on the defense, like many games this is the case I suppose, but like I said on the whole the AI has improved overtime.

Fingers crossed in a few patches or expansions I start to see some good comments about the AI and I will then buy the game. If I was the type of gamer who enjoyed multiplayer then I'd have no problem.

_____________________________

My Tactical wargame facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/Tacticalwargame


(in reply to ioticus)
Post #: 3
RE: Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates - 5/12/2012 11:15:56 PM   
Lebatron


Posts: 2142
Joined: 5/30/2005
From: Upper Michigan
Status: offline
There is hope though for much better AI. Eric has created a very flexible script for modders to play with. Given time I think some guys here will take up the challenge to make some great scripts and home brew scenarios.

On the visual side of things I completely agree. Personally, if I was the dev I would have made the game using the board games maps. And the 2nd edition boards are even better. See them online. They are fraken awesome. The newer ones could have been ported in right at the last minute because they were done months ago. So the updated boards could have went into the PC version before it went gold. All it would have taken was a simple swap out of what we were using during beta for the new boards. That is of coarse assuming the devs had used the board games boards in the first place and not tried to reinvent the wheel by doing their own map graphics, and after many hours of dev time created something that imo looks poor compared to the original boards.

It's my hope that for SoS WCS gives us the option to play with the real boards. I bet it would be super popular.

Now I here that Academy Games is having it newest effort Gettysburg ported to PC as well. Its game boards are awesome as well. Sadly, I have a feeling the same thing is going to happen. The PC dev will not use the beautiful game boards and waste development time pushing a 3D map that many actually don't want.

_____________________________

Jesse LeBreton, AKA Lebatron
Development team- GG's WAW A World Divided

(in reply to ioticus)
Post #: 4
RE: Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates - 5/12/2012 11:53:46 PM   
ioticus

 

Posts: 169
Joined: 6/13/2004
Status: offline
I also think they should have an option to tone down or eliminate the crater graphics after an artillery strike which does nothing but obscure the terrain below it.

(in reply to Lebatron)
Post #: 5
RE: Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates - 5/13/2012 12:01:26 AM   
JFalk68


Posts: 222
Joined: 11/5/2007
Status: offline
+1 Binko,

I agree with everything you say, but before I add my 2 cents I just want to say so far I am pleased with the game. All the elements of the board game are here and there is some activity from the devs and Matrix personel so you can tell that they are fully behind this product. I am so glad this game came out to the PC, after waiting for Hero's of Stalingrad to appear for years. THANK YOU for making this board game into a PC game!!!
With that said:

-Yes, I would love to high resolution counters
-A more boardgame look to the maps, maybe something an artistic modder could do?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Binko

I'm basically a board wargamer. I bought CoH for the PC yesterday and I'm very happy with it. The AI seems a little weak. The fact that it can't really play the Germans means that it is not a robust and flexible AI. But that's not too important since, once I learn the ropes, I see this as primarily a game to played against human opponents.

I love that CoH PC stays so true to it's boardgame roots. But I wish it would be even more true. My primary desire would be to see a true 2D battlefield using the beautiful boardgame graphics. I know it's pretty much obligatory to have little 3D soldiers and a 3D map in a game that hopes to appeal to computer wargamers. But, in this case, the 3D adds absolutely nothing to the gameplay except LOS ambiguity and visual clutter.

A true 2D option would be a great thing but I accept that CoH PC will most likely remain a 3D game. In that case the 3D graphics need a couple of improvements.

1) It's incredibly hard to see the hills with the shader turned on. I have to turn the shader to simple just to get the hills to stand out from the open ground and this really decreases the overall appearance.

2) The counter graphics should be higher resolution and the shadows under the counters should have rounded corners like the counters do.

3) I use a high resolution monitor and I would really prefer that less of the screen be obscured by the interface elements. It would be very nice to be able to scale the interface so that all the interface elements shrink relative to the screen.

I'm enjoying the game very much and am happy I bought it. Once I become more more familiar with it I look forward to jumping into the multi-player. I only wanted to get my voice out there for these few graphic updates, especially in the hills and counters, that could hopefully be added to the future development list.


(in reply to Binko)
Post #: 6
RE: Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates - 5/13/2012 12:13:33 AM   
Lebatron


Posts: 2142
Joined: 5/30/2005
From: Upper Michigan
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JFalk68

+1 Binko,

... All the elements of the board game are here and there is some activity from the devs and Matrix personel so you can tell that they are fully behind this product. I am so glad this game came out to the PC, after waiting for Hero's of Stalingrad to appear for years. THANK YOU for making this board game into a PC game!!!


It's only because I love CoH that I'm so critical. But ya the devs are working hard to make it better. And to their credit they are listening. If enough people feel as I do I'm sure we'll get what we want. Case in point, I got very vocal about the need to have the original AP system patched in and what do you know they are working on it right now. It pays to bitch


_____________________________

Jesse LeBreton, AKA Lebatron
Development team- GG's WAW A World Divided

(in reply to JFalk68)
Post #: 7
RE: Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates - 5/13/2012 12:19:13 AM   
JFalk68


Posts: 222
Joined: 11/5/2007
Status: offline
Good job Lebatron!

I took a peek in the lobby last night and saw you there, maybe we can get a game going sometime...but take it easy on me, I only just started figuring out the Monsters tutorial :)

(in reply to Lebatron)
Post #: 8
RE: Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates - 5/13/2012 12:33:42 AM   
M J R

 

Posts: 112
Joined: 3/27/2012
Status: offline
I was thinking along the same lines, whether it would be possible to redo the maps in the editor so the buildings, trees ect are added to the hex as a graphic instead of a 3D model.
You can disable the map models during a game with the "T" key so i imagine the attributes are tied to the hex and not the 3D model on the hex.

(in reply to JFalk68)
Post #: 9
RE: Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates - 5/13/2012 12:46:17 AM   
mh1066

 

Posts: 32
Joined: 5/11/2012
Status: offline
In general I agree with the observations regarding the visuals of the game design. The 3D perspective is worthless for actual gameplay and I find myself only using the top-down view. And the kicker is, in this view the game chits are mostly unreadable so that you have to use the stat bar to know the unit values anyway (generic blue and red squares with LMG, RIF, etc designation would have served as much good). Speaking of the HUD, I don't understand why so much screen real estate is used so ineffective? I spend most my time toggling the HUD off and on just to see a larger portion of the map. Don't get me wrong, I love the game and have waited a long time for a true tactics Wargamer like ASL to be brought to the PC. I can't help thinking THIS is the game's audience...I wonder if the designers really undertook this?

(in reply to Lebatron)
Post #: 10
RE: Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates - 5/13/2012 1:56:12 AM   
Binko

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 7/22/2003
From: United States
Status: offline
I'm primarily a board wargamer. I mostly play ASL but I dabble in other systems for fun. I've played the CoH boardgames a few times and enjoyed them. But my limited Face To Face play time is reserved for ASL so I'm not looking for more boardgames.

CoH PC is a great light game. And a great supplement to my boardgame focus. I really enjoy the way it models all the boardgame's finely tuned mechanics while adding things that only a computer can handle like Fog Of War.

But the 3D adds nothing to the game. Forgive me if I'm wrong because I've been away from computer wargames for awhile but isn't the recent Panzer Corps a success? And doesn't it use a 2D map? I think the focus on 3D was a misguided attempt to appeal to a broader body of gamers. Sure we have the top down view but basically it's just a top down view of the 3D map.

It drives me absolutely crazy that I can't easily see where the hills are. And it also drives me crazy that the odd undulating 3D hills often makes it impossible to look at the map and predict LOS from one hex to another. I really like so much about the game but if it feels like I'm constantly fighting the map I'll probably have to put it on hold until a 2D view is added or at least the top down view is vastly improved.

(in reply to mh1066)
Post #: 11
RE: Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates - 5/13/2012 12:06:33 PM   
Blind Sniper


Posts: 760
Joined: 8/9/2008
From: Turin, Italy
Status: offline
quote:

It's my hope that for SoS WCS gives us the option to play with the real boards. I bet it would be super popular.


Yes, another one here.
2D map and 2D counters would be my choice.

_____________________________

Advanced Squad Leader; Grand Tactical Series; Buzz Aldrin's Space Program Manager; War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition


(in reply to Binko)
Post #: 12
RE: Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates - 5/13/2012 12:26:13 PM   
hafer


Posts: 266
Joined: 8/28/2010
Status: offline
I favour definitely 3d models over counters. It adds so much immersion to the game. BTW, i think the 3d landscape works very well.

(in reply to Blind Sniper)
Post #: 13
RE: Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates - 5/13/2012 4:07:51 PM   
kvob

 

Posts: 86
Joined: 5/19/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Binko

It drives me absolutely crazy that I can't easily see where the hills are. And it also drives me crazy that the odd undulating 3D hills often makes it impossible to look at the map and predict LOS from one hex to another. I really like so much about the game but if it feels like I'm constantly fighting the map I'll probably have to put it on hold until a 2D view is added or at least the top down view is vastly improved.


I really like this game but feel exactly the same about the 3D.

(in reply to Binko)
Post #: 14
RE: Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates - 5/13/2012 5:23:57 PM   
ericbabe


Posts: 10682
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hafer
I favour definitely 3d models over counters. It adds so much immersion to the game. BTW, i think the 3d landscape works very well.


Thanks. The artists did a great job with the models and the textures. The guy who did the maps for the second version of the board game, Pat Ward, also did our scenery objects, and many of the textures in the computer game come from textures he used to create the flat maps for the board game.

It'd be great for me if every gamer out there felt the same way about flat maps and chits as most of the gentlemen on this thread do, but it does seem that the 3D graphics really do help the war games reach a wider audience.


_____________________________


(in reply to hafer)
Post #: 15
RE: Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates - 5/13/2012 5:33:26 PM   
Lebatron


Posts: 2142
Joined: 5/30/2005
From: Upper Michigan
Status: offline
Without a doubt it helps sell more copies. But when we (those that prefer 2D maps) are left without the choice to have it the way we wanted it seems very unfair. I do not think we are a tiny percent. We may even be the majority.

_____________________________

Jesse LeBreton, AKA Lebatron
Development team- GG's WAW A World Divided

(in reply to ericbabe)
Post #: 16
RE: Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates - 5/13/2012 6:57:37 PM   
ericbabe


Posts: 10682
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lebatron
when we (those that prefer 2D maps) are left without the choice to have it the way we wanted it seems very unfair


I regret I am unequal to the task of acting fairly toward any man if this be the standard of fairness to which I am to be held.

_____________________________


(in reply to Lebatron)
Post #: 17
RE: Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates - 5/13/2012 7:11:27 PM   
stormbringer3

 

Posts: 532
Joined: 7/26/2007
From: Staunton, Va.
Status: offline
I'm one of the gamers that 3D means absolutely nothing to me. I focus on the game and the AI. I still love playing Steel Panthers and those graphics are definitely dated.

(in reply to ericbabe)
Post #: 18
RE: Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates - 5/13/2012 7:59:55 PM   
Binko

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 7/22/2003
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe
It'd be great for me if every gamer out there felt the same way about flat maps and chits as most of the gentlemen on this thread do, but it does seem that the 3D graphics really do help the war games reach a wider audience.


I believe that is true in a general sense. But because Conflict Of Heroes is a much loved boardgame system I think you will find that a large percentage of your core audience will prefer 2D. In other words, the 3D might help sales to those who are going to buy it, play it for a bit and then move on. But the hardcore players who will be around for the long haul, buying expansions and supporting the game on forums, will be the ones who want want maximum clarity when it comes to the map. And that will generally mean 2D.

My guess is that the game is built from the ground up with 3D in mind. So it would probably be a big task to add true 2D. But could you at least do what you can to make the top down view more usable especially when it comes to seeing the hills.

Here are two easy ideas:
1) Countour lines showing elevation increases.
2) Instead of just saying "Open Ground" when moused over, how about "Open Ground, Hill Elevation 50" or something like that.

Some easy fixes like this would really help make the top-down 3D view more usable as a pseudo-2D view.



(in reply to ericbabe)
Post #: 19
RE: Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates - 5/13/2012 8:14:56 PM   
Bison36

 

Posts: 475
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline
I do like the idea of an addtional contour overlay. It can be difficult at times to easily determine height differences in the terrain. Also perhaps a toggle to "hide" trees to help read chits in them a little easier too.

(in reply to Binko)
Post #: 20
RE: Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates - 5/13/2012 8:24:03 PM   
ericbabe


Posts: 10682
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline
The 'T' key can be used to hide trees.

The engine already has the capability to use 2D maps, though because of the limits of some (even modern) graphics cards with regard to maximum texture size, the ground texture looks a bit pixelated.

_____________________________


(in reply to Bison36)
Post #: 21
RE: Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates - 5/13/2012 8:29:00 PM   
Bison36

 

Posts: 475
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

The 'T' key can be used to hide trees.




Cool. I was looking for a hot key in the manual and I didn't associate terrain with trees in the hot key listings. I might need to get more sleep.

(in reply to ericbabe)
Post #: 22
RE: Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates - 5/13/2012 10:51:55 PM   
Sarkus

 

Posts: 42
Joined: 7/5/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Binko
I believe that is true in a general sense. But because Conflict Of Heroes is a much loved boardgame system I think you will find that a large percentage of your core audience will prefer 2D. In other words, the 3D might help sales to those who are going to buy it, play it for a bit and then move on. But the hardcore players who will be around for the long haul, buying expansions and supporting the game on forums, will be the ones who want want maximum clarity when it comes to the map. And that will generally mean 2D.


I think "large percentage" may be an exagerration. The admittedly unscientific poll about why people bought CoH shows only about 1/4 of the respondents identifying themselves as owners of the board game. As someone who got into wargaming back when boardgames were the only real option I do understand the interest in 2D and a "boardgame" feel. But at the same time a lot of us prefer the 3D, at least in some types of games. Ideally games would support both options. However, that takes time and development money and I understand the reasons why WC made the choices they did.

(in reply to Binko)
Post #: 23
RE: Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates - 5/14/2012 12:00:49 AM   
robc04

 

Posts: 146
Joined: 1/15/2012
Status: offline
Just to throw my 2 cents into the ring. I am not a hard core wargamer or a board game wargamer, but I would prefer a 2D map if it meant the information was easier to determine (like LOS). The best case would be to support both of coarse. The 3D map looks nice, but for the majority of my play I stay pretty far zoomed out with an semi-overhead view. It would be really cool if the player could toggle between a 2D and 3D map.

_____________________________

Because I play too much,
One Guy, Too Many Games

(in reply to Sarkus)
Post #: 24
RE: Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates - 5/14/2012 3:11:35 AM   
wodin


Posts: 8014
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline
Thing is when a game comes out with a 2D map everyone is up in arms about it not being the stone age and how they want 3D battlefields, been mentioned loads in forums I've seen it mentioned many times in the Command Ops forum. So they have given people what they always ask for, now they have everyone wants it 2D!

In the screenshots I notice the buildings and trees don't match the terrain, it looks like to different art styles. I did think it would have been better either to give them that hand drawn painted look like the boardgame, or should have done two versions altogether, a 3D one and a 2D one.

AI scripts sounds great and makes me very hopeful.

< Message edited by wodin -- 5/14/2012 3:12:39 AM >


_____________________________

My Tactical wargame facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/Tacticalwargame


(in reply to robc04)
Post #: 25
RE: Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates - 5/14/2012 3:25:29 AM   
RockKahn

 

Posts: 144
Joined: 10/27/2011
From: USA
Status: offline
robc04. I toggle between Normal View and Top Down view all the time with the Change Camera button on the right. Is that what you mean?

< Message edited by RockKahn -- 5/14/2012 3:45:45 AM >

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 26
RE: Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates - 5/14/2012 3:32:12 AM   
JFalk68


Posts: 222
Joined: 11/5/2007
Status: offline
Wodin, nice facebook page for tactical wargames, I just gave it a "like" :)

& I shared the Game of Thrones/Final Fantasy parody...too funny!

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 27
RE: Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates - 5/14/2012 3:46:48 AM   
robc04

 

Posts: 146
Joined: 1/15/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Thing is when a game comes out with a 2D map everyone is up in arms about it not being the stone age and how they want 3D battlefields, been mentioned loads in forums I've seen it mentioned many times in the Command Ops forum. So they have given people what they always ask for, now they have everyone wants it 2D!



Just to clarify..
It isn't that I want 2D maps, I just want an easier time determining LOS from all hexes. If that way involves a 2D map that is fine, but if that involves adding some functionality to the 3D maps that works for me. I was just trying to state that it is the functionality that is most important, not whether the map is 2D or 3D.

Something like this:
1) Put the game in LOS mode.
2) click on hex and set facing arrow (like movement works) to determine LOS from that hex.
3) The hexes that are within LOS turn yellow (to match the normal LOS color)

You don't even need to limit by a range. Just extend it out equal to the max sight range in the game. The player knows the range of the unit they are trying to determine the LOS for and can ignore the hexes out of that range. Heck, put a little range number in the hex so the player can easily see at a glance how many hexes away it is from their selected hex. I have no idea how feasible something like this would be to add to the game, but I think that would work for me with the 3D map.


_____________________________

Because I play too much,
One Guy, Too Many Games

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 28
RE: Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates - 5/14/2012 3:50:54 AM   
Lebatron


Posts: 2142
Joined: 5/30/2005
From: Upper Michigan
Status: offline
I don't think having a long history with old board games has much to do with our preference for the Academy Games produced map boards over the PC's map. I could have been born yesterday and I would have been able to point out which map looks better before I could even say the word mommy. It's because Academy's map boards are so good that's why I want them used for my PC copy of the game and not because I'm some grognard that refuses to move into the future. Some seem to think that wanting 2D boards is some kind of backward looking personality defect. Take a look man. Take a good look at the top 2 boards for CoH AtB. Do they look dated to you? Below them I added an old school ASL map. Today's 2D when done right, done the Academy way, can't be beat. Just look at the close up. How could you argue against these 2D maps after seeing these????

The forth pic is proof of concept that the 2D board works well as a computerized translation. Notice the map tilt. It does not need to be top down. Here it is with a normal viewpoint like you would get sitting at the table playing it. This 40 degree slant is my preferred way of viewing the board.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Lebatron -- 5/14/2012 3:59:06 AM >


_____________________________

Jesse LeBreton, AKA Lebatron
Development team- GG's WAW A World Divided

(in reply to robc04)
Post #: 29
RE: Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates - 5/14/2012 5:04:44 AM   
GJK


Posts: 414
Joined: 7/17/2004
Status: offline
Functionally for LOS determination, the ASL map works the best.

(in reply to Lebatron)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Conflict of Heroes Series >> Great Game But Could Use a Few Graphic Updates Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.109