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RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A)

 
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 5/16/2012 8:11:13 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

I thought you had a house rule that limited you to one port strike on turn 1. How is it then that you are hitting both PH and Manila on Dec 7th?



One CV portstrike on turn 1.

Key being CV.

Hope it helps,

Rasmus


Thanks for clarifying that Walloc. Appreciated.

quote:

Also, what was your rationale for making a second strike on PH on Dec 8th? Based on the Dec 7th combat report, you got a result better than any I can remember getting. One BB reported sunk and two or three others probably sinking sounds pretty darn good to me. I know hindsight is 20/20 here, but I definitely would not have stuck around with a day one strike as good as the one you got.


The rationale for a second day at PH is that in my limited experience and in the way I was watching the replay and reading the reports, it didn't seem that I had sufficiently crippled the Allied fleet. That simple. Especially when to go a second day is very common in AE and I had not seen such an all-out move with the US fleet.

If I had followed my instincts and gone around Lihue to 6 hexes West of PH, I would've been in range of the Enterprise TF and numerous SCTFs near Pearl, most likely without any of them contacting me as they were sent East en masse. It would have been a field day. I didn't make this move because it's exactly the path I took in my first game, (also AARed information) and I thought he might expect something similar. My bad. Don't second guess best play.

(in reply to Walloc)
Post #: 31
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 5/16/2012 9:11:14 PM   
obvert


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What next?
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I feel badly I haven't updated much since the devastation on Dec 8. It's not because I'm so distraught I can't face posting, or that I don't have some thoughts on what to do next. Life is busy now in addition to the game. (And the baseball team I coach has been having almost as many problems as the IJN).

KB: So, 4 CVs are still afloat. Torsten seems to think it's a foregone conclusion that all will be destroyed. I'm not willing to concede that yet. There is still the chance I might be able to sacrifice a few capital ships for the CVs and get some away at flank speed. Not likely, but stranger things have happened.

The Kaga and Hiryu are toast. The Zuikaku is basically a goner with 38 59 28 plus 65 fires. I'll detach her to hopefully soak up one SCTF attack. A damaged DD that can't keep up will trail her in a SCTF.

Here is my question. What should I do with the rest of the KB? There is a screen shot below. Another with a map of the area will follow that.

I hope to pull a flank speed run NE and then NW toward open ocean.

Should I put any Vals/Kates on night attack or is this a waste of time? Will the CVs with damage take to flank speed or will they shudder and shake and fall apart all over the Pacific? Should I detach 1 BB 2CA and 2DD for a SCTF to trail the KB CVs and hope this soaks up most of the CA/CL/DD attacks? Or should I keep it all together and just run?

Have a look. See what you think. I could use any help I can get right now. I will keep playing the game, and I think it's going to be a fun challenge. It will be a lot more fun if I can save a few CVs.

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< Message edited by obvert -- 5/16/2012 9:26:48 PM >

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 32
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 5/16/2012 9:13:45 PM   
obvert


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Map
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I have a feeling there are still a lot of DDs with ammo out here, but the CL/CA TFs might be running short. So is this the best route? Is it a good idea to split off a SCTF a try to break with the CVs? Or should I move all together?


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Attachment (1)

< Message edited by obvert -- 5/16/2012 9:14:38 PM >

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 33
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 5/16/2012 9:17:55 PM   
Erkki


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At least set home base to something else than Paramushiro, or they'll keep refueling all the time and use ops points, and get slowed down even more! Whats the closest island in Japanese control - Marcus?

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 34
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 5/16/2012 9:23:19 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki

At least set home base to something else than Paramushiro, or they'll keep refueling all the time and use ops points, and get slowed down even more! Whats the closest island in Japanese control - Marcus?


Here is the thought. During the night they nearly retreated safely, and if I had set Paramishiro they might have gone NW instead of due West to Truk, which was their home base. This might have kept them from one or more of the SCTFs trying to intercept. I want any retreat to happen to the North, and this is the farthest North I can set. I could change it after a day if, and that is a big if, any make it to open ocean.

Marcus might work though as it's still a bit North of Hawaii.

The AOs are at Marcus and heading NE at mission speed, and in case I need to keep using flank speed for another day they will atmpt an intercept.

< Message edited by obvert -- 5/16/2012 9:24:58 PM >

(in reply to Erkki)
Post #: 35
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 5/16/2012 11:12:49 PM   
sourdust

 

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You know, Nagumo historically expected to lose half his force attacking Pearl Harbor. So this might be the first game to be played out as if his expectations had come true.

It's a sign of just how much Japan underestimated the Allies that they expected win even if they had lost half of KB at Pearl Harbor. The theory was that KB was a one-shot weapon, expendable if it succeeded in taking the US battle fleet out of the equation for a year. This would allow Japan to seize the southern resource area, and Japan expected the Allies to sue for peace after that. How wrong they were...

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 36
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 5/17/2012 1:16:17 AM   
Icedawg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

I thought you had a house rule that limited you to one port strike on turn 1. How is it then that you are hitting both PH and Manila on Dec 7th?



One CV portstrike on turn 1.

Key being CV.

Hope it helps,

Rasmus




Ahh

That was it. I missed the CV part.

Follow up question: Why the distinction? Most HRs I've seen simply say "one port strike" on turn 1.

I guess I'm puzzled by this: why is it okay for Netties from Takao to hit Manila while KB hits Pearl, but KB can't be split into two TFs with one hitting Manila and one hitting Pearl? What does it matter?

(in reply to Walloc)
Post #: 37
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 5/17/2012 1:30:23 AM   
Icedawg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

I thought you had a house rule that limited you to one port strike on turn 1. How is it then that you are hitting both PH and Manila on Dec 7th?



One CV portstrike on turn 1.

Key being CV.

Hope it helps,

Rasmus


Thanks for clarifying that Walloc. Appreciated.

quote:

Also, what was your rationale for making a second strike on PH on Dec 8th? Based on the Dec 7th combat report, you got a result better than any I can remember getting. One BB reported sunk and two or three others probably sinking sounds pretty darn good to me. I know hindsight is 20/20 here, but I definitely would not have stuck around with a day one strike as good as the one you got.


The rationale for a second day at PH is that in my limited experience and in the way I was watching the replay and reading the reports, it didn't seem that I had sufficiently crippled the Allied fleet. That simple. Especially when to go a second day is very common in AE and I had not seen such an all-out move with the US fleet.

If I had followed my instincts and gone around Lihue to 6 hexes West of PH, I would've been in range of the Enterprise TF and numerous SCTFs near Pearl, most likely without any of them contacting me as they were sent East en masse. It would have been a field day. I didn't make this move because it's exactly the path I took in my first game, (also AARed information) and I thought he might expect something similar. My bad. Don't second guess best play.


Yeah, you're correct. Second day strikes seem to be the norm. I also agree, your opponent was pretty gutsy. I never would have been expecting him to be THAT aggressive.

Regarding the viewing of the replay and reading the combat reports, I've fallen into the same trap myself - especially on turn 1. You're watching the replay and it seems like all of your planes are missing - glass half empty kind of thing. To help myself more clearly recall what happens to Battleship Row, I use a table with all of the PH BBs in one column, torpedo hits in another and 800 kg bomb hits in another (I don't really care about 250 kg bomb hits). As the replay unfolds, I simply make an asterisk in the appropriate column for solid, damage-causing hits, a dot for superficial hits and a star for devastating events (magazine explosions). That way, when I look at that combat report, I have a better idea of what happened to each of those BBs.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 38
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 5/17/2012 1:31:07 AM   
Icedawg


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Double Post

Sorry


< Message edited by Icedawg -- 5/17/2012 1:33:47 AM >

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Post #: 39
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 5/17/2012 1:59:04 AM   
PaxMondo


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I would use mission speed for all your ships for at least a few days to get clear, except for the Shokaku.  You're going to have to put her in a separate TF with some DD's and use cruise.  99% chance she is going to sink with that fire, but there is always a lucky roll.  I would send her due north to get clear, and then east ... a long way, but you might evade some search if she floats.  The rest of the KB, once I clear the Midway area, I would slow down to cruise and see how much damage can repair itself while underway.  You have a good chance to repair 1 pt of non-major damage each day ...

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to Icedawg)
Post #: 40
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 5/17/2012 2:03:48 AM   
Dan Nichols


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

I thought you had a house rule that limited you to one port strike on turn 1. How is it then that you are hitting both PH and Manila on Dec 7th?



One CV portstrike on turn 1.

Key being CV.

Hope it helps,

Rasmus




Ahh

That was it. I missed the CV part.

Follow up question: Why the distinction? Most HRs I've seen simply say "one port strike" on turn 1.

I guess I'm puzzled by this: why is it okay for Netties from Takao to hit Manila while KB hits Pearl, but KB can't be split into two TFs with one hitting Manila and one hitting Pearl? What does it matter?



You can split KB and hit both Manilla and PH on turn 1. You would use the DD bombardment TF, it also has the bonus first turn.

(in reply to Icedawg)
Post #: 41
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 5/17/2012 2:10:33 AM   
Dan Nichols


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Going North or Northeast is the obvious direction, but I don't see a lot of other choices. I would invert your CV/BB TF ordering. Have the CVs follow the SCTF, maybe that will allow the BB to engage first. I would expect his CA/CLs to be very low on ammo and they might not engage. The DDs have 50% dud rate torps, so you could easily get lucky.

I would not use night attacks, put all of your usable bombers on Naval attack with a few for Naval Search and hope for the best. I think you will get 3 CVs out to safety, but I have been wrong before.

(in reply to Dan Nichols)
Post #: 42
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 5/17/2012 2:25:36 AM   
Icedawg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan Nichols


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

I thought you had a house rule that limited you to one port strike on turn 1. How is it then that you are hitting both PH and Manila on Dec 7th?



One CV portstrike on turn 1.

Key being CV.

Hope it helps,

Rasmus




Ahh

That was it. I missed the CV part.

Follow up question: Why the distinction? Most HRs I've seen simply say "one port strike" on turn 1.

I guess I'm puzzled by this: why is it okay for Netties from Takao to hit Manila while KB hits Pearl, but KB can't be split into two TFs with one hitting Manila and one hitting Pearl? What does it matter?



You can split KB and hit both Manilla and PH on turn 1. You would use the DD bombardment TF, it also has the bonus first turn.


Yes, I understand the reconfiguring of the * TFs. But my question was about the spirit of the first turn port strike house rule they are using. Most people use a rule like this to prevent surprise at both Pearl Harbor and Manila. The conclusion of most players is that the strike on Pearl would have made a surpirse strike at Manila impossible (whether it be by carrier planes or LBA). So to keep in the spirit of surprise, only one surprise port strike (regardless of source) is generally agreed upon (unless they are relatively close to each other on the map).

In Obvert's game, he hit Pearl with KB and Manila with Netties from Takao. According to his "one CV port strike on turn one" HR, he was perfectly okay.

I was just curious about why they chose "one CV port strike on turn one" as their HR rather than the more common "one port strike on turn one".

(in reply to Dan Nichols)
Post #: 43
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 5/17/2012 3:15:51 AM   
Dan Nichols


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I guess I misread your post. I thought you felt that KB could not hit two targets far apart.

(in reply to Icedawg)
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 5/17/2012 5:31:15 AM   
obvert


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quote:

In Obvert's game, he hit Pearl with KB and Manila with Netties from Takao. According to his "one CV port strike on turn one" HR, he was perfectly okay.

I was just curious about why they chose "one CV port strike on turn one" as their HR rather than the more common "one port strike on turn one".


In reality the US forces were not well prepared in the PI and a lot of planes were hit on the ground with little opposition. Most players make a choice to hit the airfields it seems, but I value hitting the port and trying to knock out a few subs. If it's plausible to hit any target in Asia with first turn rules in place, why not Manila harbor?

(in reply to Dan Nichols)
Post #: 45
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 5/17/2012 5:38:18 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan Nichols

Going North or Northeast is the obvious direction, but I don't see a lot of other choices. I would invert your CV/BB TF ordering. Have the CVs follow the SCTF, maybe that will allow the BB to engage first. I would expect his CA/CLs to be very low on ammo and they might not engage. The DDs have 50% dud rate torps, so you could easily get lucky.

I would not use night attacks, put all of your usable bombers on Naval attack with a few for Naval Search and hope for the best. I think you will get 3 CVs out to safety, but I have been wrong before.


Thanks Dan. Thinking that the SCTF would surely engage, as there are surface forces in the same hex, I thought to have it follow so if it gets 'stuck' in multiple battles, the KB could still move away. But if it is following the SCTF it would stay put and be more vulnerable to surface forces first, and if kept long enough like yesterday, airstrikes could follow.

I've not been in a situation where CVs were engaged so often, even when a few SCTFs were in the area, as they were during yesterday's battles. I'm still thinking they should have been able to run away from the slow BB TF, but that didn't happen.

< Message edited by obvert -- 5/17/2012 5:39:22 AM >

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Post #: 46
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 5/17/2012 5:49:50 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I would use mission speed for all your ships for at least a few days to get clear, except for the Shokaku.  You're going to have to put her in a separate TF with some DD's and use cruise.  99% chance she is going to sink with that fire, but there is always a lucky roll.  I would send her due north to get clear, and then east ... a long way, but you might evade some search if she floats.  The rest of the KB, once I clear the Midway area, I would slow down to cruise and see how much damage can repair itself while underway.  You have a good chance to repair 1 pt of non-major damage each day ...


Zuikaku I think you mean. I feel she's not going to make it and I can't risk tying her to the very few DDs left when I need them with the CVs that are better off and with the SCTF should I keep that arrangement.

I don't know about the gamey-ness of it, and I'm not thinking of doing it for this reason at all, but I feel I have to leave her in a single ship TF and hope she evades search. If faced with the same choice, I think the IJN would have also left her there to save the rest. It would be a minor miracle to get her out and running at 1/3 speed all of the way across the Pacific, and I'm not sure I've that much luck banked up.

For the rest they're running slower than the CA/CLs without damage and surely slower than the DDs. Even though it's a risk, doesn't it seem best to run at flank just for today at least? I could go to cruise after that if they get clear of course, but I'm thinking one day at a time at the moment.

< Message edited by obvert -- 5/17/2012 5:51:33 AM >

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Post #: 47
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 5/17/2012 6:36:39 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

Zuikaku I think you mean. I feel she's not going to make it and I can't risk tying her to the very few DDs left when I need them with the CVs that are better off and with the SCTF should I keep that arrangement.


Make sure you get the picture of the emperor hanging in the state room of the Zuikaku .. that will let the LYB below know whats up ..

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 48
RE: The (KB) Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 5/17/2012 11:46:36 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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The horror...the horror.

Ugh, tough start my friend. I think you were unlucky in terms of getting surprised two surface actions in a row. That definitely came into play and contributed to being unable to evade combat in my opinion.

I hope those 1-2% fires are put out during the repair phase to allow air ops for you. If not the Allies may catch a break if still in strike range during the day.

I'm not sure how I would play this turn either. Part of me wants to tell you to keep everything together. The Allied ships may be low on ammo and attempt to avoid combat, even if they react to you. I think splitting up might allow the Allies a chance to maul you piecemeal. I would definitely abandon CV Zuikaku though.

Have you thought about using the CL and a few DD's as a diversionary force? I'd order them in a direction away from where you want to go and zero reaction in an attempt to draw the enemy SCTF's away from your CV's. Even towards PH, if it means they react away from your CV's.

Note:
Removed the more aggresssive response as I'm not sure I'd risk losing all my CV's in December 41. It will be a long war without them otherwise.

< Message edited by SqzMyLemon -- 5/17/2012 11:56:54 PM >


_____________________________

Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 49
RE: The (KB) Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 5/18/2012 10:30:31 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

The horror...the horror.

Ugh, tough start my friend. I think you were unlucky in terms of getting surprised two surface actions in a row. That definitely came into play and contributed to being unable to evade combat in my opinion.

I hope those 1-2% fires are put out during the repair phase to allow air ops for you. If not the Allies may catch a break if still in strike range during the day.

I'm not sure how I would play this turn either. Part of me wants to tell you to keep everything together. The Allied ships may be low on ammo and attempt to avoid combat, even if they react to you. I think splitting up might allow the Allies a chance to maul you piecemeal. I would definitely abandon CV Zuikaku though.

Have you thought about using the CL and a few DD's as a diversionary force? I'd order them in a direction away from where you want to go and zero reaction in an attempt to draw the enemy SCTF's away from your CV's. Even towards PH, if it means they react away from your CV's.

Note:
Removed the more aggresssive response as I'm not sure I'd risk losing all my CV's in December 41. It will be a long war without them otherwise.


Thanks. Yes, tough but not an entirely unexpected start against this opponent. Once someone gets into your thinking process, (in this case knowing his aggressive tendencies and his interest in researching past games to learn about opponents, then making choices based somewhat on those conditions rather than my own best instincts and ideas) the game can become tenuous. This is a great lesson to learn. This game is so much about psychology. Also, I see this as a challenge. If I lose most or even all of the KB in the first days, can I still give Torsten a tough game and push this into 44-45? Not likely, but it would be amazing to do so.

Economically this will change a lot as well. No need to bank HI, right? LBA will be HEAVILY researched and produced. Mostly very early models. I will add 6-8 Tojo research factories today and some more Helen IIa as well. The A6M3a, Jill and Judy will be bumped up also. I will have to abandon my late war research programs. Too bad.

As for tactics, I've taken these past days to wait, think myself and listen to the thoughts of others about the best play to extricate these fragile beasts from the numerous adjacent predators.

The fires are crucial as they would make things get worse in terms of damage should they remain burning, plus the inhibitions to air ops. I'm thinking I have to take the risk of leaving the CVs at mission speed to try to make sure these do not get out of control and that further damage does not slow the ships to the point they will be caught later in a few days. In the past I've had good luck with CVs avoiding surface combatants, but I'm doubtful of the odds of these numerous TFs not getting through if I leave the TF in one piece. The IJN surface ships have good secondary ammo left, even if the main guns are at slightly less than half.

I still think it best to detach a SCTF to deal with the ships in the same hex now and the two other dangerous TFs with CA/CL in the adjacent hexes. If the SCTF can soak up most of the remaining ammo and then go north, they could make it so that only a few DDs actually have anything left to shoot at the carriers once they are engaged. It'll be another all-out assault.

A diversionary force could work. I guess I see that big SCTF as the diversionary force. In the previous day's combat the CL Abukuma and 2 DD were following the CVs to soak up a few SCTF moves. That proved to not be enough, obviously. But, this TF did get detached from following the CVs after a few attacks. I'm thinking that having more ships in the following SCTF could make it more likely to win each battle and stay with the CVs and therefore shield them from harm. If any CA/CL/DD TF gets into the carriers, with the amount of damage they have, a single hit could mean they all get slowed and taken out throughout the day by the next wave of ships and air strikes.

I have to do this turn today. Please let me now if my thinking seems way off base. I at least want to learn from this, and since I can't become any more humbled than I already am by the situation, any last comments or thoughts will be very welcomed.

< Message edited by obvert -- 5/18/2012 10:34:09 AM >

(in reply to SqzMyLemon)
Post #: 50
RE: The (KB) Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 5/18/2012 10:55:39 AM   
Mike Solli


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Don't make Helen IIa R&D factories. Make them Helen Ia and when they repair, convert them to the IIa. They repair much quicker that way.

_____________________________


Created by the amazing Dixie

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Post #: 51
RE: The (KB) Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 5/18/2012 11:00:14 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Don't make Helen IIa R&D factories. Make them Helen Ia and when they repair, convert them to the IIa. They repair much quicker that way.


Thanks Mike. Yes, this is what I meant.

If it continues long enough to be of interest, this game could be a strange economic and production anomaly. I'll have to completely re-think everything. The philosophy will be all about speed and producing more right now. Plus obviously getting some more CVs accelerated fast.

(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 52
RE: The (KB) Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 5/18/2012 11:21:50 AM   
Cannonfodder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Don't make Helen IIa R&D factories. Make them Helen Ia and when they repair, convert them to the IIa. They repair much quicker that way.


Thanks Mike. Yes, this is what I meant.

If it continues long enough to be of interest, this game could be a strange economic and production anomaly. I'll have to completely re-think everything. The philosophy will be all about speed and producing more right now. Plus obviously getting some more CVs accelerated fast.


You might want to put a large priority on pushing out good torpedo bomber pilots (G3s and G4M pilots).. and perhaps rush the production of the A6M3a...They'll be key as they will give you good escorted punch 15 hexes out of the base you operate them from...

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(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 53
RE: The (KB) Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 5/18/2012 11:26:12 AM   
koniu

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Don't make Helen IIa R&D factories. Make them Helen Ia and when they repair, convert them to the IIa. They repair much quicker that way.


Thanks Mike. Yes, this is what I meant.

If it continues long enough to be of interest, this game could be a strange economic and production anomaly. I'll have to completely re-think everything. The philosophy will be all about speed and producing more right now. Plus obviously getting some more CVs accelerated fast.


Yes it will be.

Even from strategic side. Imagine how it will look in RL. Last turn just prove that all modern navy strategist where wrong and surface fleets with BBs and cruisers still rule seas and CV experiment was wrong (at lest not balance changing). From today all who oppose building CV have advantage an they will forcing governments to build more BBs and CAs but not Carriers :). Instead 32 ordered Essex's US will build 20 new BB and only few CV.

Very interesting scenario


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(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 54
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 5/18/2012 11:42:06 AM   
LoBaron


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obvert, just chiming in to express my deepest respect to continue after this battle outcome.

Your war will be a very interesting what-if scenario.

The first implications that come to mind are:

Any Pacific adventure will be effectively impossible, maybe even including the Aleuthians. You need strong Kuriles IMHO to Counter.
The convoy routes from Japan to any place not located in the DEI ans PI need to accept different routings to enable air protection.
Same applies to IO operations if you even consider them in the current situation.

Good luck! I think I will be watching this war closely.

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All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 55
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 5/18/2012 12:24:10 PM   
ny59giants


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Air HQs - I've had two Japanese players PM me about them losing their parent unit when they include these HQs in invasions. Thus, no torpedoes for each of the HQs for about 45 days until the parent fragment shows up at Tokyo. Supposedly, MichaelM is aware of this issue, but I don't know when a fix will be out. There is no problems if the HQ is landed on a base you already control. Go figure?!?

China - you did well in your other game here. This will need to be the focus again in order to free up some troops for garrison duty sooner.

Good luck and may you get some revenge soon.

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Post #: 56
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 5/18/2012 1:07:54 PM   
obvert


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Thanks for all of the comments.

I agree that edge operations like the Aleutians are most likely out of the picture now. The Kuriles will get a lot of attention! Maybe from both sides.

Also, unfortunately I'll have to test my abilities in a land war in China again and try to make significant gains there. This will also mean a big IJAAF commitment. Not what I wanted this time, but that's why strategy before the game isn't all that useful, is it?

SRA first, establishing good LBA, Chinese offensives, Burma, and getting at least something South of Truk to stall an Allied advance in So Pac. If a few CVs make it this should be possible. If none make it So Pac will be trouble for sure.

Ok. So now I really need to forget about what's next and do this turn. It's hard to focus on the DEI and PI now while the drama in the Pacific unfolds, but i'll have to bare down and make sure I don't leave anything else hanging in the wind if I can help it. He'll be balls to the wall now I'm sure, willing to sacrifice any surface forces for a chance to slow things down.

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 57
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 5/18/2012 3:02:05 PM   
obvert


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The next turn has been sent. Now we'll see if my fingernails and navy will last through the night.

Either way, it should be a fun-filled replay for one of us!

PS - I'll have to wait a bit for the turn most likely. This game is lower on the priority scale than several others Torsten is playing.

< Message edited by obvert -- 5/18/2012 8:22:25 PM >

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 58
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 5/19/2012 12:45:49 PM   
PaxMondo


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As a counter to LoBaron, I would really try to take Adak now while you can.

Great tripwire to any Northern adventure by your opponent.  And with this game, that has to be a major concern now.  Given how the naval air power is looking in this game, as the allies, I would be prepping for a Northern axis of attack beginning mid '43.  Adak (as a lvl 8 port) becomes a key staging point to minimize disruption of the allied landing forces going into the Kuriles and Hokkaido.

If you are going to get into a slugfest, that location is far preferred by you as opposed to Solomons or elsewhere.  Closer for you to support.  If you can get it and develop it, it becomes  a pretty strong base that the allies will struggle to take until late '42.  Also, helps you develolp the kuriles and hokkaido defense infrastructure as you fight up there.

You've got troops that you can use now.  The allies don't have much to go there.

The second axis for me would be China.  You really have to be successful there to free up those LCU's.  You're going to need all those Independent brigades as island garrison forces soon.

Buy out all those air groups you just lost ASAP.  you need them as land based naval air groups, especailly the Zero's.  If you are PDU on, they should be able to upgrade to George after they upgrade to A6M5 ... the Val and Kate groups are what you will need to counter any amphib operation in the Burma area behind your MLD.

Keep going!!!  Banzai!!!



PS: I think this will become a great AAR. I have always beleived that the IJ did themselves a real disservice hiding their Midway losses and not adapting their strategy hardly at all. Go read StoneAge's AAR. He had a similar disaster (actually worse IIRC, albeit not on Dec 8) and was able to get quite deep into '45 effectively in his game.

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 5/19/2012 12:50:47 PM >


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(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 59
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 5/20/2012 7:02:55 AM   
obvert


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From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

As a counter to LoBaron, I would really try to take Adak now while you can.

Great tripwire to any Northern adventure by your opponent.  And with this game, that has to be a major concern now.  Given how the naval air power is looking in this game, as the allies, I would be prepping for a Northern axis of attack beginning mid '43.  Adak (as a lvl 8 port) becomes a key staging point to minimize disruption of the allied landing forces going into the Kuriles and Hokkaido.

If you are going to get into a slugfest, that location is far preferred by you as opposed to Solomons or elsewhere.  Closer for you to support.  If you can get it and develop it, it becomes  a pretty strong base that the allies will struggle to take until late '42.  Also, helps you develolp the kuriles and hokkaido defense infrastructure as you fight up there.

You've got troops that you can use now.  The allies don't have much to go there.

The second axis for me would be China.  You really have to be successful there to free up those LCU's.  You're going to need all those Independent brigades as island garrison forces soon.

Buy out all those air groups you just lost ASAP.  you need them as land based naval air groups, especailly the Zero's.  If you are PDU on, they should be able to upgrade to George after they upgrade to A6M5 ... the Val and Kate groups are what you will need to counter any amphib operation in the Burma area behind your MLD.

Keep going!!!  Banzai!!!



PS: I think this will become a great AAR. I have always beleived that the IJ did themselves a real disservice hiding their Midway losses and not adapting their strategy hardly at all. Go read StoneAge's AAR. He had a similar disaster (actually worse IIRC, albeit not on Dec 8) and was able to get quite deep into '45 effectively in his game.


Thanks for all of the advice Pax. It really is a mental shift, but I have to keep reminding myself that there are possibilities out there.

Interesting thought about Adak. I had thought just to get the Kuriles solid, but you make a good point about denying that as a staging point for the Allies. After the next few turns decide my fate on the seas, I'll assess what is left and what seems possible.

China will be important. He'll have access to a lot I did last time that worked, but I hope to do it differently and more efficiently having gone through the process already. Upgrading 1E to 2E groups and buying armor will take most of my PPs early after I get the KB air wings back. Training will be paramount after losing that many good pilots as well.

I just bought two of the KB zero groups back, and as I can afford them I'll buy the rest. It looks like PPs are going to be even more precious in this one.

One thought about the Kuriles. When are kamis activated if they are invaded?

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 60
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