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OT: Hitler and Yamamoto...

 
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OT: Hitler and Yamamoto... - 5/10/2012 4:32:24 AM   
Footslogger

 

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Did Berlin know about the attack on Pearl Harbor, prior before it happened?
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RE: OT: Hitler and Yamamoto... - 5/10/2012 5:09:05 AM   
wdolson

 

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They were notified that Japan was going to open hostilities with the West.

The night after PH Roosevelt was pondering how to spin it to get the US into the European war. Hitler solved his dilemma the next day by declaring war on the US, so Germany was in the loop.

Germany was clued in enough about Japanese plans that the Soviet spy in the German embassy Richard Sorge (he was a German journalist based in Tokyo) clued in Stalin in early November 1941 that the Japanese were going to attack the UK and US and not Russia. This allowed Stalin to transfer enough troops to Moscow to turn the tide at the critical time. Sorge knew about it because the Japanese had informed the Germans of the plan.

I'm not sure the Japanese told the Germans they were going to attack PH, but the Germans knew the general plan of Japanese hostilities.

Bill

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RE: OT: Hitler and Yamamoto... - 5/10/2012 5:12:52 AM   
geofflambert


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Please excuse my nonsense, a little too much wine

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 5/12/2012 3:23:15 AM >

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RE: OT: Hitler and Yamamoto... - 5/10/2012 5:17:35 AM   
geofflambert


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Sorry, my inner Troll is coming out.

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RE: OT: Hitler and Yamamoto... - 5/10/2012 8:34:01 AM   
Historiker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Did Berlin know about the attack on Pearl Harbor, prior before it happened?

not at all!
In fact, Germany had hoped that the US will strike first.

In Juli 41, Hitler had talked to Oshima and was convinced, that Japan will attack Russia from the east.
Erich Raedar noted on 8/22/41, that Hitler was convinced that Japan will join the war against Russia with an attack on Vladivostok.
When Tojo came to power on 10/18/41, it seemed obvious that negotiations between Japan and USA will be futile. Still, Hitler was sceptic and saw the new Japanese government as a bluff for the negotiations.
11/6/41 Hitler convinced Goebbels that Japan wouldn't enter the war
In November, both Navy and Army seeked contact with Germany to ask whether Germany would agree not to make peace by itself in case that Japan enters the war.
While von Weizäcker wrote on 11/23 that the differences between J and the US are too big, he also noted that Japan doesn't tell anything about how the negociations proceed. Goebbels wrote that Japan and Tojo show a lack of fighting spiriti. "There isn't any sign that the Japanese are willing to enter the war"
After the US ultimatuum, Germany assured Japan on 11/30/41 that it will stand besides Japan in case of war. von Ribbentropptold Oshima that Germany recommends an immediate declaration of war by Japan against the US.
Halder wasn't informed before 12/6/41 that war between J and the US is imminent.

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RE: OT: Hitler and Yamamoto... - 5/10/2012 2:32:59 PM   
goatan

 

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From what i have read and heard Hitler was actually annoyed at the Japanese for PH. Hitler, who had previously declared the Japanese "Honorary Aryans" claimed that this is what happens when your allies are not Anglo-Saxons.
I think he felt it was far to soon the last thing he wanted at that time was for America to directly enter the war. Also as wdolson mentioned it meant the Russians could redeploy troops against Germany again something Hitler would not have wanted. PH probably did more to harm the Axis chances of victory than any single event. If the Japanese had held of for a year or so things might have been different, probably a much tougher struggle for the allies.

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RE: OT: Hitler and Yamamoto... - 5/10/2012 2:47:42 PM   
castor troy


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Russia would have redeployed those troops to fight the German no matter what. Or does anybody think they would have preferred losing in the West for the risk of Japan taking some areas in the furthest East? Now I am not sure if redeploying those troops to the "West" front was the war winner but it sure has helped a lot at that time.

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RE: OT: Hitler and Yamamoto... - 5/10/2012 3:24:08 PM   
Uncivil Engineer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: goatan

From what i have read and heard Hitler was actually annoyed at the Japanese for PH. Hitler, who had previously declared the Japanese "Honorary Aryans" claimed that this is what happens when your allies are not Anglo-Saxons.
I think he felt it was far to soon the last thing he wanted at that time was for America to directly enter the war. Also as wdolson mentioned it meant the Russians could redeploy troops against Germany again something Hitler would not have wanted. PH probably did more to harm the Axis chances of victory than any single event. If the Japanese had held of for a year or so things might have been different, probably a much tougher struggle for the allies.

Not likely. With another year of prep time and more intel from the broken IJN codes, it's possible that a delayed Pearl Harbor could have been a replay of the original Midway. A one year delay would likely help the US more than the Japanese, IMO.

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RE: OT: Hitler and Yamamoto... - 5/10/2012 3:31:36 PM   
Historiker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Uncivil Engineer


quote:

ORIGINAL: goatan

From what i have read and heard Hitler was actually annoyed at the Japanese for PH. Hitler, who had previously declared the Japanese "Honorary Aryans" claimed that this is what happens when your allies are not Anglo-Saxons.
I think he felt it was far to soon the last thing he wanted at that time was for America to directly enter the war. Also as wdolson mentioned it meant the Russians could redeploy troops against Germany again something Hitler would not have wanted. PH probably did more to harm the Axis chances of victory than any single event. If the Japanese had held of for a year or so things might have been different, probably a much tougher struggle for the allies.

Not likely. With another year of prep time and more intel from the broken IJN codes, it's possible that a delayed Pearl Harbor could have been a replay of the original Midway. A one year delay would likely help the US more than the Japanese, IMO.

A year more in preparation would've ment a signficantly better prepared PI and DEI, as well as a propably better prepared British Empire.
Also: The Essex CVs start coming.

Not really something I want to face if I want to have naval superiority and conquer the SRA.

No, Japan felt it had a window of opportunity that was closing fast.

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RE: OT: Hitler and Yamamoto... - 5/10/2012 3:40:14 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Uncivil Engineer

quote:

ORIGINAL: goatan

From what i have read and heard Hitler was actually annoyed at the Japanese for PH. Hitler, who had previously declared the Japanese "Honorary Aryans" claimed that this is what happens when your allies are not Anglo-Saxons.
I think he felt it was far to soon the last thing he wanted at that time was for America to directly enter the war. Also as wdolson mentioned it meant the Russians could redeploy troops against Germany again something Hitler would not have wanted. PH probably did more to harm the Axis chances of victory than any single event. If the Japanese had held of for a year or so things might have been different, probably a much tougher struggle for the allies.

Not likely. With another year of prep time and more intel from the broken IJN codes, it's possible that a delayed Pearl Harbor could have been a replay of the original Midway. A one year delay would likely help the US more than the Japanese, IMO.


Once the US embargoed OIL, the Japanese were on a downward slope. Their stockpiles started to dwindle and they could easily calculate the point at which a war of expansion to the South and East would become impossible. They might still have attacked Russia..., but Russia didn't offer the resources they so desperately needed. For the Japs it was basically "Go now.., or give up"!

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RE: OT: Hitler and Yamamoto... - 5/10/2012 4:20:18 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Did Berlin know about the attack on Pearl Harbor, prior before it happened?


no, not specifically. However Hitler was already convinced that 'all continental European problems' had to be solved by 1941 because he felt that from 1942 onward the U.S. would be in a position to intervene. German leaders sensed that Japanese action was imminent but according to Goebbels, they were taken by suprise by the "bold attack" on America's key Pacific base.

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RE: OT: Hitler and Yamamoto... - 5/10/2012 4:27:47 PM   
koontz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: goatan

From what i have read and heard Hitler was actually annoyed at the Japanese for PH. Hitler, who had previously declared the Japanese "Honorary Aryans" claimed that this is what happens when your allies are not Anglo-Saxons.
I think he felt it was far to soon the last thing he wanted at that time was for America to directly enter the war. Also as wdolson mentioned it meant the Russians could redeploy troops against Germany again something Hitler would not have wanted. PH probably did more to harm the Axis chances of victory than any single event. If the Japanese had held of for a year or so things might have been different, probably a much tougher struggle for the allies.


First of all the oil shortage for Japan would been alot worse.
And a few more USN CVs and better planes and better pilots.

And why would the Empire of Japan take to account if Hitler was annoyed? why should the Japanese care of what any "Untermenschen" leader would say?

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RE: OT: Hitler and Yamamoto... - 5/10/2012 5:33:37 PM   
ilovestrategy


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I remember reading somewhere that Hitler actually had to look on a map to see exactly where PH was. Too many years ago, my memory of that may be faulty.

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RE: OT: Hitler and Yamamoto... - 5/10/2012 5:41:50 PM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

From what i have read and heard Hitler was actually annoyed at the Japanese for PH. Hitler, who had previously declared the Japanese "Honorary Aryans" claimed that this is what happens when your allies are not Anglo-Saxons.


The Onion: Our Dumb Century has a really great headline for that.

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RE: OT: Hitler and Yamamoto... - 5/10/2012 9:25:06 PM   
Empire101


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Uncivil Engineer

quote:

ORIGINAL: goatan

From what i have read and heard Hitler was actually annoyed at the Japanese for PH. Hitler, who had previously declared the Japanese "Honorary Aryans" claimed that this is what happens when your allies are not Anglo-Saxons.
I think he felt it was far to soon the last thing he wanted at that time was for America to directly enter the war. Also as wdolson mentioned it meant the Russians could redeploy troops against Germany again something Hitler would not have wanted. PH probably did more to harm the Axis chances of victory than any single event. If the Japanese had held of for a year or so things might have been different, probably a much tougher struggle for the allies.

Not likely. With another year of prep time and more intel from the broken IJN codes, it's possible that a delayed Pearl Harbor could have been a replay of the original Midway. A one year delay would likely help the US more than the Japanese, IMO.


Once the US embargoed OIL, the Japanese were on a downward slope. Their stockpiles started to dwindle and they could easily calculate the point at which a war of expansion to the South and East would become impossible. They might still have attacked Russia..., but Russia didn't offer the resources they so desperately needed. For the Japs it was basically "Go now.., or give up"!


The oil embargo was the final straw for Japan as mike has pointed out. By the autumn of 41 the time for intervention against the Soviet Union had passed, and the Army fell into line with the Navy's way of thinking.
Japan had also received two drubbings from the Russians in the late 30's.

One of the major reasons why Hitler supported his allies and declared war on the USA was to get the jump on US shipping in the North Atlantic.....the U-Boats second 'happy time'.

Hitler had envisaged a Grand Strategy of crushing the Soviets from both East and West, but it never got any further than his fevered imagination.




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RE: OT: Hitler and Yamamoto... - 5/10/2012 10:30:51 PM   
John 3rd


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I am slugging my way through Nomonhon: 1939 right now and it is pretty interesting to read. I had no idea of the scale and scope of the hostilities between USSR and Japan nor did I have a clue as to how Stalin really used those events to his benefit in 1939.

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RE: OT: Hitler and Yamamoto... - 5/10/2012 11:16:56 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

I remember reading somewhere that Hitler actually had to look on a map to see exactly where PH was. Too many years ago, my memory of that may be faulty.
Warspite1

Most American teenagers need to do that nowadays too

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RE: OT: Hitler and Yamamoto... - 5/11/2012 12:21:10 AM   
wdolson

 

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I think most American adults would need to look too. On average, Americans are terrible at Geography.

The Germans did take advantage of the US being brought into the war to move many u-boats within US continental waters. What ASW ships the US had were out in the middle of the Atlantic, leaving the coast undefended. With no blackouts in US cities, the u-boats preyed on tankers traveling from Texas up to Nova Scotia and sank many of them.

The Germans knew that oil was a critical need in England and their goal was to sink enough tankers right after the US's entry to force the UK out of the war. They did a lot of damage, but ultimately failed in that goal.

I agree with the others who have said that late 41 or early 42 was the only window of opportunity for the Japanese. The DEI was fortifying and replacing all their aging aircraft with new planes from the US, McArthur was making some progress fortifying Luzon, and the Japanese knew the US was undergoing a massive naval build up. The gun club running the IJN probably wasn't too concerned about the new Essex class carriers due for 1943, but there were several fast battleships due in 1942. By the end of 1942 the US was going to have significantly more BBs than Japan with about 1/3 of them being brand new, fast BBs. As it turned out they were mostly a waste of steel, but few knew that in 1941.

Japan's only hope was to hit the Allies hard before they had a chance to strengthen their defenses and before the oil ran out. I believe they had enough oil stockpiled to last about 8 months in December 1941.

Bill

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RE: OT: Hitler and Yamamoto... - 5/11/2012 7:35:08 AM   
castor troy


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Though one has to remember that the Kriegsmarine only had a whopping 5 Type IX Uboote starting Paukenschlag. IIRC Dönitz wanted to have a dozen but he received only 6 with one not being operational so only 5 left from French Uboot bunkers. Roughly halve a dozen ships were sunk by those 5 subs. Mostly tankers though as the skippers had orders to save their torpedos for high value targets.

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RE: OT: Hitler and Yamamoto... - 5/11/2012 8:31:45 AM   
ilovestrategy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

I remember reading somewhere that Hitler actually had to look on a map to see exactly where PH was. Too many years ago, my memory of that may be faulty.
Warspite1

Most American teenagers need to do that nowadays too



I wish I could debate that but you are 100% right.

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RE: OT: Hitler and Yamamoto... - 5/11/2012 10:52:43 AM   
mullk

 

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Something else to keep in mind is that just because someone knows something in general doesn't guarantee that the finest details are known. I have known some folks who thought that because the U.S. knew war was coming with Japan that she knew of the 6 carriers bearing down on Pearl Harbor from the North.

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