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RE: German army infantry divisions

 
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RE: German army infantry divisions - 5/10/2012 11:45:22 PM   
rogo727


Posts: 925
Joined: 7/12/2011
From: Iowa
Status: online 		2nd Panzer Division Tour Of Duty;
Austria 1938
Poland 1939
Luxembourg 1940
Southern Belguim 1940
Northern France 1940
Balkans 1941
Greece 1941 (took Athens)
Russia 1941-1944
France 1944
Germany 1945

Surrendered to the Americans May 8th 1945

Commanders of the 2nd Panzer Division
Colonel Heinz Guderian 10-1-1935
Major General Rudolf Veil 3-1-1938
colonel Vollrath Luebbe 1-16-1942 Major General this time 9-5-1942
Major General Baron Hans-Karl von Esebeck 2-17-1942
Major General Arno von Lenski 6-1-1942
Colonel Karl Fabiunke 8-20-1942
Lt General Baron Heinrich von Luettwitz 2-1-1944
Colonel Count Eberhard von Nostitz 9-1-1944
Major General Henning Schoenfeld 9-5-1944
Major General Meinrad von Lauchert 12-12-1944
Colonel Oskar Munzel 3-20-1945
Colonel Heinrich-Wilhelm Stollbrock 4-4-1945-5-8-1945

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"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943

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Post #: 31
RE: German army infantry divisions - 5/11/2012 12:14:05 AM   
Dave Briggs


Posts: 1150
Joined: 1/20/2002
Status: offline 		Here's a great site that shows TOE's using Panzerblitz counters. It's still a work in progress so not all sections are done.
http://gregpanzerblitz.com/poland39/1stPanzerSeptember1939.pdf

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Post #: 32
RE: German army infantry divisions - 5/11/2012 1:48:04 AM   
rogo727


Posts: 925
Joined: 7/12/2011
From: Iowa
Status: online 		One of the best sources of the German Panzer Divisions in WW2. Thank you Orm for taking the time to tell me how to do this, that is upload a pic.




Attachment (1)

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"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943

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Post #: 33
RE: German army infantry divisions - 5/11/2012 1:57:34 AM   
rogo727


Posts: 925
Joined: 7/12/2011
From: Iowa
Status: online 		Wehrkreise is critical to an understanding of how the German Military system worked in World War 2. It functioned so smoothly and so unspectacularly that it has generally gone unnoticed by historians, but without it Hitler could never have won his victories. Also without it the Germans never could have waged war for six years without it.

< Message edited by rogo727 -- 5/11/2012 1:58:04 AM >

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"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943

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Post #: 34
RE: German army infantry divisions - 5/11/2012 3:02:10 AM   
parusski


Posts: 4468
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

One of the best sources of the German Panzer Divisions in WW2. Thank you Orm for taking the time to tell me how to do this, that is upload a pic.





I love Stackpole books(WW2 and Civil War).

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Post #: 35
RE: German army infantry divisions - 5/11/2012 3:40:29 AM   
Lieste

 

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Joined: 11/1/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

PzKw III's main battle tank up to end of 1942.


Well... heaviest (armour) maybe...

The main 'tank' would have been the PzIb in Poland, PzIIC in France, with Pz35t and Pz38t also in large numbers. Relatively few PzIIIF, even fewer PzIIIE. Limited numbers of tank-support tanks PzIVC and D. Only a few StuGIIA.

By Barbarossa... still a lot of PzII (light) and Pz38 (medium) tanks. PzIIIG the 'new' model, and some retrofitting of 5cmL42 guns was underway in addition to new built tanks, numbers still not significantly above the Pz35/38t. PzIVE still in small proportion. More and heavier StuG models.

PzIII was usually more heavily armoured than contemporary PzIV models, but their guns were consistently lighter or weaker - initially the aim was anti-tank work, for which the 3.7cm gun was inadequate (worse than that in the Pz38t). The 5cm was an improvement, but not enough compared to the worst of what they had to fight, and even the longer version was barely adequate. The turret was too small to take the anti-tank/general purpose versions of the 7.5cm KwK, so it was finally adapated to take discarded 7.5cm StuK/KwK37 (L24) guns taken from early StuG and PzIV.
The PzIV was just big enough to use the KwK40, so could be upgraded further, but the suspension and transmission prevented large increases in protection weight, and the longer gun unbalanced the turret, requiring less protection on the front that would have been preferred or was available to the late PzIII.

< Message edited by Lieste -- 5/11/2012 3:41:38 AM >

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Post #: 36
RE: German army infantry divisions - 5/11/2012 3:58:45 AM   
rogo727


Posts: 925
Joined: 7/12/2011
From: Iowa
Status: online 		By the end of 1942 they only had 18 pzIII's. And your right at the start of Barbarossa Pz II out numbered in all other tanks in this division.

< Message edited by rogo727 -- 5/11/2012 4:01:36 AM >

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"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943

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Post #: 37
RE: German army infantry divisions - 5/11/2012 3:28:22 PM   
chijohnaok


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From: Florida, USA (formerly Chicago)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jaysmith

webwinkel beginnen Lab staat voor professionele web winkels. Laat uw webshop bouwen door Webshop Lab! Maak gebruik van de onze ervaring en kennis op web winkel gebied.


You've hit the big time when your thread gets spammed.
Extra points since the spam is in a foreign language (Dutch? Or a similar language?).

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Post #: 38
RE: German army infantry divisions - 5/11/2012 5:25:37 PM   
rogo727


Posts: 925
Joined: 7/12/2011
From: Iowa
Status: online 		There are only two things I can't stand in this world. The first is people who can't tolerate other peoples cultures and the second is the Dutch.....Austin Powers.

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"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943

(in reply to chijohnaok)
Post #: 39
RE: German army infantry divisions - 5/11/2012 5:32:30 PM   
warspite1


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From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

There are only two things I can't stand in this world. The first is people who can't tolerate other peoples cultures and the second is the Dutch.....Austin Powers.
Warspite1



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Post #: 40
RE: German army infantry divisions - 5/12/2012 2:42:17 AM   
rogo727


Posts: 925
Joined: 7/12/2011
From: Iowa
Status: online 		I just noticed I got my second star.
3rd Panzer Division
Formed. October 15th, 1935
Home Station: Berlin wehrkeise III
Composition;
6th panzer Reg
3rd Panzer Grenadier Reg
394th Panzer Grenadier Reg
75th Panzer Artilley Reg
3rd Motorcyle Bat
543rd Tank Desrtoyer Bat
3rd Panzer Reconnaissance Bat
39th Panzer Engineer Bat
39th Panzer Signal Bat
314th Army Flak Bat

Known as the "Bear Division".



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"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943

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Post #: 41
RE: German army infantry divisions - 5/12/2012 3:04:35 AM   
parusski


Posts: 4468
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: offline
quote:

here are only two things I can't stand in this world. The first is people who can't tolerate other peoples cultures


Well thank God your tolerance can't be questioned.

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Post #: 42
RE: German army infantry divisions - 5/12/2012 3:22:18 AM   
rogo727


Posts: 925
Joined: 7/12/2011
From: Iowa
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski

quote:

here are only two things I can't stand in this world. The first is people who can't tolerate other peoples cultures


Well thank God your tolerance can't be questioned.

Never in doubt.

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"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943

(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 43
RE: German army infantry divisions - 5/14/2012 9:36:58 PM   
nate25


Posts: 1239
Joined: 9/20/2011
From: Middletown Ohio
Status: offline 		Got a couple days catching up to do, Rogo!

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Post #: 44
RE: German army infantry divisions - 7/12/2012 2:00:48 PM   
Treale


Posts: 1052
Joined: 8/10/2003
From: Central Florida
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: nate25

If he does every div in the Wehrmacht (Heer, SS, Luftwaffe, Kreigsmarine, etc.), this will easily be the longest thread ever.

You heard it here first.


Maybe he should start a separate thread for each division? Give the thread the title of the division so you can reference it easily?

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Tony

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Post #: 45
RE: German army infantry divisions - 7/12/2012 3:56:24 PM   
TulliusDetritus

 

Posts: 3810
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From: Back to Reality :(
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Treale

Maybe he should start a separate thread for each division? Give the thread the title of the division so you can reference it easily?


LOL

Fight fire with fire aka emulate the spammmmmers!

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Post #: 46
RE: German army infantry divisions - 7/12/2012 3:57:04 PM   
radic202

 

Posts: 211
Joined: 6/7/2012
Status: offline

This is so awesome and educational, please keep up with this great info. Much appreciated!

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Post #: 47
RE: German army infantry divisions - 7/12/2012 11:22:16 PM   
ilovestrategy


Posts: 3628
Joined: 6/11/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline 		I'm trying to picture myself in one of those divisions that broke away from the Russians to surrender to the Americans. I bet every German in those divisions needed a cold beer after that.

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Post #: 48
RE: German army infantry divisions - 7/12/2012 11:40:53 PM   
british exil


Posts: 1254
Joined: 5/4/2006
From: Lower Saxony Germany
Status: offline 		I met one ex_Wehrmacht officer who escaped fate. He was a member of Groß Deutschland and after many battles in the East was reforming in the western sector of Germany. Thus he was able to surrender to the english.

The father of my former boss was not so fortunate, treking towards the west from the east. He saw the US GI's manning a checkpoint, the war was over by this time, he saw the barrier go down 5 men before him. Those standing in front of the barrier, from his standpoint, were to turn 180 degrees and start marching east. He did return, in the 1950's, can't remember excate date, he just considered himself unlucky to be sent east but lucky to return. The GI's manning the checkpoint had their orders to close the checkpoint, they know what was in store for the POW's. I bet they felt bad about what they had to do.


Mat

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Post #: 49
RE: German army infantry divisions - 7/13/2012 12:36:42 AM   
radic202

 

Posts: 211
Joined: 6/7/2012
Status: offline 		Hope this is not out of context here but I found this on the net the other while looking something up:

Direct link to webpage: http://www.worldwar2database.com/html/germanysurrender.htm

This is at the bottom of the page:

quote:

Meanwhile, Army Group B, the last major German unit, surrendered its 200,000 men in the south on April 24. Everywhere, German soldiers were trying to get refugees out of the way of the advancing Red Army and to surrender to the Western Allies. Many of these men were simply rounded up and turned over to the Soviets. Close to 2,000,000 German troops were imprisoned by the Soviets in the closing weeks of the war. Most of them spent as much as a decade in Soviet Gulags.


My question here: Why was there so many German Soldiers left alive (200k here) in that Army Group that late in the Campaign, and why the heck would they have been turned over to the Red Army after surrendering directly to the allies. I am not a WW2 expert like most of you in here, would appreciate some feedback please. )(just want to learn more form you all)

< Message edited by radic202 -- 7/13/2012 1:22:20 AM >

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Post #: 50
RE: German army infantry divisions - 7/13/2012 1:09:51 AM   
Lieste

 

Posts: 1608
Joined: 11/1/2008
Status: offline 		Huh? A division is an element of an army, which itself is an element of an army group.

200,000 seems to still be fairly strong in terms of numbers for one Army group in May 1945, but I suspect some are LOC troops and other non-front-line troops... This is around 15-20 division equivalents (somewhat less once LOC personnel are included).

The 2,000,000 (ie. 10x as many) are different troops trapped between the Soviet and Western Allied forces. 'Rounded up and handed over' is probably a bit harsh - more fair is that after a certain point the frontier was sealed to military personnel and they were turned back from checkpoints. Again, I suspect most are under uniform, but not actually front-line branches of service - many of these were either overwhelmed in the East, or had earlier opportunity to surrender in the West. A proportion were able to break free in the East and retreat onto the US and Commonwealth Forces, but I strongly doubt that armed, organised bodies of troops in those numbers still existed in Germany's forces at that time...

< Message edited by Lieste -- 7/13/2012 1:10:00 AM >

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Post #: 51
RE: German army infantry divisions - 7/13/2012 1:22:26 AM   
radic202

 

Posts: 211
Joined: 6/7/2012
Status: offline
Oops I meant Army not Division, sorry my bad:
and will be edited and corrected in original post.

quote:


My question here: Why was there so many German Soldiers left alive (200k here) in that Division that late in the Campaign, and why the heck would they have been turned over to the Red Army after surrendering directly to the allies. I am not a WW2 expert like most of you in here, would appreciate some feedback please. )(just want to learn more form you all)


I appreciate the response, still find it hard to understand that such a large force would still have been left intact enough to surrender so late in the game? And could you please explain LOC for me and lastly would there have been any SS Units left in that Army Group as they would more then likely would have been the preferred of the Red Army as Prisoners if turned over to them by the Allies.

And of course sorry to OP, I do not want to train wreck this thread.


< Message edited by radic202 -- 7/13/2012 1:23:10 AM >

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Post #: 52
RE: German army infantry divisions - 7/13/2012 1:33:52 AM   
Lieste

 

Posts: 1608
Joined: 11/1/2008
Status: offline 		LOC = Line of communication. Those troops not in combat services ~ signals, HQ, supply, transport, medical, veterinary, maintenance, post-office, police, construction engineer etc...

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Post #: 53
RE: German army infantry divisions - 7/13/2012 1:35:34 AM   
radic202

 

Posts: 211
Joined: 6/7/2012
Status: offline 		Of course, stupid me! Thanks for that clarification.

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Post #: 54
RE: German army infantry divisions - 7/13/2012 9:08:36 AM   
british exil


Posts: 1254
Joined: 5/4/2006
From: Lower Saxony Germany
Status: offline 		I also think that Stalin was questioning the western allies intents. He feared that they would use the German Pow to fight against the soviets with the forces the western allies had. By guaranteeing the the number of Pow's the western powers had to give to the Soviets, this reasoning could be stifled.

Mat

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Post #: 55
RE: German army infantry divisions - 7/14/2012 3:51:37 PM   
Empire101


Posts: 1896
Joined: 5/20/2008
From: Coruscant
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: nate25


quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

quote:

ORIGINAL: nate25


quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

1st Panzer Division
Home Station: Weimar, Wehrkries IX
Compostition:
1st Panzer Regiment
1st Panzer Grenadier Reg
113th Panzer Grenadier Reg
73rd Panzer Artillery Reg
1st Motorcycle Battalion
4th Panzer Reconnaissance Bat
37th Tank Destroyer Bat
37th Panzer Engineer Bat
37th Panzer Signal Bat
299th Army Flak Bat



Formed 27.9.35

Also interesting to note the panzer regiment had 4 battalions upon formation, not the usual two we think of.


It was used to form other Panzer Divisions later on. Each year form 1936 on each Panzer Regiment of the 1st had to provide two to four tank companies to the 7th, 8th,15th.35th, and 36th tank regiments.


This is true, but 1. thru 5. and 10. were formed the same way. There was a lot of experimentation going on prewar.

Warspite1

Wasn't this all to do with the dilution of strength in order to put more divisions in the field? I think (though its a looong time ago that I read it) that in 1940 for the attack on France the average no. of tanks per division was 300. By the time of Barbarossa it was less than 200.



I think you are right Warspite, for Barbarossa Panzer Division TOE's were virtually halved to double the amount of Panzer Divisions available for the invasion


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Post #: 56
RE: German army infantry divisions - 7/14/2012 5:11:22 PM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 2534
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		In regard to the PoW discussion. I'd take a look at Dr Per Rüdigers Overmans scholary study of german WWII casulties. A table of living PoWs taken by the 2 different sides are provided about 1/3 down the page of the link. Since its only living PoWs its not the same as PoWs taken. Still it should give some context to some of the figurs noted in this thread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_casualties_in_World_War_II

Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 7/14/2012 5:23:46 PM >

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Post #: 57
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