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Japanese strategic bombing - 5/7/2012 1:24:10 PM   
Olorin


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Ok, here is my problem.
I set my Helens on city attack orders. Target is Corunna Downs, the dot base just south of Port Hedland, containing 100 resource centers. No enemy fighters to oppose my 100 Helens, which are flying at 6000ft.
Result? No hits whatsoever. My question is...why?

I tried another attack on Colombo's 40 light industry, under similar conditions, again achieving nothing at all.

Curiously, when I attacked Calcutta's heavy industry, Helens were very effective, destroying 600 HI centers in a few days.

Can anyone explain this strange behavior?

EDIT:
NO SDHUNDT! Steven, bugger off!

< Message edited by Olorin -- 5/9/2012 1:41:44 PM >


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RE: Japanese strategic bombing - 5/7/2012 1:27:01 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Olorin

Ok, here is my problem.
I set my Helens on city attack orders. Target is Corunna Downs, the dot base just south of Port Hedland, containing 100 resource centers. No enemy fighters to oppose my 100 Helens, which are flying at 6000ft.
Result? No hits whatsoever. My question is...why?

I tried another attack on Colombo's 40 light industry, under similar conditions, again achieving nothing at all.

Curiously, when I attacked Calcutta's heavy industry, Helens were very effective, destroying 600 HI centers in a few days.

Can anyone explain this strange behavior?


Did you recon first? What was the weather? What was the ground bombing skill level of the pilots?

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RE: Japanese strategic bombing - 5/7/2012 1:43:16 PM   
Olorin


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Yes, I reconed.
The weather was clear in the first day, overcast in the second.
Average ground attack skill lvl was 70+.

I think all factors favored my bombers. I think they should have obliterated the enemy bases, but for some reason, they didn't.

I forgot to ask the most important question in the OP...
In the hypothetical scenario of Japan conquering most of Australia, north of the trigger line, and thus being in range to attack Australian industry, do you think Japan could achieve decisive results, in terms of victory points earned by disabling or destroying industrial centers?

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RE: Japanese strategic bombing - 5/7/2012 1:57:02 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Olorin

Yes, I reconed.
The weather was clear in the first day, overcast in the second.
Average ground attack skill lvl was 70+.

I think all factors favored my bombers. I think they should have obliterated the enemy bases, but for some reason, they didn't.

I forgot to ask the most important question in the OP...
In the hypothetical scenario of Japan conquering most of Australia, north of the trigger line, and thus being in range to attack Australian industry, do you think Japan could achieve decisive results, in terms of victory points earned by disabling or destroying industrial centers?


Re the bombing I'd keep trying. LI is harder to hit than HI in my games. More dispersed. Maybe you got some bad rolls. Also, the size of the city in th ehex, or lack of size, might be in there too. I'm bombing Chinese LI in my 1942 game and I only get a 1 point hit maybe every three missions. Not with Helens, but it's still directional results.

To your second question, open a game as the allies and count VPs. If you want VPs for taking the big cities like Sydney and Melbourne you're going to have to cross the line.

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RE: Japanese strategic bombing - 5/7/2012 2:30:22 PM   
Olorin


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Thanks for the reply. I think you may be onto something, HI does seem to be easier to hit.

Regarding Australia, it isn't necessary to cross the line to conduct a strategic bombing campaign. But I have doubts that such a campaign is possible, if the LI and the resource centers are so difficult to destroy.

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Post #: 5
RE: Japanese strategic bombing - 5/7/2012 2:37:23 PM   
pompack


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Even if it were not difficult to destroy HI and LI, the Allies have so much more than they need that it is pointless to bomb for the sake of damage. If you destroyed all of the HI in OZ, the only effect would be to require the Allies to substitute cargo ships for tankers since less fuel would be used to produce supply. OTOH, the points you get for strategic bombing of Oz can mount up.

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RE: Japanese strategic bombing - 5/7/2012 2:40:45 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Olorin

Regarding Australia, it isn't necessary to cross the line to conduct a strategic bombing campaign. But I have doubts that such a campaign is possible, if the LI and the resource centers are so difficult to destroy.


My answer was more toward whether there are enough VPs available to win an auto-victory from strat bombing in Oz alone. Yes, you can harvest a lot of VPs from bombing. I'd attack Sydney's HI first if it were me.

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RE: Japanese strategic bombing - 5/7/2012 7:35:39 PM   
Olorin


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That is also the goal of my hypothetical scenario: autovictory. The total industry centers (all kinds)in SE Australia is roughly 5.000, iirc. I counted them a month ago, so this figure might be slightly off. That could give you 10.000 VPs for disabled industry.

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Post #: 8
RE: Japanese strategic bombing - 5/7/2012 8:36:53 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Olorin

That is also the goal of my hypothetical scenario: autovictory. The total industry centers (all kinds)in SE Australia is roughly 5.000, iirc. I counted them a month ago, so this figure might be slightly off. That could give you 10.000 VPs for disabled industry.


Yeah, that would help some. You could also take Sydney. Ithas spectacular VP contributions, you stop the Allies from getting all the industry and supplies it offers, and you take the best shipyard west of Pearl Harbor ex-Colombo. The garrison requirements are stiff--about a division I think or maybe a bit more--but it's worth it if you're serious. The emergency reiforcements come in a long way away and not at full strength.

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RE: Japanese strategic bombing - 5/8/2012 4:18:34 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Olorin

That is also the goal of my hypothetical scenario: autovictory. The total industry centers (all kinds)in SE Australia is roughly 5.000, iirc. I counted them a month ago, so this figure might be slightly off. That could give you 10.000 VPs for disabled industry.


If you destroyed them instead, you would reap 100,000 VP. That alone should suffice for a Japanese auto victory.

Alfred

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Post #: 10
RE: Japanese strategic bombing - 5/8/2012 4:23:40 PM   
Historiker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Olorin

That is also the goal of my hypothetical scenario: autovictory. The total industry centers (all kinds)in SE Australia is roughly 5.000, iirc. I counted them a month ago, so this figure might be slightly off. That could give you 10.000 VPs for disabled industry.


If you destroyed them instead, you would reap 100,000 VP. That alone should suffice for a Japanese auto victory.

Alfred

How to destroy them effectively?
Can Repair Shipyards be destroyed as well?

< Message edited by Historiker -- 5/8/2012 4:24:00 PM >


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RE: Japanese strategic bombing - 5/8/2012 6:28:50 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Olorin

That is also the goal of my hypothetical scenario: autovictory. The total industry centers (all kinds)in SE Australia is roughly 5.000, iirc. I counted them a month ago, so this figure might be slightly off. That could give you 10.000 VPs for disabled industry.


If you destroyed them instead, you would reap 100,000 VP. That alone should suffice for a Japanese auto victory.

Alfred

How to destroy them effectively?
Can Repair Shipyards be destroyed as well?


Destroying all of them is difficult becuase Japan would need to create a firestorm. By far the best way to create a firestorm is by targetting manpower centres. IIRC, not all the Australian industrial sites have manpower centres.

On the otherhand, every time industry is repaired you can damage it again and gain 2 VPs per damaged centre. Do it often enough and you could harvest even more VPs than you get from their destruction.

All industry can be destroyed. That includes repair shipyards.

Alfred

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Post #: 12
RE: Japanese strategic bombing - 5/8/2012 7:14:10 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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Emilies have long range and could be used for that role (plus you don't need an airfield, you could fly them out of Milne Bay)

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RE: Japanese strategic bombing - 5/8/2012 7:24:10 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

Emilies have long range and could be used for that role (plus you don't need an airfield, you could fly them out of Milne Bay)


Again with the Emily's? How many Emily's will it require to obliterate Australian industry and shipyards? This is a serious question. How many Emily's should Olorin commit to the destruction of Australian facilities, and what will he use to search the Pacific with while his floatplanes are being used as strategic bombers? How will he overcome their small numbers and service rating of 3 that will keep them from operations over extended periods of time? Please explain.

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RE: Japanese strategic bombing - 5/8/2012 8:28:23 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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unit size needs to be open to the player, so you can build any plane types you want to

Emily is basically the only airframe with enough range and durability to act in that type of role
more payload than 2E, same number of pilots as 2E
it's also a bit underrrated in AE stock (48 durabaility while sunderland has 60)

if you can have unit sizes of 96, you could have a few hundred emilies at any one time
and that would be enough to damage Oz industry pretty badly..

but then .. 4 engines a piece = fewer other plane types

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RE: Japanese strategic bombing - 5/8/2012 8:52:51 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

unit size needs to be open to the player, so you can build any plane types you want to

Emily is basically the only airframe with enough range and durability to act in that type of role
more payload than 2E, same number of pilots as 2E
it's also a bit underrrated in AE stock (48 durabaility while sunderland has 60)

if you can have unit sizes of 96, you could have a few hundred emilies at any one time
and that would be enough to damage Oz industry pretty badly..

but then .. 4 engines a piece = fewer other plane types


I thought I'd give you the benefit of the doubt and pose a serious question to your post, but you let me down once again. Another fantasy suggestion of yours for the uber Emily in a serious thread about strategic bombing. I won't make that mistake again.

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Post #: 16
RE: Japanese strategic bombing - 5/8/2012 9:02:30 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Destroying all of them is difficult becuase Japan would need to create a firestorm. By far the best way to create a firestorm is by targetting manpower centres. IIRC, not all the Australian industrial sites have manpower centres.

Given the light bomb loads of Japanese bombers I doubt they could ever create one. It's almost impossible with late-war Allied 4Es.

On the otherhand, every time industry is repaired you can damage it again and gain 2 VPs per damaged centre. Do it often enough and you could harvest even more VPs than you get from their destruction.

You could so long as the Allies left you alone to try.

All industry can be destroyed. That includes repair shipyards.

I've always gotten repair yard hits by the ones and twos as ancillary damage. I don't think I've ever succeeded in taking one to complete destruciton. They're hard to hit, almost as hard as CD guns.



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RE: Japanese strategic bombing - 5/8/2012 9:08:54 PM   
Nikademus


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Heavier bomb loads definately will increase the chance but it can be done with lighter loads, if all the conditions are right, which the Allies found out often didn't happen, despite their best efforts to "bottle it"

The Japanese destruction of Cavite naval base was done largely with 60kg bombs. Something I would not have given much credence too until I read a good detailed account of the air attack.

Keeping industries "destroyed" however requires a rinse and repeat effort unlikely to be seen with limited assets. Thats the real lesson. Carpet bomb the target, repeat. repeat and repeat it again.

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RE: Japanese strategic bombing - 5/8/2012 9:12:05 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Heavier bomb loads definately will increase the chance but it can be done with lighter loads, if all the conditions are right, which the Allies found out often didn't happen, despite their best efforts to "bottle it"

The Japanese destruction of Cavite naval base was done largely with 60kg bombs. Something I would not have given much credence too until I read a good detailed account of the air attack.

Keeping industries "destroyed" however requires a rinse and repeat effort unlikely to be seen with limited assets. Thats the real lesson. Carpet bomb the target, repeat. repeat and repeat it again.


Re the limited bomb loads I was referring only to creating firestorms. In my experience with HI strat bombing with massed B-29s and B-17s it is very difficult in the game to create one. Usually several days of sustained manpower bombing by several hundred 4es at 10,000ft or so, at night. I have not gotten far into a first Japanese game, but so far their bombers in China working on cities are very light in their effests. I also don't see them having the aviaiton support to mount the huge effort required to get to a firestorm condition. I agree that they can chip away at industry; no question there.

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RE: Japanese strategic bombing - 5/8/2012 9:17:35 PM   
Nikademus


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i know.....so was i.

Firestorms in the game i havn't had much experience with. But SB in general in AE is pretty easy in general so the games i play have HR's to control SB when and by what types.

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RE: Japanese strategic bombing - 5/8/2012 9:17:53 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Olorin

That is also the goal of my hypothetical scenario: autovictory. The total industry centers (all kinds)in SE Australia is roughly 5.000, iirc. I counted them a month ago, so this figure might be slightly off. That could give you 10.000 VPs for disabled industry.


If you destroyed them instead, you would reap 100,000 VP. That alone should suffice for a Japanese auto victory.

Alfred

How to destroy them effectively?
Can Repair Shipyards be destroyed as well?


Destroying all of them is difficult becuase Japan would need to create a firestorm. By far the best way to create a firestorm is by targetting manpower centres. IIRC, not all the Australian industrial sites have manpower centres.

On the otherhand, every time industry is repaired you can damage it again and gain 2 VPs per damaged centre. Do it often enough and you could harvest even more VPs than you get from their destruction.

All industry can be destroyed. That includes repair shipyards.

Alfred

What about outright capture by shock attack, Alfred?

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RE: Japanese strategic bombing - 5/8/2012 11:32:48 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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H8K emily was real

so was the G5N Shinzan (Liz)


player needs to have the option to build them if they want to..

G5N probably would have worked as a strategic Bmr but it was pretty slow..so it would suffer against allied AA

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RE: Japanese strategic bombing - 5/9/2012 12:21:02 AM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

H8K emily was real


I think yer post is rather derivative to the subject unless you can explain how a player using WitP can put enough Emilies in place to do the job. Otherwise you're basically speculating the "what ifs" of a historical debate. If that's what yer about, all I can say is that the Emily was no bomber. There's good reasons why its durability is lower than that of the Sunderland.

Mebbe you should start another thread along the lines of "if you altered this and tweaked that, aircraft X could have won the war" sort.

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RE: Japanese strategic bombing - 5/9/2012 12:45:12 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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For Scenario 1

1) increase the production rate
2) transfer good Grnd B pilots into those emily units
3) use Babs / Dinah for naval search
4) put all emily squadrons in 1 place
5) drop warheads onto foreheads

it has the most range of all japanese types
and the largest payload
make good use of them

< Message edited by Commander Stormwolf -- 5/9/2012 12:46:12 AM >


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RE: Japanese strategic bombing - 5/9/2012 1:37:10 PM   
Olorin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Olorin

That is also the goal of my hypothetical scenario: autovictory. The total industry centers (all kinds)in SE Australia is roughly 5.000, iirc. I counted them a month ago, so this figure might be slightly off. That could give you 10.000 VPs for disabled industry.


If you destroyed them instead, you would reap 100,000 VP. That alone should suffice for a Japanese auto victory.

Alfred


Interesting. I doubt destroying all of them is a realistic goal (as you point out in a later post), but even half of that would be enough to give me an autovictory. I should also point out that my game is in 1943, so I have to consider if it's possible to gain air superiority over my targets in this stage of the war. The Tojo is not the uber-weapon most people think, or I am not using it right.

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Post #: 25
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