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Naming and dating US Carriers

 
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Naming and dating US Carriers - 5/6/2012 11:31:18 PM   
el cid again

 

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In a historical scenario, what should the names of US aircraft carriers be? IRL several were named or renamed,
for other ships lost, or for battles during the war. How can we, as scenario designers, know what ships will be
lost - or what battles fought - during a game war? Except, perhaps, for Bataan, I don't think we can. So I
believe the best system is to use the ORIGINAL name of the ship - and not rename it at all. This itself sometimes
presents problems - as that name may have been used later.

Another issue is WHEN should they appear? Stock (the latest build) has inconsistency. Several appear before they
were commissioned! Others appear at (or within days after) they commissioned. Still others appear months later.
It seems to me that one standard should be used. Either use the date it entered the theater in any sense, or use
the date it commissions WHERE it commissions (even if off map). The manual says a new ship should work up before
going into combat. Delaying when that work up starts does not change it is STILL required. Also, if Japanese ships
appear when they commission, should not the same standard apply to USN?

Here is my suggested names and dates for USN CVs.

Historical Name Suggested Name Date Stock Date
CV-9 Essex Essex CV-9 21 May 43 19 May 43
CV-10 Yorktown (ii) Bon H Richard CV-10 15 Apr 43 2 July 43
CV-11 Intrepid Intrepid CV-11 16 Aug 43 4 Dec 43
CV-12 Hornet (ii) Kearsarge CV-12 29 Nov 43 2 Feb 44
CV-13 Franklin Franklin CV-13 31 Jan 44 1 May 44
CV-14 Hancock Ticonderoga CV-14 8 May 44 5 Aug 44
CV-15 Randolph Randolph CV-15 9 Oct 44 7 Dec 44
CV-16 Lexington (ii) Cabot CV-16 17 Feb 43 15 Jul 43
CV-17 Bunker Hill Bunker Hill CV-17 25 May 43 9 Sep 43
CV-18 Wasp (ii) Oriskany CV-18 24 Nov 43 11 Mar 44
CV-19 Hancock Ticonderoga CV-19 15 Apr 44 16 Aug 44
CV-20 Bennington Bennington CV-20 6 Aug 44 11 Dec 44
CV-21 Boxer Boxer CV-21 16 Apr 45 13 Jul 45 4
CV-31 Bon H Richard Valley Forge CV-31 26 Nov 44 30 Mar 45
CV-32 Leyte Crown Point CV-32 11 Apr 46 Not in Stock
CV-33 Kearsarge Kearsarge CV-33 2 Mar 46 9 Aug 45
CV-34 Oriskany (ii) Not in RHS Not in RHS Not in Stock Completed in 1950
CV-35 Reprisal Not in RHS Not in RHS Not in Stock Cancelled in 1945
CV-36 Antietam Antietam CV-36 28 Jan 45 21 May 45
CV-37 Princeton Valley Forge CV-37 18 Nov 45 Not in Stock
CV-38 Shangra La Shangra La CV-38 15 Sep 44 15 Jan 45
CV-39 Lake Champlain Lake Champlain CV-39 3 Jun 45 15 Sep 45
CV-40 Tarawa Tarawa CV-40 8 Dec 45 7 Mar 46
CVB-41 Midway Midway CVB-41 10 Sep 45 10 Sep 45
CVB-42 F D R Coral Sea CVB-42 27 Oct 45 27 Oct 45 Renamed FDR
CVB-43 Coral Sea Not in RHS Not in RHS Not in Stock Completed in 1947
CVB-44 No Name Not in RHS Not in RHS Not in Stock Cancelled in 1945
CV-45 Valley Forge Not in RHS Not in RHS Not in Stock Completed in 1946
CV-46 Iwo Jima Not in RHS Not in RHS Not in Stock Cancelled in 1945
CV-47 Philippine Sea Philippine Sea CV-46 11 May 46 Not in Stock



< Message edited by el cid again -- 5/6/2012 11:33:52 PM >
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RE: Naming and dating US Carriers - 5/6/2012 11:36:21 PM   
el cid again

 

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These are the suggested names and dates for USN CVLs.

Historical Name Suggested Name Date Stock Date
CVL-22 Independence Independence CVL-22 1 Jan 43 16 Jun 43
CVL-23 Princeton Gettysburgh CVL-23 25 Feb 43 1 Jul 43
CVL-24 Belleau Wood Belleau Wood CVL-24 31 Mar 43 6 Jul 43
CVL-25 Cowpens Cowpens CVL-25 28 May 43 26 Aug 43
CVL-26 Monterey Monterey CVL-26 17 Jun 43 18 Sep 43
CVL-27 Langley Crown Point CVL-28 31 Aug 43 2 Dec 43
CVL-28 Cabot Cabot CVL-27 24 Jul 43 11 Nov 43
CVL-29 Bataan Bataan CVL-29 17 Nov 43 28 Feb 44
CVL-30 San Jacinto San Jacinto CVL-30 15 Dec 43 24 Mar 44
CVL-48 Saipan Arlington CVL-48 Not in Stock or most RHS Scenarios
CVL-49 Wright Wright CVL-49 Not in Stock or most RHS Scenarios

(in reply to el cid again)
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RE: Naming and dating US Carriers - 5/7/2012 2:05:12 AM   
rjopel

 

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This is build and commissioning data from US Navy in WW2

Months Months
Ship Laid Down Launched Commissioned Lay Down to Launch Lauch to Commision
CV 09 4/28/1941 7/31/1942 12/31/1942 16 6
CV 10 12/1/1941 1/21/1943 4/15/1943 14 4
CV 11 12/1/1941 4/26/1943 8/16/1943 17 4
CV 12 8/3/1942 8/30/1943 11/29/1943 13 4
CV 13 12/7/1942 10/14/1943 1/31/1944 11 4
CV 14 3/1/1943 2/7/1944 5/8/1944 12 4
CV 15 5/10/1943 6/29/1944 10/9/1944 14 4
CV 16 7/15/1941 9/26/1942 2/17/1943 15 5
CV 17 9/15/1941 12/7/1942 5/24/1943 15 6
CV 18 3/18/1942 8/17/1943 11/24/1943 17 4
CV 19 1/26/1943 1/24/1944 4/15/1944 13 3
CV 20 12/15/1942 2/16/1944 8/6/1944 15 6
CV 21 9/13/1943 12/4/1944 4/16/1945 16 5
CV 31 2/1/1943 4/29/1944 11/26/1944 16 8
CV 32 2/21/1944 8/23/1945 4/11/1946 19 8
CV 33 3/1/1943 5/5/1945 3/2/1946 15 11
CV 34 5/1/1944 10/13/1945 9/25/1950 18 60
CV 35 7/1/1944 8/11/1945 52.30% complete when scrapped
CV 36 3/15/1943 8/20/1944 1/28/1945 18 6
CV 37 9/14/1943 7/8/1945 11/18/1945 22 5
CV 38 1/15/1943 2/24/1944 9/15/1944 14 7
CV 39 3/15/1943 11/2/1944 6/2/1945 20 8
CV 40 1/5/1944 5/12/1945 12/8/1945 17 8
CV 45 8/7/1944 11/18/1945 11/3/1946 16 12
CV 46 1/29/1945 8/11/1945 Scrapped 19
CV 47 8/19/1944 9/5/1945 5/11/1946 13 9
CV 50 Cancelled 3-28-45
CV 51 Cancelled 3-28-45
CV 52 Cancelled 3-28-45
CV 53 Cancelled 3-28-45
CV 54 Cancelled 3-28-45
CV 55 Cancelled 3-28-45
CVB 41 10/27/1943 3/20/1945 9/10/1945 17 6
CVB 42 12/1/1943 4/29/1945 10/27/1945 18 7
CVB 43 7/12/1944 4/2/1946 10/1/1947 21 7
CV 44 Cancelled 1-11-43
CVB 56 Cancelled 3-28-45
CVB 57 Cancelled 3-28-45
CVL 22 5/1/1941 8/22/1942 1/14/1943 16 6
CVL 23 6/2/1941 10/18/1942 2/25/1943 17 5
CVL 24 8/11/1941 12/6/1942 3/31/1943 16 5
CVL 25 11/17/1941 1/17/1943 5/28/1943 15 5
CVL 26 12/29/1941 2/28/1943 6/17/1943 15 5
CVL 27 4/11/1942 5/22/1943 8/31/1943 14 4
CVL 28 3/16/1942 4/4/1943 7/24/1943 13 5
CVL 29 8/31/1942 8/1/1943 11/17/1943 12 5
CVL 30 10/26/1942 9/29/1943 12/15/1943 12 4
CVL 48 7/10/1944 7/8/1945 7/14/1946 13 13
CVL 49 8/21/1944 9/1/1945 2/9/1947 13 18


I would look at the dates for anything post VE-Day and see if it exceeds the average times for construction and adjust the available dates accordingly. Since if the US isn't winning or loses more carriers then orginal they may have gone forward with construciton. Examles are CV's 44, 35, 46, 43, 48, 49, 34, 33.

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(in reply to el cid again)
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RE: Naming and dating US Carriers - 5/7/2012 4:09:48 PM   
Weidi72


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Isn´t it possible to change a shipname before arrival? I saw it in da babes mod. There you can rename the carriers which were sunk in real history. Maybe you can format all shipnames to be changeable.

< Message edited by Weidi72 -- 5/7/2012 4:11:13 PM >

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RE: Naming and dating US Carriers - 5/7/2012 5:54:06 PM   
drw61


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IIRC you can change any ship name that ends in a II (Yorktown II)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Weidi72

Isn´t it possible to change a shipname before arrival? I saw it in da babes mod. There you can rename the carriers which were sunk in real history. Maybe you can format all shipnames to be changeable.


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RE: Naming and dating US Carriers - 5/7/2012 10:33:05 PM   
jcjordan

 

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If you go by the "laid down" names, you'll have 2 Cabot's (CV16 & CVL28), so you might want to rethink on those 2 other than that the names come out correctly. In my stock game that's what I did when a II was coming up was to change it to what it was historically for the CV types. As to the CA/CL/DD, I really didn't get around to worrying about them. For the CV/CA/CL's, you can kinda makeup a name that fits the historical naming system the USN used.

(in reply to drw61)
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RE: Naming and dating US Carriers - 5/7/2012 11:05:06 PM   
BBfanboy


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Doesn't the game engine modify the construction rate of ships based on how well the economy is running? E.G. if you are successful in bringing back lots of resources from other lands and you have not had to replace as many aircraft as historically, wouldn't there be more HI points to go toward shipbuilding?

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RE: Naming and dating US Carriers - 5/8/2012 2:08:48 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16484
Joined: 10/10/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Weidi72

Isn´t it possible to change a shipname before arrival? I saw it in da babes mod. There you can rename the carriers which were sunk in real history. Maybe you can format all shipnames to be changeable.



There are rename fields, to be sure. But as far as I know, a mod comes canned - the fields are already done.
I suppose one could edit DURING a game - not sure if an update would pick up the new data or not? Ships do
change devices and speed and things like that - but names? I think you are stuck with what was there on turn
1 when the game began.


(in reply to Weidi72)
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RE: Naming and dating US Carriers - 5/8/2012 2:09:45 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16484
Joined: 10/10/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: drw61

IIRC you can change any ship name that ends in a II (Yorktown II)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Weidi72

Isn´t it possible to change a shipname before arrival? I saw it in da babes mod. There you can rename the carriers which were sunk in real history. Maybe you can format all shipnames to be changeable.





How?

(in reply to drw61)
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RE: Naming and dating US Carriers - 5/8/2012 2:16:15 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16484
Joined: 10/10/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Doesn't the game engine modify the construction rate of ships based on how well the economy is running? E.G. if you are successful in bringing back lots of resources from other lands and you have not had to replace as many aircraft as historically, wouldn't there be more HI points to go toward shipbuilding?


The Allies, regretfully, don't get HI points really. Their ships are determined by the scenario databases. For lots of reasons, there is a structural imbalance between the sides. The designers feel Japan is "all on the map" and that management is critical to the war effort. But the Allies are "mostly not on the map" and the players are only "theater commanders who do not get to decide grand strategy anyway." They are immune to enemy attacks - more or less - and going to get what they are going to get pretty much anyway. Partly to address that I put lots of Allied aircraft production on the map - wherever it really was - at Hydrabad - in two cities in Russia - in two or three in Australia - assembly of a fighter at Batavia and potentially at Liowing in China -
and several points in the USA and Canada. This means those factories can be bombed or sometimes even shelled or captured. I suppose if a ship is to appear at a location on the map that is captured it will not do that there - some that appear in the Philippines seem to wait for you to own the place first - and show up in red on the build list if you don't own it. But as far as I know you only hurt enemy ship production if you sieze its arrival port - if that is in a place where it is possible to do that.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
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RE: Naming and dating US Carriers - 5/8/2012 2:38:20 AM   
jcjordan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again


quote:

ORIGINAL: drw61

IIRC you can change any ship name that ends in a II (Yorktown II)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Weidi72

Isn´t it possible to change a shipname before arrival? I saw it in da babes mod. There you can rename the carriers which were sunk in real history. Maybe you can format all shipnames to be changeable.





How?


You can while the ship is still in the arrival queue & if it has II after it (ie Yorktown II), you can change the name of it but once it has arrived you can't change it or if you change the name in your scenario to something other than shipxxx II. I would assume that anyship w/ the II at the end becomes changeable until it comes in & it's not just those defined currently

< Message edited by jcjordan -- 5/8/2012 2:39:59 AM >

(in reply to el cid again)
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RE: Naming and dating US Carriers - 5/8/2012 6:16:10 AM   
el cid again

 

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interesting

is that in the manual somewhere?


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RE: Naming and dating US Carriers - 5/8/2012 8:41:37 AM   
YankeeAirRat


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I thought there threads years ago in both WiTP and in the planning for WiTP:AE about this very subject. One of those debates that raged for a while and most everyone agreed to leave the names historical and not Hypothetical. The re-naming thing isn't in manual or any of the readmes that I know of. Rather again, it is an "undocumented" feature that was mention by MichaelM in a very similar thread again a year or two back. I wish I could find it, but my bing-arate and google-fu are failing me.

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RE: Naming and dating US Carriers - 5/9/2012 1:43:58 AM   
jcjordan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

interesting

is that in the manual somewhere?




Not sure but I doubt it. All I know is that somewhere through the mists of time in discussing the "II" ships that I seem to remember that as long as it had "II" at the end you could change the name as long as it had not arrived. IIRC It wasn't specifically pegged to ships historically sunk so you could create your own scenario w/ each ship having a II after it & it'd allow you to change them before arrival, theoretically

I'd say the best way if doing your own scenario would be to give them the historical laid down names then make up names for the duplicate ones based on USN historical naming rules. Bad thing about it would be when dealing w/ the smaller types like DD's due to the amount of ships to deal with. CV/CA/CL not much of a problem due to lesser # of ships to deal with.

< Message edited by jcjordan -- 5/9/2012 1:44:40 AM >

(in reply to el cid again)
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