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Make colonization tech race specific

 
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Make colonization tech race specific - 5/6/2012 1:56:20 PM   
Carewolf

 

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I feel the colonization tech still needs some love, especially the fact that all races gets the same secondary colonization targets is very unfortunate.

If the colonization tech were instead split into three separate racial trees, then it would depend on your starting habitat what your secondary targets would be.

If possible this could also be implemented as restrictions on what races can migrate to colonies (no water-creatures on desert planets before the appropriate colonization tech is available).

Examples:

Continental/Marshy races:
Colonization 0: Native type only
Colonization 1: Continental and Marshy
Colonization 2a: (Adaptation) Desert
Colonization 2b: (Adaptation) Oceans
Colonization 3a: (Domed Habitats) Volcanic
Colonization 3b: (Domed Habitats) Ice

Desert/Volcanic races:
Colonization 0: Native type only
Colonization 1: Desert and Volcanic
Colonization 2a: (Adaptation) Continental
Colonization 2b: (Adaptation) Marshy
Colonization 3a: (Domed Habitats) Ocean
Colonization 3b: (Domed Habitats) Ice

Ocean/Ice races:
Colonization 0: Native type only
Colonization 1: Ocean and Ice
Colonization 2a: (Adaptation) Continental
Colonization 2b: (Adaptation) Marshy
Colonization 3a: (Domed Habitats) Desert
Colonization 3b: (Domed Habitats) Volcanic
Post #: 1
RE: Make colonization tech race specific - 5/6/2012 2:00:09 PM   
ASHBERY76


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Yes I like this idea.

(in reply to Carewolf)
Post #: 2
RE: Make colonization tech race specific - 5/6/2012 4:03:51 PM   
Modest

 

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That is a good idea. I hope that something like that will be implemented.
I am not sure about immigration being influenced by technology progress thou. But colonisation - 100% agree.

(in reply to ASHBERY76)
Post #: 3
RE: Make colonization tech race specific - 5/6/2012 7:40:00 PM   
Kayoz


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Seems a reasonable change - though I suspect it's something that would require rejigging the tech tree too much and won't be considered till DW v2.

That said, I'd have two main concerns:

1. Tech trading/tech theft would need a balance check. Humans stealing/trading Col-1 tech from Securans would get volcanic colonization ability - or marsh? Humans would get a VAST benefit from stealing volcanic tech (Col-1) from Securans, compared to the cost of researching it themselves. Further, if you are humans and have subjugated some Gizureans (volcanic), does completing Col-1 mean your colony ship built at the subjugated world can colonize volcanic/marsh or volcanic/desert? Given your answers, does that make subjugating an independent colony of a different native type have more of an impact on your ability to expand? If you're human with Col-0 and Col-1 and have subjugated an independent Naxxilan and Gizurean world - you can now colonize ANY planet type if col tech applies independently to each race.

2. Planet quality would be a concern. From what I've seen, continental planets have the highest average quality followed closely by marsh, while ice/volcanic planets generally have the poorest and ocean/desert are somewhere in the middle. Under your system, the non-continental/marsh races would not be able to get the best (continental and marsh) for quite a while. How would that affect the expansion balance between races? Evaluation of the relative frequency of planet types would need to be considered.

< Message edited by Kayoz -- 5/6/2012 7:43:23 PM >

(in reply to Carewolf)
Post #: 4
RE: Make colonization tech race specific - 5/7/2012 10:18:54 AM   
martok


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I really like this idea as well. In fact, I'm retroactively surprised I've not seen it mentioned before (at least that I remember)!




quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

2. Planet quality would be a concern. From what I've seen, continental planets have the highest average quality followed closely by marsh, while ice/volcanic planets generally have the poorest and ocean/desert are somewhere in the middle. Under your system, the non-continental/marsh races would not be able to get the best (continental and marsh) for quite a while. How would that affect the expansion balance between races? Evaluation of the relative frequency of planet types would need to be considered.

It seems like the most obvious solution would be to make the higher quality (continental/marsh) planets more rare, and the lower-quality (ice/volcanic) planets more common. A bit gamey, perhaps, and the balance would undoubtedly be a little tricky, but I think it would work.



_____________________________

"Evil is easy, and has infinite forms." -- Pascal


(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 5
RE: Make colonization tech race specific - 5/7/2012 10:50:45 AM   
Kayoz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: martok

I really like this idea as well. In fact, I'm retroactively surprised I've not seen it mentioned before (at least that I remember)!




quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

2. Planet quality would be a concern. From what I've seen, continental planets have the highest average quality followed closely by marsh, while ice/volcanic planets generally have the poorest and ocean/desert are somewhere in the middle. Under your system, the non-continental/marsh races would not be able to get the best (continental and marsh) for quite a while. How would that affect the expansion balance between races? Evaluation of the relative frequency of planet types would need to be considered.

It seems like the most obvious solution would be to make the higher quality (continental/marsh) planets more rare, and the lower-quality (ice/volcanic) planets more common. A bit gamey, perhaps, and the balance would undoubtedly be a little tricky, but I think it would work.



That would have further impacts -
1. Continental/Marsh races would have an even tougher time at the start. Fewer planets available.
2. Rare resources that ONLY appear on those planet types (eg: chromium) would become even rarer.
And other indirect impacts which I can't think of right now.

I was just pointing out that this sort of change would have game balance impact that might not be immediately obvious. It could certainly be balanced out - but knock-on effects have to be considered.

(in reply to martok)
Post #: 6
RE: Make colonization tech race specific - 5/8/2012 9:53:34 PM   
Carewolf

 

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I thought the quality question was balanced by supply and demand. There are way more races that start with continental and marshy as their native type, which means they will be colonized first.

Of course if the races starts far apart in a large galaxy then it might need a different balance, but the advantage of having a more extreme native planet type should normally be that you can have it for yourself longer.

I am starting to think though that four trees instead of 3 would make more sense: Continental/desert, marshy/ocean, ice, volcanic. Simply to make sure the two extreme types are not too easy to get hold of (there are also a lot of desert races).

As for stealing or buying tech from others. There are two ways, either the trees are not that separate, and the same tech that makes humans able to settle desert planets would make securans able to settle continental planets. Or the way I would prefer it, that such a tech ONLY affects races with those native origins. So a technology for how ocean creates can live under the ice on an ice planets, is not going to help humans or desert races in colonizing ice planets.

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 7
RE: Make colonization tech race specific - 5/8/2012 10:26:34 PM   
Carewolf

 

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Okay how about this. I have changed the basic setup to make it more balanced compared to the different planet types.

Dry races: Races with native habitat in Continental or Desert planets.
Wet races: Races with native habitat in Marshy or Ocean planets.
Extremophile races: Races with native habitat in Ice or Volcanic planets.

Long list of tech-descriptions. This is similar to the short list in the first post, but takes up more space because of the descriptions.

L1: Basic colonization:
Standard colonization module: Allows all races to colonize their native habitat.

L2: Native dry colonization:
Improves standard colonization module: Allows dry races to colonize both desert and continental planets.

L2: Native wet colonization:
Improves standard colonization module: Allows wet races to colonize both marshy and ocean planets.

L2: Native extremophile colonization:
Improves standard colonization module: Allows extremophile races to colonize both ice and volcanic planets.

L3: Marshy adaptation
Improved colonization module: Allows dry races to colonize marshy planets

L3: Volcanic adaptation
Improved colonization module: Allows dry races to colonize volcanic planets

L3: Continental adaptation
Improved colonization module: Allows wet races to colonize continental planets

L3: Ice adaptation
Improved colonization module: Allows wet races to colonize ice planets

L3: Desert adaptation
Improved colonization module: Allows extremophile races to colonize desert planets

L3: Ocean adaptation
Improved colonization module: Allows extremophile races to colonize ocean planets

L4: Ocean habitats
Advanced colonization module: Allows dry races to colonize ocean planets

L4: Ice habitats
Advanced colonization module: Allows dry races to colonize ice planets

L4: Desert habitats
Advanced colonization module: Allows wet races to colonize desert planets

L4: Volcanic habitats
Advanced colonization module: Allows wet races to colonize volcanic planets

L4: Continental habitats
Advanced colonization module: Allows extremophile races to colonize continental planets

L4: Marshy habitats
Advanced colonization module: Allows extremophile races to colonize marshy planets

The extremophiles are a bit silly, but it helps keep things down to three paths, for more realism you might have 4, but this is kinda of nice and balanced. Also someone need to think of good names for all the something to something techs ;)

< Message edited by Carewolf -- 5/10/2012 8:50:29 PM >

(in reply to Carewolf)
Post #: 8
RE: Make colonization tech race specific - 5/9/2012 1:09:25 AM   
Kayoz


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From: Timbuktu
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Sounds like it's getting ridiculously complex, for the benefit it imparts.

OK, so you're a player. You've found an abandoned colony ship - to determine what planets it can colonize, you have to check your colonization tech by race type - or possibly the colonization type specific to that race (to quote: Or the way I would prefer it, that such a tech ONLY affects races with those native origins). Now, the computer can sort that out for you - but say you don't want to immediately use the ship as you are close to finishing research of the next colonization tech - now you HAVE to do it manually. Check the race, determine native type, and check the tech how it applies to THAT race - assuming it isn't type specific, in which you have to determine what tech you have for that native type.

Say that the player is given the opportunity to trade/steal tech. Under your system, how is he supposed to evaluate the relative worth of each tech? He sees "Colonization Tech L3b" - and that means what? He'll need to go back to races he controls to check how it affects each race, and then weigh it up based on the relative populations and his plans. It's not like "Desert Colonization" means any race under his control can colonize desert planets. "Colonization Tech L3b" would mean marsh/volcanic planets for Securans. To Gizureans this means desert/ocean. To aquatic races, this means ice/continental planets. Now, he has to weigh that up - the value for the player's race and the relative worth of the subjugated/joined races - to determine if sending his spies or trading/buying the tech is worthwhile. Now, quantify the decision process and put it into code for the AI.

Oh, that's assuming that tech applies to all races. If it's on a per-native-type as you suggest, then now he has to recognize that trading for "Colonization Tech L3b" from the Securans means his desert races - and ONLY his desert races benefit. Assuming he HAS any desert race populations. Try putting all that on a UI, so it's intuitive to a player.

I won't even go into how big and cluttered the colonization tech tree will become. A tech tree FOR EACH NATIVE TYPE. FIVE (or four?) colonization trees as you suggest (cont, dry, wet, ice/volcanic (possibly separate ice/vol trees)) where we have one now.

I agree that there's a certain logic in what you are proposing. But it would be a nightmare to present to the player in a sensible manner given the current UI design, much less a manner that the player can understand his current situation AND understand what impact his choices will have. Add to this, the additional code so the computer controlled positions can handle the choices.

That's not to say it can't be done - but Elliot is going to have to do some serious work on the UI to make it intuitive, and the AI as well. I'd rather be able to make my Ringworld before this change!

< Message edited by Kayoz -- 5/9/2012 3:49:01 AM >

(in reply to Carewolf)
Post #: 9
RE: Make colonization tech race specific - 5/9/2012 10:32:18 AM   
Arcatus


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Very complicated...!

Another game solve this by making the colonization tech tree flat - all colonization techs are available at the start, and your race starts with only one of them, and have to research the rather expensive options. (at first you can only colonize with a bad penalty - you have to research a even more expensive tech get rid of that penalty)

What you are researching is essentially the infrastructure - (i.e how to insulate housing on ice worlds)

The colonization module is always the same - it is simply used to carry the colonists.

If you find a colony ship or capture a different world you could receive the relevant basic colony tech.

KISS.

< Message edited by Arcatus -- 5/9/2012 10:49:37 AM >

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 10
RE: Make colonization tech race specific - 5/10/2012 8:48:08 PM   
Carewolf

 

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Joined: 9/20/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

Sounds like it's getting ridiculously complex, for the benefit it imparts.



You are making it sound more complicated than it is. For the player it essentially means that colonization tech only applies to his own race. Other races he may find will typically only be able to settle their native home planet. And colony ships he find will be able to settle whatever is listed in the info box that pops up when you select the ship as it always does.

Colony tech from other races will be extremely expensive to buy, so it is essentially a non-option, and only something to pursue if you have a large minority race. So never anything confusing, but only something a player would do deliberately.

As for the tree. The current tech tree has two branches, this will triple it to six, but where only two are available and really of any use to any player.

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 11
RE: Make colonization tech race specific - 5/10/2012 10:36:24 PM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1393
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From: Timbuktu
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Carewolf
You are making it sound more complicated than it is. For the player it essentially means that colonization tech only applies to his own race. Other races he may find will typically only be able to settle their native home planet. And colony ships he find will be able to settle whatever is listed in the info box that pops up when you select the ship as it always does.


Yes, I pointed out that any colony ship, including one discovered, will have its available valid target types listed. However, you are ignoring the issue I pointed out that in order to determine what effect the hypothetical player will benefit from his next tech level research - he'll have to drill through multiple screens, as one of your propositions was to have tech advances in colonization affect each native type differently. It's hardly the simple matter as you suggest.

Not to mention trying to figure out what expansion opportunities a tech research will open up, as the player has to identify the newly available types for each and every race.

When you say, "typically", you miss the point that the strength of a system is in how well it adapts to "atypical" situations. Your proposition works fine for typical situation, but very poorly for atypical situations.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carewolf
Colony tech from other races will be extremely expensive to buy, so it is essentially a non-option, and only something to pursue if you have a large minority race. So never anything confusing, but only something a player would do deliberately.


Why should they be expensive? In one proposal, you suggest that each and every native type have its own tech tree. In that case, the tech recipient will ONLY be able to use it to expand his colonization options for the affected race. If this is followed, colonization tech has a DRASTICALLY LOWER worth, based on the recipient's native type, and the negotiation value should be lowered to reflect its decreased worth. After all, L3a tech for volcanic native type might be quite valuable to another volcanic race, but it's relatively worthless to an aquatic race that controls no population of that type. Yet you propose INCREASING the tech trading value, while lowering the relative worth? Makes no sense to me. What you're suggesting is weaving tech trading into a tangled web.

And I disagree that it is a "non-option" to trade for tech or something that a player will do only explicitly if he has a large subjugated race of that type. At the closing of a war, if I'm beating on the race (ie: winning, have taken multiple planets), I'll quite happily return a planet or two for technology thrown in with the peace deal, especially if I consider them to be low value or difficult to defend. Under your system of DECREASED worth and INCREASED price, you're forcing me to take ANY OTHER technology in the peace deal, over colonization tech? Where's the sense in that?

It's also quite possible that a player will wish to dump cash into a relatively weak, but friendly race if that race comes under attack by larger, unfriendly race. Humans sharing a border with Boskarans (unfriendly) and Securans (friendly) - a cash-rich human player would be quite justified in wanting to dump cash into the Securans. In that case, why quibble over inflated tech prices, when one's real objective is to prop up the race? Non-option, as you suggest? Trading tech as a pretense for propping up a race is a reasonable tactic. Yet with your proposition, "L3a Desert colonization" tech which is relatively worthless to me, is valued MORE than phased beams (L3 beam weapon path)?!? Sounds absurd. Yet your system makes it even less beneficial to prop up a race and take it's overpriced, low-worth technologies if the player trades for colonization tech, as opposed to ANY OTHER type of tech.

Not to mention spies. For races with espionage bonuses in the hands of a patient player who grooms his spies, tech theft can be a very reasonable venture. Non-option? I disagree.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Carewolf
As for the tree. The current tech tree has two branches, this will triple it to six, but where only two are available and really of any use to any player.


You will end up with 10 (possibly 8, if you merge ice/volcanic) tech trees where you have two now, as by your proposal (ref: your post 5/8/2012 2:26:34 PM) the wet/dry branches are counted independently -

Now we have 2 trees universal to all players:
- Wet Tree (Continental -> Ocean -> Ice)
- Dry Tree (Marsh -> Desert -> Volcanic)

You propose to replace with two trees (wet and dry) available with a like pair for each and every native type - that comes out to up to 12 paths by my count, not 6 as you suggest. Two branches - wet and dry for each native type -
  • Continental Native
  • Marsh Native
  • Desert Native
  • Ocean Native
  • Ice Native
  • Volcanic Native

6 * 2 = 12. This is following your preferred method -
quote:

ORIGINAL: Carewolf 5/8/2012 1:53:34 PM
Or the way I would prefer it, that such a tech ONLY affects races with those native origins.


Or 6/8 following your other proposed method -
quote:

ORIGINAL: Carewolf 5/8/2012 1:53:34 PM
I am starting to think though that four trees instead of 3 would make more sense: Continental/desert, marshy/ocean, ice, volcanic. Simply to make sure the two extreme types are not too easy to get hold of (there are also a lot of desert races).

  • Continental/Desert Native
  • Marsh/Ocean
  • Ice
  • Volcanic (Ice/Volcanic potentially merged


So, 6-12 branches, of which 2 will primarily be useful to the player - the other 4-10 branches will essentially be wasted tech if researched, or low-worth but expensive trades if he trades for them.

I don't see how this "improves" the game.

*edit*
Corrected, as I misread Carewolf's post - confusing, as he proposes alternatives to the system at various points.

< Message edited by Kayoz -- 5/11/2012 1:41:43 AM >

(in reply to Carewolf)
Post #: 12
RE: Make colonization tech race specific - 5/11/2012 9:15:06 AM   
Carewolf

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
Now we have 2 trees universal to all players:
- Wet Tree (Continental -> Ocean -> Ice)
- Dry Tree (Marsh -> Desert -> Volcanic)

You propose to replace with two trees (wet and dry) available with a like pair for each and every native type - that comes out to up to 12 paths by my count, not 6 as you suggest. Two branches - wet and dry for each native type -
  • Continental Native
  • Marsh Native
  • Desert Native
  • Ocean Native
  • Ice Native
  • Volcanic Native

6 * 2 = 12. This is following your preferred method -
quote:

ORIGINAL: Carewolf 5/8/2012 1:53:34 PM
Or the way I would prefer it, that such a tech ONLY affects races with those native origins.




Sorry, maybe it is my posts that are confusing. It specifically tried to simplify it to avoid having that many branches on the tree. And I ended up putting ice and volcanic together to get it down to 3 major branches each with 2 sub-branches.

A system where you have the same tech, but they do different things to different races, would look simple, but be confusing to read. This is why I prefer the solution I posted in the second of my posts.

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 13
RE: Make colonization tech race specific - 5/13/2012 4:14:12 PM   
bartomanboy

 

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Carewolf, that's simply a great idea! It would balance the game a lot more. Totally support this!

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RE: Make colonization tech race specific - 5/13/2012 11:23:59 PM   
Ardryn

 

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I'd be more inclined to see something along the lines of volcanic and desert races first researching volcanic and desert planets first, and ice and ocean races researching ice and ocean first. It would add a bit of variety, and require nothing more than shuffling the order of already present existing techs.

(in reply to bartomanboy)
Post #: 15
RE: Make colonization tech race specific - 5/14/2012 12:34:05 AM   
Kayoz


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From: Timbuktu
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Carewolf
A system where you have the same tech, but they do different things to different races, would look simple, but be confusing to read. This is why I prefer the solution I posted in the second of my posts.


I like this option far more than 6 colonization paths.

I think that getting a player to understand that "Colonization Tech X" will apply differently based on their native type is pretty simple. Mouse-over events showing "development maps", text descriptions, the options abound. That's a lot simpler for people to understand and the developers to code than multiple, independent tech trees. It also keeps the tech trade/theft options easier to balance, as "Colonization Tech X" is of the same worth to any race regardless of their origins.

It's one complaint leveled against many 4X games - that they offer many research paths which are only cosmetically different, or they are so unbalanced that players inevitably choose one or another. Six tech paths for colonization would easily fall into the second category, as any player would be sacrificing wonder development for filling a few more planets with subjugated races.

(in reply to Carewolf)
Post #: 16
RE: Make colonization tech race specific - 5/14/2012 1:46:53 AM   
Cauldyth

 

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Hmm, I wonder if you could colour-code them. Planets you can't colonize could be coloured yellow, orange and red, depending on how far they are from your native type. The techs themselves could then mention in their descriptions what category/colour they allow you to colonize.

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 17
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