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Question about house rule

 
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Question about house rule - 5/5/2012 6:12:29 PM   
armin


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With one of my opponenets we have rule to pay pp for transfering units across borders. However i cought him several times that he is preparing assault from places where the hq did not yet arrive for example they should arrive in half year and he is staging attacks from those areas to avoid to pay pp.

And on alternative it is too gamey to put units to different nationality command if the main command is not present for several months in area?

He is making big mistakes but which sometimes lead to short success. The hidden cost is that he is sacrificing future resources that will break him in a long run. Should i continue to play with him? And if yes how to limit the damage that was already done by avoiding this rule. How you would solve such situation?

< Message edited by armin -- 5/5/2012 6:34:46 PM >
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RE: Question about house rule - 5/6/2012 2:17:36 AM   
Hanzberger


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Do you mean Restricted units preparing for when they are {paid with PP's and free to move wherever} and become unrestricted?


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RE: Question about house rule - 5/6/2012 3:44:22 AM   
PaxMondo


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You need to clarify your HR.

I think you are referring to him putting units under unrestricted HQ's that haven't arrived yet.  Some players think this is ok, others not.  You need to clarify your HR as to how you want it to be. 

If you simply stated pay PP to move, many players would assume any HQ is valid whether arrived or not.

Some players want the HQ to be on the board before it can be used for transfer.  Others also want it to be of the correct type (no LCU's under an Air HQ and vice versa).  This all has be clarified in your HR.

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Post #: 3
RE: Question about house rule - 5/6/2012 3:52:12 AM   
Dan Nichols


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However, the Allies get some units that are attached to an HQ that has not arrived yet. I am thinking in particular to South Pacific. Japan might have the same thing occur.

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RE: Question about house rule - 5/6/2012 6:53:12 AM   
Puhis

 

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I think it's fine to use HQ that has not arrived yet. Command structure doesn't matter anyway.

I still wouldn't put infantry units under air HQ, but IMO it's OK to put air groups under land HQ. For example playing Japan, China area army doesn't even have air HQ until much later.

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Post #: 5
RE: Question about house rule - 5/6/2012 10:04:12 AM   
armin


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Well basicaly having national units in not existing hq is a problem as i found out or in hq of different nation. With this strategy allied player can start bombing mainland japan in december and january of 41 becouse US has already the ammount of B bombers that can couse the damage (transfering them from US) and japan player has absolutely no way how to stop it unless KB babysits the area then again bomber squad will fly 20 hexes away and KB never makes it in time.

First i got messages that lot of airfields from US to DEI are improving this is normal but then borneo invasion was slowed down after continious attacks from B bombers. Till miri airfield was build up invasion units were already damaged too much. Early japaneses fighters are mostly cousing damage to B bombers and have no range to escort bombers to hostile airfields. For example in january the 1st of 42, truk base got attacked from bombers launched in mainland australia - got trough entire cap and every scrambled fighter i got put on cap duty and bombed it. Lost a light carrier instantly and the cap damaged only two bombers.

So basicaly even the pilots were fresh, the B bomber durability and accuracy of the weapons coused the main destruction. So paying pp for transfering units to hq that are national and existing on grid is essential otherwise it breaks the game.

9 bombers managed to take out truk with 100 cap. 50 bombers were deployed at same time in borneo. We are not speaking here about early 43 or the late here but the starting month of the game when jap player is just taking borneo, manado and ternate.

< Message edited by armin -- 5/6/2012 10:10:15 AM >

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RE: Question about house rule - 5/6/2012 10:09:59 AM   
JocMeister

 

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I may be slow but I don´t get it? Even if you transfer a restricted unit to a HQ that hasn´t arrived wouldn´t you have to pay PPs for it?

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Post #: 7
RE: Question about house rule - 5/6/2012 10:17:56 AM   
armin


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Ofc you can but its not realistical. Imagine US army to scramble every bomber on mainland US and deliver it within month of the start of war to DEI. It took them two years to build that indrastrcture and still they wouldnt move most of the bombers even for training purposes to the war area. Or can you imagine that every US bomber squadron would serve under australian high command? Maybe a few for temporal period, but not entire army.

One non bomber example. He moved around 100 aircrafts to rangoon in the early days of december 41. I assume all were chinese stocked with chinese pilots. This is kinda gamebreaking. i didnt gave up, had heavy losses and forced him within two days to withdraw. So yes any situation can be handled but it completly changes the game. Or using allied ship as kamikadzes just becouse there are plenty of them. Japanese player will loose becouse AI selects only 1 air attack per squad. In reality they would attack till they would have any bombs and fuel left to destroy ships.

< Message edited by armin -- 5/6/2012 10:51:59 AM >

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RE: Question about house rule - 5/6/2012 1:31:32 PM   
JocMeister

 

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I honestly don´t see the problem? If he paid PPs for it whats the issue? You have so much more on map that whatever he concentrates will be easy for you to deal with. I put all my Buffaloes over Singapore. Took my opponent two Zero sweeps to kill them off. I think he was pretty happy I collected them on the same spot so he didn´t have to chase them around.

There arn´t 100 chinese aircraft on map. More like 10 and they are bi-planes...and 9 bombers can´t "take out" truk. Also Truk can´t be reached from Oz. I don´t think there are 50 bombers available on the whole map for the allied player in december 42. If there are most of them are probably Bolos and restriced to the WC.

I have never heard of any Allied player anywhere that was able to bomb mainland Japan in 41 or 42.

I think you might benefit from reading a few AARs. There are several available in the AAR section. Also might want to take a look at the allied pools of aircraft in late 41 and early 42. They are very, very thin. Just start up an AI game as the Allies a look at whats available. It almost nothing.

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RE: Question about house rule - 5/6/2012 3:28:26 PM   
armin


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In all respect i dont know about what game you are speaking. In witp ae you can upgrade planes like from day one. Chinese initial groups not upgraded start with 36 planes not counting full squadron strength after upgrade and bombers which is even more.

With 7 hits from 9 per squad im sure he can. There is around 75-80 B bombers from day one. thats just B bombers together with other bombers it would more then 150 for sure. From PM area you can reach truk.

Funny thing is that you are speaking about what cant happen in my game that is actualy happening instead I was asking for advice how to deal with the situation.

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RE: Question about house rule - 5/6/2012 4:13:57 PM   
JocMeister

 

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There are about 30 chinese fighter on map at the start of Scenario 1. All Bi-Planes. He get no replacements for those until the Lancer arrives in April or May 42. Then he get 12 per month. Thats pretty far from a 100... They all have around 20-30 experience. Even if there was 100 chinese pilots they can only be used in chinese airgroups. I havn´t tried but given the range of the bi-planes I´m not even sure you can get them to Rangoon?

You said Northen OZ. Closest base in Northen OZ is 31 hexes from Truk.

I don´t have the energy to count the available 4E available in the start but your opponent get 0 replacements for the D-model and I think 12 or 15 for the E-model. If he manged to concentrate them all in december I would be very impressed since most should be destroyed at Pearl and the Philipines in the first turns. The rest is on the West Coast.

All I´m saying is you really should read some AARs in the subforum. You will learn a lot from reading them and seeing how others deal with the first couple of months. You shouldn´t have these kind of problems this early.

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Post #: 11
RE: Question about house rule - 5/6/2012 4:34:13 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

Ofc you can but its not realistical


I perceive that the IJFB's view the Pre war build up to Scenario #2; Invade all of Alaska without a shift in US response ["yes the IJ are 400 miles from Seattle but Hitler first!"]; Invade all of India and still "Yes the IJ are the most threating horde in the world, but that Hitler guy is kind of nutty while those Japaneese guys are sort of likeable in a way" ... all very realistic ...

But the US does something that is out of sorts with let them have Burma and the DEI, Operation Wagonwheel , and Mac's romp and it's "not historical!"

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RE: Question about house rule - 5/6/2012 5:20:44 PM   
armin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

quote:

Ofc you can but its not realistical


I perceive that the IJFB's view the Pre war build up to Scenario #2; Invade all of Alaska without a shift in US response ["yes the IJ are 400 miles from Seattle but Hitler first!"]; Invade all of India and still "Yes the IJ are the most threating horde in the world, but that Hitler guy is kind of nutty while those Japaneese guys are sort of likeable in a way" ... all very realistic ...

But the US does something that is out of sorts with let them have Burma and the DEI, Operation Wagonwheel , and Mac's romp and it's "not historical!"


Making different moves is ok becouse repeating same steps as happened historicaly would be just boring. However the issue is to do stuff that realy could not happen. As for example using bomber train squads in the frontline. Or spamming cargo ships to protect target till its escapes. I comed to conclusion that i should cancel the pbem game since nobody was able to give proper advice how to deal with situation.

< Message edited by armin -- 5/6/2012 5:21:18 PM >

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RE: Question about house rule - 5/6/2012 5:35:13 PM   
Puhis

 

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PBEM game needs a good opponent who wants to play similar style game than you, and it's not exploiting the game engine. There's numerous ways to exploit it. Maybe you should find new opponent, and start game with PDU off so that every squadron have only one upgrade path?

But I have to say that if you're playing some of the "historical" scenarios and allies are beating you in the early 1942, it's not game's fault nor HRs fault...

And the reason why you didn't get proper advice is that it's still unclear what's the problem.

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RE: Question about house rule - 5/6/2012 6:01:53 PM   
obvert


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I've read through these posts and I can't figure out what you're really upset about. 100 fighters in Rangoon? That's the AVG + some British fighters. I believe one AVG group is under China Command, but the others are not.

If you're having trouble understanding how things are working read a few AARs from Dec 7 -30 and you'll begin to see patterns. The same things come up over and over. If you really want to 'get it' read a game that is AARed from both sides.

If you really want help, you need to give clear examples with specifics. If you put real info of actual situations in the post (plus AAR reports or screenshots), you will get more help than you need. If you keep jumping from one thought to another without real evidence of what you're talking about and get shirty when people ask you to clarify, people will start to think you're just trolling.

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RE: Question about house rule - 5/6/2012 7:56:45 PM   
msieving1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: armin

For example in january the 1st of 42, truk base got attacked from bombers launched in mainland australia



How? The nearest mainland Australia base is Cooktown, which is 34 hexes from Truk. The longest ranged Allied bomber in January 1942 is the B-17D, with an extended range of 22 hexes. Truk is well out of range from mainland Australia.

Allied bombers could reach Truk from Rabaul or Lae, but you should have no trouble capturing those bases.

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RE: Question about house rule - 5/6/2012 9:24:14 PM   
armin


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The rangoon i mentioned only as example. i wiped out 1/3 or 2/3 of his airforce since all those pilots are supposed to be in training units. Its bad becouse by his bad decisions he will lack firepower in later days. so the game will become boring as there will be no chalenge. Also the bombers. ok i lost some stuff on truk but he used his pilots that were supposed to be safely training. When i would arrive with support he would loose most of them. I was mainly agry becouse by his reckless strategy he was shortening the game. If he would follow at least somethink from reality he could put resistance later on. You cant do that with no pilots in training or spamming convoys all over the place.


And yes definitely only da babes in future for me with some good pre set rules.

Msieving i assume he started somewhere from PM area there are like 6 australian bases that are suitable. However. Yes i could muster force easily and take whole port moresby area. but japan players need to take DEI, Borneo, Philipines and Singapore first in december-january 41. I dont think its good for players to expand to australia in the first month of game time without fuel and supply backup.

< Message edited by armin -- 5/6/2012 9:28:42 PM >

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RE: Question about house rule - 5/7/2012 4:08:24 AM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

PBEM game needs a good opponent who wants to play similar style game than you, and it's not exploiting the game engine.
...

And the reason why you didn't get proper advice is that it's still unclear what's the problem.

+1

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RE: Question about house rule - 5/7/2012 1:31:18 PM   
SuluSea


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quote:

ORIGINAL: armin

Ofc you can but its not realistical. Imagine US army to scramble every bomber on mainland US and deliver it within month of the start of war to DEI. It took them two years to build that indrastrcture and still they wouldnt move most of the bombers even for training purposes to the war area.


Bergerud's Fire in the Sky lays out perfectly the prewar airfields that helped get B-17s to the Phillipines. If your opponent is spending much of his PPs on buying out bombers you'll not only benefit from that in other areas but benefit from your opponent flying them from poor airfields. Damaging those 4E's will help result in ops losses if those airfields aren't built up. If he's building them up before you capture them. It's win-win for you.

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RE: Question about house rule - 5/8/2012 6:05:51 AM   
Rusty1961

 

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quote:

For example in january the 1st of 42, truk base got attacked from bombers launched in mainland australia - got trough entire cap and every scrambled fighter i got put on cap duty and bombed it. Lost a light carrier instantly and the cap damaged only two bombers.



This comment right here pegged my bovine-fecal matter meter.

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RE: Question about house rule - 5/8/2012 5:36:46 PM   
Rob Brennan UK


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Please post screen shot or a copt from the combat reports about the 'mythical' Truk attack .. It seems highly unlikely if not down right impossible.

As for using AK's to screen combat TF's , I'd say that was a gamey move and you dont have the right opponent. But you really do need to back up wild claims with proof else we cannot help you.



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RE: Question about house rule - 5/8/2012 5:53:32 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob Brennan UK

Please post screen shot or a copt from the combat reports about the 'mythical' Truk attack .. It seems highly unlikely if not down right impossible.

As for using AK's to screen combat TF's , I'd say that was a gamey move and you dont have the right opponent. But you really do need to back up wild claims with proof else we cannot help you.




Particularly as the OP has claimed there are 6 bases suitable for the Fortresses to launch from. Very difficult to give any credence to that claim (plus all the other claims as well) when on 7 December 1941 there are only 2 Allied bases in the entire region capable of supporting any offensive strike missions at all, and those two are way short of supporting full strength 4E strikes.

Alfred

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RE: Question about house rule - 5/8/2012 6:13:17 PM   
Cannonfodder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: armin

In all respect i dont know about what game you are speaking. In witp ae you can upgrade planes like from day one. Chinese initial groups not upgraded start with 36 planes not counting full squadron strength after upgrade and bombers which is even more.

With 7 hits from 9 per squad im sure he can. There is around 75-80 B bombers from day one. thats just B bombers together with other bombers it would more then 150 for sure. From PM area you can reach truk.

Funny thing is that you are speaking about what cant happen in my game that is actualy happening instead I was asking for advice how to deal with the situation.


Actually, you can hit Truk with B17Ds at normal range from Rabaul. Solution? Invade it with KB support... There was a reason the Japanese expanded to the south..

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RE: Question about house rule - 5/9/2012 7:09:57 PM   
ALF1


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Hello,

Becouse we are speaking about me, the mythic opponent I would like to clarify. I do not want offend my opponent only ask for your oppinion becouse he accuse me be gamey. First what I would like to say I do not see anything gamey in my game but there could be different point of view which I would like to know. I will try to by specific to comments of my opponent.


1.Rangoon defence by hundert of plaine:
I pay PP to release AVG squadrons - I move them from CAF HQ(R) to the "China AIR taskForce" see picture - I do not thing is gamey They start in Burma and I keep them in Burma.

2."i wiped out 1/3 or 2/3 of his airforce since all those pilots are supposed to be in training units":
This is completlly out of reality. Picture I post is after this "wipedig out" you see 7:2 AIR kills and no killed pilot , same simmilar for other 2 AVG squadron.

See this air battle from combat report:

Morning Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 40 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 9
Ki-21-Ic Sally x 21
Ki-21-IIa Sally x 30
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 12
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 12



Allied aircraft
H81-A3 x 59
Buffalo I x 9


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-Ic Sally: 4 destroyed, 2 damaged
Ki-21-IIa Sally: 7 destroyed, 5 damaged
Ki-21-IIa Sally: 1 destroyed by flak

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
xAK Jaladuta, Bomb hits 1
xAKL Kwai Sang, Bomb hits 1, on fire
xAP Rohna, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
xAP Tilawa, Bomb hits 1, on fire
xAP Rajula, Bomb hits 1
xAP Santhia, Bomb hits 1


Allied ground losses:
5 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Port hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x Ki-21-IIa Sally bombing from 10000 feet
Port Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
17 x Ki-21-Ic Sally bombing from 10000 feet
Port Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
12 x Ki-21-IIa Sally bombing from 10000 feet
Port Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
AVG/1st Sqn with H81-A3 (5 airborne, 11 on standby, 11 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 29000 , scrambling fighters to 29000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 40 minutes
3 planes vectored on to bombers
AVG/2nd Sqn with H81-A3 (5 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 29000 , scrambling fighters to 29000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes
AVG/3rd Sqn with H81-A3 (5 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 29000 , scrambling fighters to 29000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes
3 planes vectored on to bombers
No.67 Sqn RAF with Buffalo I (3 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 29000 , scrambling fighters to 29000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
3 planes vectored on to bombers

Is there something to complain ? I put this quit big CAP becouse just arrived one division in Rangoon( initially planed for Singapore - now I do not remember its name)





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by ALF1 -- 5/9/2012 7:11:45 PM >

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Post #: 24
RE: Question about house rule - 5/9/2012 7:19:01 PM   
ALF1


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Truk AIR attack:

Cannonfodder is absolutely right it was attack from Rabaul by B-17D.

Morning Air attack on Truk , at 112,108

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 35 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 9
E13A1 Jake x 3



Allied aircraft
B-17D Fortress x 9


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-17D Fortress: 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
CVL Ryujo, Bomb hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage



Port fuel hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 10000 feet *
Port Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
2 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 10000 feet *
Port Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
1 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 10000 feet *
Port Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
1 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 10000 feet *
Port Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
2 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 10000 feet *
Port Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Hosho-1 with A5M4 Claude (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 6 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters to 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
Okamoto Det with A5M4 Claude (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Raid is overhead
17th Ku T-1 with E13A1 Jake (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Raid is overhead
Kiyokawa Maru-1 with E13A1 Jake (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Raid is overhead
Kiyokawa Maru-2 with E13A1 Jake (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Raid is overhead


I did it because Armin have all CV in DEI territory and he had approx 10 turn ago damaged CVL Ryujo after meeting with SARA near Rabaul.

So it was clear assumption to give him time to reach Truk and make the raid.

It is gamey or out or reality ? For me normal I use the opportunity I saw.

(in reply to ALF1)
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RE: Question about house rule - 5/9/2012 7:28:06 PM   
ALF1


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And last post with probably biggest complay from Armin. I moved all not restricted B-17 from PH, SF (from all they are already from beggining under not restricted HQ) and Luzon ( here I pay pp to release them) to Soerabaja and I use them for ground attack to slow down his attack mainly in Samarinda and Manado.

For me it is not gamey ( maiby not historical but we have no HR to be historical ) He probably thing there is gamey becouse there is now almost 80 B-17 but as I wrote him is because he decide to attack port of Manila by KB and my B-17 in PH and Luzon were not destroyed - but this was his decison. Probably I suprise him that I did not sit down and was not waiting from the begining. I start to be active.

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RE: Question about house rule - 5/9/2012 7:28:46 PM   
ALF1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ALF1

And last post with probably biggest complay from Armin. I moved all not restricted B-17 from PH, SF (they all are already from beggining under not restricted HQ) and Luzon ( here I pay pp to release them) to Soerabaja and I use them for ground attack to slow down his attack mainly in Samarinda and Manado.

For me it is not gamey ( maiby not historical but we have no HR to be historical ) He probably thing there is gamey becouse there is now almost 80 B-17 but as I wrote him is because he decide to attack port of Manila by KB and my B-17 in PH and Luzon were not destroyed - but this was his decison. Probably I suprise him that I did not sit down and was not waiting from the begining. I was active from beggining.



< Message edited by ALF1 -- 5/9/2012 7:29:57 PM >

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RE: Question about house rule - 5/9/2012 7:43:21 PM   
VSWG


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IMO there's nothing to complain about, ALF1. Some nice moves right there!

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Post #: 28
RE: Question about house rule - 5/9/2012 8:07:45 PM   
USS America


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From: Apex, NC, USA
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Indeed, I see absolutely nothing gamey in your moves.

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(in reply to VSWG)
Post #: 29
RE: Question about house rule - 5/9/2012 9:46:49 PM   
Atilla60


Posts: 69
Joined: 9/20/2006
From: Jutland, Denmark
Status: offline
I don't see anything gamey either.
As for the attack on Truk? Not bad, not bad at all.


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(in reply to USS America)
Post #: 30
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