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RE: Operation Barbarossa

 
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RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 7:28:05 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nate25


quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy


quote:

ORIGINAL: nate25

Ah, the S.A.I. 207. All wood construction, fast, well armed . . . if only Italy would've had one more year.



An airplane made of wood? I never knew such a thing existed.


There was quite a lot of it during the World Wars. Initially most aircraft were wood and fabric, later it became a matter of saving strategic materials.

The Mosquito, for example, was mostly wood. Good aircraft, too.

Warspite1

Good aircraft? Oh natester (shakes head) - the Wooden Wonder was, if I may make so bold, the dogs dangly bits

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Post #: 181
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 7:32:44 PM   
Lieste

 

Posts: 1608
Joined: 11/1/2008
Status: offline 		Hell yeah! Wood is a fantastic structural material. Unlike metal which tears from a small crack propagating, wood cared for properly (i.e. don't deploy Mosquitos to the Far East) will resist damage and wear much better. It is also lighter for it's strength than most materials, the only disadvantage being relative bulkiness and skill required to work it.

Most Soviet fighters had plywood (or their weird Shpon - which being resin impregnated was much heavier and also more brittle/less damage resistant than normal structural plywood in the Mossie etc. I think the Mosquito also used Balsa as a component of the ply-sandwich to add thickness and thus stiffness without as much weight.)

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Post #: 182
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 7:33:28 PM   
nate25


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Status: offline 		My favorites are the FB marks, but my mostest favorite is the B.IV, purely a fast bomber.

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Post #: 183
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 7:34:31 PM   
Lieste

 

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< Message edited by Lieste -- 5/9/2012 7:35:14 PM >

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Post #: 184
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 7:35:48 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lieste

I was (mistakenly) thinking of Glorious, which was Norway (right area, wrong purpose and year).

However we did have two carrier casualties from the Russian Convoys - Dasher (lost during working up in UK immediately after repairs) & Nabob (damaged and laid up - scrapped).

Also other losses in NA convoy escort.

It might not be easily quantifiable, but the opportunity cost of any operation is an important - no ...vital consideration.
Warspite1

Lieste! Nabob was damaged during the Operation Goodwood strike against Tirpitz and as you say, Dasher was sunk due to an internal explosion in the UK!

I think you are mixing two issues

a) what was the received / lost % - which is straightforward; what was lost / what was sent - this is simple maths.
b) the cost of an operation(s) or campaign given the advantage you are seeking to gain. This is subjective and depends on a whole host of factors - not least of which is to what extent you can take losses in pursuit of your objective. As I say, in the case of the Arctic convoys, that was for the British/Americans to decide - the Russians couldn't care less so long as they got their supplies. 1% is total and utter nonsense.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 5/9/2012 8:56:41 PM >

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Post #: 185
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 7:59:26 PM   
parusski


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quote:

mostly wood


HUHHUUUHU You said "WOOD"!!

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Post #: 186
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 8:12:12 PM   
nate25


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Status: offline 		HMMMHMMHMMM YEAH HMMHMMMM

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Post #: 187
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 8:36:38 PM   
parusski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nate25

HMMMHMMHMMM YEAH HMMHMMMM


A photo of warspite1 and nate25






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

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Post #: 188
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 8:53:51 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski


quote:

ORIGINAL: nate25

HMMMHMMHMMM YEAH HMMHMMMM


A photo of warspite1 and nate25





Warspite1

Yeah - I heard nate was AC/DC (allegedly)

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Post #: 189
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 8:55:15 PM   
warspite1


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Status: offline 		Anyways - can we get back to the subject in hand please?

(snigger, snigger, pfnarr, pfnarr)

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Post #: 190
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 9:04:35 PM   
nate25


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski


quote:

ORIGINAL: nate25

HMMMHMMHMMM YEAH HMMHMMMM


A photo of warspite1 and nate25





Warspite1

Yeah - I heard nate was AC/DC (allegedly)


Well, it is true I enjoy both AC/DC and Metallica. But I can assure you my current does not alternate.


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Post #: 191
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 9:05:47 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nate25


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski


quote:

ORIGINAL: nate25

HMMMHMMHMMM YEAH HMMHMMMM


A photo of warspite1 and nate25





Warspite1

Yeah - I heard nate was AC/DC (allegedly)


Well, it is true I enjoy both AC/DC and Metallica. But I can assure you my current does not alternate.

Warspite1




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Post #: 192
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 9:06:18 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

I am currently reading Operation Barbarossa. One thing I am not clear on is why Hitler attacked Russia in the first place. If anyone can enlighten me I'd be grateful.

The book is detailed but seems a little biased. It makes the Germans seem like a bunch of infighting buffoons and I know that even though they had their issues they were not as incompetent as the book makes them out to be.

The Stalin purges of 37. Dang, that was brutal!


you might try "Ostkrieg. Hitler's War of Extermination in the East" for a serious fleshing out of the reasons why.

An interesting aspect of this work is that while many other histories tend to paint Barbarossa as a blunder and/or an unnecessary gamble, this book argues the case that Hitler was compelled to attack eastward for economic and geopolitical reasons. Way too much in the book to adequately summarize, but several key points discussed were the German economic picture which was stunted and arguably further burdened by the very lands it occupied (particularily Northern France), Ideological drives....the Lebansraum expansion that would make Germany a global power. A third factor was geopolitical. Hitler was well aware that eventually the US would come into the picture and if it joined with England and other powers before Germany could increase it's power base they would be at a disadvantage.

It certainly made me think and question some "givens" i had held true for decades...the hallmark of a good book. It also confirmed in my mind the basic premise of the war itself.

A depressing read, but worth it if you can get through it.

(in reply to ilovestrategy)
Post #: 193
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 9:10:37 PM   
parusski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

I am currently reading Operation Barbarossa. One thing I am not clear on is why Hitler attacked Russia in the first place. If anyone can enlighten me I'd be grateful.

The book is detailed but seems a little biased. It makes the Germans seem like a bunch of infighting buffoons and I know that even though they had their issues they were not as incompetent as the book makes them out to be.

The Stalin purges of 37. Dang, that was brutal!


you might try "Ostkrieg. Hitler's War of Extermination in the East" for a serious fleshing out of the reasons why.

An interesting aspect of this work is that while many other histories tend to paint Barbarossa as a blunder and/or an unnecessary gamble, this book argues the case that Hitler was compelled to attack eastward for economic and geopolitical reasons. Way too much in the book to adequately summarize, but several key points discussed were the German economic picture which was stunted and arguably further burdened by the very lands it occupied (particularily Northern France), Ideological drives....the Lebansraum expansion that would make Germany a global power. A third factor was geopolitical. Hitler was well aware that eventually the US would come into the picture and if it joined with England and other powers before Germany could increase it's power base they would be at a disadvantage.

It certainly made me think and question some "givens" i had held true for decades...the hallmark of a good book. It also confirmed in my mind the basic premise of the war itself.

A depressing read, but worth it if you can get through it.


I read this book a few months ago and enjoyed it immensely.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 194
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 9:14:47 PM   
nate25


Posts: 1239
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From: Middletown Ohio
Status: offline 		To put it very simply, the two biggest kids on the block are gonna fight. Sooner or later.

For me, all we've hashed out is that ALL information is very subjective.

I just need a vehicle to try my theories out. (A re-worked WitE )

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Post #: 195
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 9:15:41 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 11037
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From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

I am currently reading Operation Barbarossa. One thing I am not clear on is why Hitler attacked Russia in the first place. If anyone can enlighten me I'd be grateful.

The book is detailed but seems a little biased. It makes the Germans seem like a bunch of infighting buffoons and I know that even though they had their issues they were not as incompetent as the book makes them out to be.

The Stalin purges of 37. Dang, that was brutal!


you might try "Ostkrieg. Hitler's War of Extermination in the East" for a serious fleshing out of the reasons why.

An interesting aspect of this work is that while many other histories tend to paint Barbarossa as a blunder and/or an unnecessary gamble, this book argues the case that Hitler was compelled to attack eastward for economic and geopolitical reasons. Way too much in the book to adequately summarize, but several key points discussed were the German economic picture which was stunted and arguably further burdened by the very lands it occupied (particularily Northern France), Ideological drives....the Lebansraum expansion that would make Germany a global power. A third factor was geopolitical. Hitler was well aware that eventually the US would come into the picture and if it joined with England and other powers before Germany could increase it's power base they would be at a disadvantage.

It certainly made me think and question some "givens" i had held true for decades...the hallmark of a good book. It also confirmed in my mind the basic premise of the war itself.

A depressing read, but worth it if you can get through it.


I read this book a few months ago and enjoyed it immensely.
Warspite1

How much was made of the German economic situation? I recall reading previously that the eceonomy was becoming a real issue for the Nazi leadership - but I was too young to fully appreciate the arguments and have never seen a book since that covers this aspect.

_____________________________

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Post #: 196
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 9:20:48 PM   
nate25


Posts: 1239
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From: Middletown Ohio
Status: offline 		The Germans were on a peace-time basis until what? Late '43? Early '44? I think that's significant.

Raw mat'l is another matter.

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Post #: 197
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 9:43:29 PM   
parusski


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quote:

"Ostkrieg. Hitler's War of Extermination in the East"


The author went beyond what is normally written about. One example is Operation Typhoon. We all know about the horrible winter conditions, mud, Siberian divisions. But here is an analysis of the enormous physical and mental exhaustion of German troops, the lice and the filth, all connected with what is usually discussed. Also reviewed is Hitler's idea to be on par with or exceed the United States' economic capability(odd considering Hitler thought America decadent?). Hitler thought he could achieve this with the vast resources in Russia. There is a great analysis of the German home front as the war progressed, which led to unthinkable things such as Hungarian Jews being imported into Germany for labor.

Finally, Dr. Fritz shows how the Germans never had the logistic capabilities or the strategic resources to defeat the Russians. Fritz does an outstanding job of showing that the Germans just were not strong enough to win if Russia did not simply give up at some point. And he contends the Germans lost the war by December 1941. This is a must read for most of us on this forum.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 198
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 9:48:23 PM   
nate25


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Status: offline 		I'll read it, for sure.

But for me it's never been about the Germans "winning" the whole thing. It's always been about an exhausted standstill, given some variables.

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Post #: 199
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 9:58:03 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nate25

I'll read it, for sure.

But for me it's never been about the Germans "winning" the whole thing. It's always been about an exhausted standstill, given some variables.
Warspite1

Yep - just ordered it


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Post #: 200
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 10:07:01 PM   
parusski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: nate25

I'll read it, for sure.

But for me it's never been about the Germans "winning" the whole thing. It's always been about an exhausted standstill, given some variables.
Warspite1

Yep - just ordered it



It is a very enjoyable book and both of you will like it. Nate you will like the "exhausted standstill" aspect, the author really makes it felt, and it is horrible.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

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Post #: 201
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 10:10:34 PM   
sulla05

 

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Status: offline 		Back to the wooden planes.

I believe the British tested cannon fire against both metal and wood airframes and found that the wooen ones withstood the cannon fire better.

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Post #: 202
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 10:27:00 PM   
nate25


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Status: offline 		Anyone own any Russian firearms? The furniture on an AK/SKS/M91/30 is a perfect example of how strong engineered wood can be.

Some made the comment not to send Mosquitos to the Far East, but they served there. I'm not aware of any more failures in that climate than any other.

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Post #: 203
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 10:44:49 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nate25

Anyone own any Russian firearms? The furniture on an AK/SKS/M91/30 is a perfect example of how strong engineered wood can be.

Some made the comment not to send Mosquitos to the Far East, but they served there. I'm not aware of any more failures in that climate than any other.

It was the glue that was the problem in the far east and not the wood in itself.

Cut from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosquito_bomber

"In November 1944, several crashes occurred in the Far East. At first, it was thought these were as a result of wing structure failures. The casein glue, it was said, cracked when exposed to extreme heat. This caused the upper surfaces to "lift" from the main spar. During the ensuing investigation, it was concluded that there were construction defects found at two plants, Hatfield and Coventry, where it was found that the "Standard of glueing...left much to be desired”.[74] However, the main reason for the failures, the Air Ministry concluded on 1 January 1945, was the weather conditions in Asia, thereby endorsing the view of Major Hereward de Havilland, leading the investigation. To solve the problem, a sheet of plywood was set along the span of the wing to seal the entire length of the skin joint along the main spar and the casein glue was replaced by formaldehyde, which was better able to resist deterioration in high humidity conditions."

< Message edited by Orm -- 5/9/2012 10:45:15 PM >

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Post #: 204
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 10:54:15 PM   
nate25


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Status: offline 		Thanks, Orm. Very good. That's my learning nugget for the day.

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Post #: 205
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/10/2012 1:03:22 AM   
shunwick


Posts: 1336
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quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski

quote:

"Ostkrieg. Hitler's War of Extermination in the East"


The author went beyond what is normally written about. One example is Operation Typhoon. We all know about the horrible winter conditions, mud, Siberian divisions. But here is an analysis of the enormous physical and mental exhaustion of German troops, the lice and the filth, all connected with what is usually discussed. Also reviewed is Hitler's idea to be on par with or exceed the United States' economic capability(odd considering Hitler thought America decadent?). Hitler thought he could achieve this with the vast resources in Russia. There is a great analysis of the German home front as the war progressed, which led to unthinkable things such as Hungarian Jews being imported into Germany for labor.

Finally, Dr. Fritz shows how the Germans never had the logistic capabilities or the strategic resources to defeat the Russians. Fritz does an outstanding job of showing that the Germans just were not strong enough to win if Russia did not simply give up at some point. And he contends the Germans lost the war by December 1941. This is a must read for most of us on this forum.



Thanks for that. I shall check out the library asap.

Best wishes,
Steve

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Post #: 206
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/10/2012 1:14:14 AM   
SLAAKMAN


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quote:

Finally, Dr. Fritz shows how the Germans never had the logistic capabilities or the strategic resources to defeat the Russians. Fritz does an outstanding job of showing that the Germans just were not strong enough to win if Russia did not simply give up at some point. And he contends the Germans lost the war by December 1941. This is a must read for most of us on this forum.

We can simulate this question in a WiF campaign easily. Without the US being fully involved, every campaign Ive seen results in a stalemate. I am so itching to get another one started!!

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Post #: 207
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/10/2012 1:29:34 AM   
sulla05

 

Posts: 954
Joined: 1/11/2005
Status: offline 		The Germans built there own " Moskito " out of wood also. By all accounts it was a fine plane.

But the Allies bombed the factory where the glue was made and apparently the glue was never able to be reproduced.

The plane was a TA-154, the TA standing for Kurt Tank.

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Post #: 208
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/10/2012 4:43:40 AM   
ilovestrategy


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Post #: 209
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/10/2012 6:00:29 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sulla05

The Germans built there own " Moskito " out of wood also. By all accounts it was a fine plane.

But the Allies bombed the factory where the glue was made and apparently the glue was never able to be reproduced.

The plane was a TA-154, the TA standing for Kurt Tank.
Warspite1

In which case why was it not the KT-154


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Post #: 210
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