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RE: Operation Barbarossa

 
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RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 12:43:03 AM   
rogo727


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quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski


quote:

ORIGINAL: sulla05

Glantz is hardly an author to use to back up many things. Most people consider his books " written from the Soviet point of view ".

They are good reads and full of information but their slant is obvious.


I am not sure that "most people" do consider the books slanted. The west, for decades, had a "slant". And that was all about, well, the west. It has not been that long ago that Soviet archives were opened to western writers. Much has been learned, especially in the areas of operations and strategy. One big discovery has been that the Soviets did not constantly use human waves. The Russians did use those tactics, especially early in the war, but it did not take long until more sophisticated battle plans were being used. The west only knew of a war in Russia in an abstract sense. There was no real understanding of the space or numbers involved. But there was constant cheer-leading(and rightfully so) of what "our boys" are doing to win against the "Nazis". And when the war ended all the books about the war in Russia were written from the German point of view. And that point of view was slanted. The Germans wanted to prove to the world that the Russians were clumsy, stupid, wasteful...and Germany lost because of Mr. Frost or that "corporal".

The point is the West really had no idea that Russia was as much a sleeping giant as America was. And until recently, I too always thought in terms of "America won the war". America did win; totally against Japan. Against Germany, we won in France and Western Germany. And yes we helped speed up the Russian advance, but...

Russia a sleeping giant? I don't think so. Not even close. Like I said before the day Germany surrendered is the day the soviet union began its decline. The USSR could either make bombs or feed its babies. Not both. Vodka ,women and weapons are the largest exports . I have to correct you when you say most books were written from the German point of view? Seriously I chuckled when I read that. You sound like a revisionist historian. What's next from you? The American civil war wasn't about slavery at all but states rights, was the ONLY reason why that war was fought. I can't take you seriously anymore.

< Message edited by rogo727 -- 5/9/2012 12:49:25 AM >


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Post #: 151
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 1:32:55 AM   
SLAAKMAN


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quote:

As Ambrose wrote in THE seminal: WHO REALLY WON THE WAR IN EUROPE? "Because of the pitiful state of education in America and Britain, westerners have the retarded idea that had aid not been given to Russia, Germany would have rolled all the way to Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky, a mere 8,600 kilometers from Berlin. But this was not possible. Sensible, intelligent people understand that Russia had the willpower and arms to stop the Nazi horde. The Soviet Union was so mighty that they only used 10% of their industrial capacity to build the machinery of war. Besides, less than 1% of all aid promised actually reached the Soviets".

There, no better authority than Ambrose.

Is this a joke? If not then it might as well be. Ambrose??? Parruski....there is only one way for you to redeem yourself. You will stop everything in your life short of eating & breathing to repair this Van Dammage. Meet me on the Fields of Glory before your army rots away!!


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Post #: 152
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 1:43:02 AM   
sulla05

 

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I am not sure who you are arguing with Parusski..

I am not saying that the war in Russia was ever going to be a walk-over or that the Russians didn't fight well in the end.

I also never stated that without the Western allied help they would have fallen.

I do however take issue with " The Soviet Union was so mighty that they only used 10% of their industrial capacity to build the machinery of war. Besides, less than 1% of all aid promised actually reached the Soviets". I simply refuse to believe that Russia only used 10% of their industrial capacity in WWII. I am not sure about the 1% on lend-lease but I can look that up.

Think on it. If the above were correct, Russia by only using 20-30% of their industrial might ( a 100-200% increase ) would have been able to take Germany out in a year and taken all of Europe and China with them.

For Russia as Germany it was a fight to the death with everyone in the end using 100% of their resources to end the war.

As far as my posts about books. I do not and probably will never understand why some writers put their own thoughts and ideas into history books. State the facts and use all the material for the reader to come up with his own. It is like being asked the trick question in english class. " What do you think the author was thinking or trying to convey"? Then when you give your opinion you are told it is wrong.



< Message edited by sulla05 -- 5/9/2012 1:49:14 AM >


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Post #: 153
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 8:35:55 AM   
HanBarca


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Slaak, your PM box is full, probably cluttered by propaganda leaflets about the new wonderful german colonial houses around Velikie Luki

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Post #: 154
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 4:46:00 PM   
SLAAKMAN


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quote:

Slaak, your PM box is full, probably cluttered by propaganda leaflets about the new wonderful german colonial houses around Velikie Luki

Add to that the brochures for beachfront oil properties on the Caspian Sea sold to Italian investors!




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Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
— Winston Churchill

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Post #: 155
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 4:56:36 PM   
nate25


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Ah, the S.A.I. 207. All wood construction, fast, well armed . . . if only Italy would've had one more year.

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Post #: 156
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 5:18:06 PM   
SLAAKMAN


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quote:

Ah, the S.A.I. 207. All wood construction, fast, well armed . . . if only Italy would've had one more year.

If only Id been Il Duce!! Soon I will be!!!





Attachment (1)

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Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
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Post #: 157
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 5:24:27 PM   
nate25


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Really makes me want to break out an actual real wargame.

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Post #: 158
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 5:25:40 PM   
SLAAKMAN


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NEVER FEAR, VASSAL IS HERE!!!
www.vasalengine.org

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Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
— Winston Churchill

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Post #: 159
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 5:35:50 PM   
nate25


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Parusski, is it possible that Ambrose was on a BPB binge when he wrote about only 1%
of LendLease aid reaching Russia?

I only ask because he was a well-known addict of the substance, and the figures I have of LL aid reaching Russia is 93% arrived, 7% lost.

What do you think? Possible?

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Post #: 160
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 5:43:09 PM   
Lieste

 

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But how much supply was consumed to move that 93% that arrived...

I can send two strawberries by first class flights to Dayton but it will cost a hell of a lot more than buying a punnet in your local Store, or growing your own. Not to mention you'd have to drive the 3 hour round trip to collect them.

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Post #: 161
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 5:45:40 PM   
parusski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nate25

Parusski, is it possible that Ambrose was on a BPB binge when he wrote about only 1%
of LendLease aid reaching Russia?

I only ask because he was a well-known addict of the substance, and the figures I have of LL aid reaching Russia is 93% arrived, 7% lost.

What do you think? Possible?


Oh it is highly possible that he was. Orm and warspite1 have an ever greater understanding of Ambrose, both having read all 3,706 books he wrote. It is instructive to view the Peanut Brittle thread here on Matrix General Discussion forum to see many, many quotes from Ambrose.

Of course I have read all but a few of his books and let me leave you with one quote, from the 1977 HOW I GOT TO KNOW EVERYTHING! - "It is becoming widely known that I have attained a level of knowing stuff that other people will never reach. As of this writing I have read over 12,000 books. Of course, eating Peanut Brittle three times a day has made my brain really big. It is common knowledge in the medical field that eating 6lbs of PB every day will make a person really smart. But this information has been kept from the general public."

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Post #: 162
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 5:46:54 PM   
parusski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

NEVER FEAR, VASSAL IS HERE!!!
www.vasalengine.org


How do we have time to play with you...given all the time we waste here. Plus I am now absorbed with CoH.

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Post #: 163
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 5:55:30 PM   
nate25


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Not 3 hrs., but an hour or more definitely.

Let's back up a bit. Not sure what you're driving at, Lieste. Forgive my not understanding here.

Also, just to be clear, "Ambrose" is a fictional author we joke about here in the General Forums. He's been referenced in several threads, and not to be taken seriously, as I think some of Parusski's allusions to his "writings" have been. Just a fun joke to be added to by all. I do not seriously think Parusski believes less than 1% of LendLease ever reached Russia.

So Lieste, please explain to the layman (me) what you mean.

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Post #: 164
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 6:00:04 PM   
parusski


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quote:

Parusski believes less than 1% of LendLease ever reached Russia.


NO, I know that no one in the know knows what I know.

So, there.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

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Post #: 165
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 6:14:35 PM   
SLAAKMAN


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quote:

Parusski believes less than 1% of LendLease ever reached Russia.

(He is correct. I filched the other 99% & I am the <1% that controls the worlds condom supply).

quote:

How do we have time to play with you...given all the time we waste here. Plus I am now absorbed with CoH

To resolve this trancendental enigma I suggest that you consume 1 milligram of Bella Donna Elixir while meditating in the Lotus Position as you torque.


_____________________________

Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
— Winston Churchill

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Post #: 166
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 6:16:35 PM   
Lieste

 

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Ah, well I obviously missed the 'history'. If 1000 trucks were shipped to Russia, and 70 were lost, it doesn't mean that the 'delivery' is 93% - because the tonnage of ships needed to move the trucks, the fuel expended moving the trucks and ships, and then returning the ships for the next journey, the tonnage of ships lost and needing replacement must all be added to the 'expenditure' that moved the 930 trucks.

With all this considered a 'delivery rate' of 93% is obviously ludicrous, and 1% might be plausible.. is all.

(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 167
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 6:27:04 PM   
parusski


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From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lieste

Ah, well I obviously missed the 'history'. If 1000 trucks were shipped to Russia, and 70 were lost, it doesn't mean that the 'delivery' is 93% - because the tonnage of ships needed to move the trucks, the fuel expended moving the trucks and ships, and then returning the ships for the next journey, the tonnage of ships lost and needing replacement must all be added to the 'expenditure' that moved the 930 trucks.

With all this considered a 'delivery rate' of 93% is obviously ludicrous, and 1% might be plausible.. is all.


And it is as equally plausible that SLAAK(ER) ever speaks logically for long. Or that he controls any condoms.

Also, moving 1000 trucks means the consumption of 1,250,500 tonnes of Peanut Brittle. The actual delivery of 930 trucks is at variance with how much we know the green skinned one filched.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

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Post #: 168
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 6:34:29 PM   
nate25


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Well put. Completely clear now. Logistically and financially that makes perfect sense.

Still I think even if it's 1% actually delivered, the overall metric is decieving, yes? It implies that the materials were almost unnecessary and trivial.

Sort of like unemployment in the United States is "only" 8.2% (or whatever it is this day).

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Post #: 169
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 6:37:17 PM   
parusski


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quote:

Sort of like unemployment in the United States is "only" 8.2%


Yeah, but add back the millions who have dropped outta the job market and we are looking at something close to 10.5%(Wall Street Journal)!!

Anywho, I am glad I cleared up the confusion over the delivery of 1,000 trucks to Russia.

Let's not forget SLAAK(ER)'s contribution. hehe

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

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Post #: 170
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 6:40:42 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lieste

Ah, well I obviously missed the 'history'. If 1000 trucks were shipped to Russia, and 70 were lost, it doesn't mean that the 'delivery' is 93% - because the tonnage of ships needed to move the trucks, the fuel expended moving the trucks and ships, and then returning the ships for the next journey, the tonnage of ships lost and needing replacement must all be added to the 'expenditure' that moved the 930 trucks.

With all this considered a 'delivery rate' of 93% is obviously ludicrous, and 1% might be plausible.. is all.
Warspite1

Lieste not true.

Why do you need to take into account ships lost/oil spent in transport when calculating the amount of supplies received vs the amount sent? We are talking purely supplies sent to the USSR. It's no concern of the the Soviets who (un)gratefully receive their 930 trucks what it has cost for them to get there. Quite what the loss of ships/men on the journey has to do with it I don't know...

Are you getting confused with, for example, the problems of the Afrika Korps? Italians transport say 300 tons of oil to Tripoli for use by the Axis armies. The fact that x% of that oil is consumed in getting from Tripoli to the frontline by road IS important, although even then, if you are looking at the % received (in Africa) vs the % spent, it is immaterial whether any ships or oil were lost on route...

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Post #: 171
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 6:41:21 PM   
nate25


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quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski

quote:

Sort of like unemployment in the United States is "only" 8.2%


Yeah, but add back the millions who have dropped outta the job market and we are looking at something close to 10.5%(Wall Street Journal)!!

Yes, this what I meant by "only".

Anywho, I am glad I cleared up the confusion over the delivery of 1,000 trucks to Russia.

Let's not forget SLAAK(ER)'s contribution. hehe



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Post #: 172
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 6:44:30 PM   
nate25


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Lieste, are you referring to the overall cap installed by Congress ($1,300,000,000) for LendLease?

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Post #: 173
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 6:52:33 PM   
Lieste

 

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Course it's true. If materials that could deliver 100,000 trucks to the parking lot of the vehicle factory are consumed getting 930 to the end-user (probably close if you include all the fuel/transport/escorts/their fuel and losses etc) then the useful supply ratio is about 1%.

To the recipient 930 are received, out of 1000 expected, but the sender needs a far higher effort to get those vehicles delivered. One lost ship is hundreds/thousands of 'trucks', and a ship carrying trucks can't be used for anything else till it is back after the round trip, and needs fuel/crew/escort etc..

What were the merchant loss rates on the North Cape convoys? Escorts? We lost at least one Carrier up there. How many ships were lost to U-Boats.
Not saying there was any alternative, or that it was a bad choice... just that 1 truck costs a damn sight more than in peace time, or the cost of building that 1 truck.

(Mind you the trucks were useful, the 'tanks' we sent, plus assorted small-arms ~ less so though the quality did improve towards the end of the war - things that were useful also included AA guns, radios, radar and similar 'tech').

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Post #: 174
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 7:00:50 PM   
nate25


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. . . And 2,000 locomotives, 11,000 rail cars, literally hundreds of thousands of trucks, and jeeps, well over a million tonnes of foodstuffs . . . plus all you mentioned . . .

Just as one small point of perspective, the Sovs built a grand total of 92 locomotives during the war.

Other things were more pressing, of course. But take away what Britain and the US sent, and thing are a LOT more dire.

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Post #: 175
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 7:01:12 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lieste

Course it's true. If materials that could deliver 100,000 trucks to the parking lot of the vehicle factory are consumed getting 930 to the end-user (probably close if you include all the fuel/transport/escorts/their fuel and losses etc) then the useful supply ratio is about 1%.

To the recipient 930 are received, out of 1000 expected, but the sender needs a far higher effort to get those vehicles delivered. One lost ship is hundreds/thousands of 'trucks', and a ship carrying trucks can't be used for anything else till it is back after the round trip, and needs fuel/crew/escort etc..

What were the merchant loss rates on the North Cape convoys? Escorts? We lost at least one Carrier up there. How many ships were lost to U-Boats.
Not saying there was any alternative, or that it was a bad choice... just that 1 truck costs a damn sight more than in peace time, or the cost of building that 1 truck.

(Mind you the trucks were useful, the 'tanks' we sent, plus assorted small-arms ~ less so though the quality did improve towards the end of the war - things that were useful also included AA guns, radios, radar and similar 'tech').
Warspite1

Looks like we shall agree to disagree. I cannot understand the point, or even if it made sense to me, how you would even attempt to calculate a loss/delivered rate, factoring in not only ships/men lost en route, but now you are suggesting escorts AND transports - even if not lost as they are being used for supply to USSR purposes and not for something else

BTW what carrier did "we" lose?? I assume you mean American, but I can't think of one, and the British certainly didn't (unless my memory is fading in my frail dotage)....

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Post #: 176
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 7:07:45 PM   
nate25


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lieste

Course it's true. If materials that could deliver 100,000 trucks to the parking lot of the vehicle factory are consumed getting 930 to the end-user (probably close if you include all the fuel/transport/escorts/their fuel and losses etc) then the useful supply ratio is about 1%.

To the recipient 930 are received, out of 1000 expected, but the sender needs a far higher effort to get those vehicles delivered. One lost ship is hundreds/thousands of 'trucks', and a ship carrying trucks can't be used for anything else till it is back after the round trip, and needs fuel/crew/escort etc..

What were the merchant loss rates on the North Cape convoys? Escorts? We lost at least one Carrier up there. How many ships were lost to U-Boats.
Not saying there was any alternative, or that it was a bad choice... just that 1 truck costs a damn sight more than in peace time, or the cost of building that 1 truck.

(Mind you the trucks were useful, the 'tanks' we sent, plus assorted small-arms ~ less so though the quality did improve towards the end of the war - things that were useful also included AA guns, radios, radar and similar 'tech').
Warspite1

Looks like we shall agree to disagree. I cannot understand the point, or even if it made sense to me, how you would even attempt to calculate a loss/delivered rate, factoring in not only ships/men lost en route, but now you are suggesting escorts AND transports - even if not lost as they are being used for supply to USSR purposes and not for something else

BTW what carrier did "we" lose?? I assume you mean American, but I can't think of one, and the British certainly didn't (unless my memory is fading in my frail dotage)....


That's why I wondered if he had a formula to take it out of the $1.3 B allotted.


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Post #: 177
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 7:13:12 PM   
Lieste

 

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I was (mistakenly) thinking of Glorious, which was Norway (right area, wrong purpose and year).

However we did have two carrier casualties from the Russian Convoys - Dasher (lost during working up in UK immediately after repairs) & Nabob (damaged and laid up - scrapped).

Also other losses in NA convoy escort.

It might not be easily quantifiable, but the opportunity cost of any operation is an important - no ...vital consideration.

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Post #: 178
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 7:21:21 PM   
ilovestrategy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nate25

Ah, the S.A.I. 207. All wood construction, fast, well armed . . . if only Italy would've had one more year.



An airplane made of wood? I never knew such a thing existed.

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Post #: 179
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/9/2012 7:25:53 PM   
nate25


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy


quote:

ORIGINAL: nate25

Ah, the S.A.I. 207. All wood construction, fast, well armed . . . if only Italy would've had one more year.



An airplane made of wood? I never knew such a thing existed.


There was quite a lot of it during the World Wars. Initially most aircraft were wood and fabric, later it became a matter of saving strategic materials.

The Mosquito, for example, was mostly wood. Good aircraft, too.


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