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RE: Operation Barbarossa

 
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RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/7/2012 1:07:22 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HanBarca

quote:

Warspite1

That is certainly true at the start of Barbarossa, but less and less so by the time of Kursk. I have read that more Germans were lost/captured in Tunisia than were lost/captured at Stalingrad.


Could be, but:
- Most of the Tunisia losses were Italian troops
- the total number of Axis losses (KIA + captured) in Stalingrad was 841,000 compared to 300,000 in tunisia
Warspite11

Sorry, I was just trying to make the point that the German commitment to shore up North Africa after El-Alamein was considerable - but yes I had not allowed for the fact that there would have been a large number of Italian troops there. What was the German commitment at that time 4-5 divisions?

Edit: can't spell

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 5/7/2012 1:08:17 PM >


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Post #: 91
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/7/2012 1:16:04 PM   
HanBarca


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quote:

Warspite11

Sorry, I was just trying to make the point that the German commitment to shore up North Africa after El-Alamein was considerable - but yes I had not allowed for the fact that there would have been a large number of Italian troops there. What was the German commitment at that time 4-5 divisions?

Edit: can't spell


I cannot find any detailed figures but I presume 4-5 divisions is realistic....the remains of the AK plus 3 new german division brought mostly by airlift

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Post #: 92
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/7/2012 1:40:06 PM   
nate25


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quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski


quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

I think we are all responsible to talk about these things without starting a flame war? We all share a comment interest in history right? I have spent my whole life reading and studying German history in Ww2.


Oh nate25 was not really talking about me, or you-nate25 is our buddy. But every now and then I get smashed for something. Been that way for nearly 12 years. I really don't care. As you said, we are adults, right?

That's a rap folks, exit stage left...


Steiner's right, Rogo, definitely not directed at any of what I call our "regulars". But there's a lot of folks out there that have had a lot of years of brainwashing as far as soc!@%ism and true Russian capability is concerned.

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Post #: 93
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/7/2012 4:07:28 PM   
shunwick


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HanBarca

quote:

HanBarca,

Still, 20-30% is very nearly another army group and what about air power? Have you got four army groups in the line or three with a fourth in reserve? What are your objectives for the first campaigning season? Leningrad and Moscow I understand but what about Army Group South?


For air forces, I mean 20 - 30% more of everything
The 1941 campaign objectives could be Leningrad - Moscow - Rostov, with most of the "new" army group assigned south.....






You know, I don't think this works. If the Red Army is not strategically surprised then Army Group North and Army Group Centre are going to have a tougher time capturing Leningrad and Moscow respectively than they did in the real campaign.

Best wishes,
Steve

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Post #: 94
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/7/2012 4:47:47 PM   
ilovestrategy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


Edit: can't spell



Nate will never let you live this down.

And Steiner, at my age I ALWAYS need a nap!

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Post #: 95
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/7/2012 5:17:01 PM   
british exil


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HanBarca

quote:

What about the satellites - Romania, Hungary and Italy? Would equipping these guys (assuming it was possible) with decent tanks, artillery etc be sufficient or were their problems more than just poor equipment?


Italian army problems were surely not only about equipment.....I mean, we weren't able to defeat Greece.


Hitler would have been beter advised to attack Italy ASAP, taken control of the country. No more desert warfare no debacle in Greece, more troops for Rusia.

Thay way he could have attacked the SU way before he even thought about it.

(This post is not meant as a serious idea)


Mat

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Post #: 96
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/7/2012 5:41:43 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: british exil


quote:

ORIGINAL: HanBarca

quote:

What about the satellites - Romania, Hungary and Italy? Would equipping these guys (assuming it was possible) with decent tanks, artillery etc be sufficient or were their problems more than just poor equipment?


Italian army problems were surely not only about equipment.....I mean, we weren't able to defeat Greece.


Hitler would have been beter advised to attack Italy ASAP, taken control of the country. No more desert warfare no debacle in Greece, more troops for Rusia.

Thay way he could have attacked the SU way before he even thought about it.

(This post is not meant as a serious idea)


Mat
Warspite1

Sounds sensible to me

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Post #: 97
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/7/2012 5:42:45 PM   
rogo727


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HanBarca


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727


quote:

ORIGINAL: HanBarca

quote:

Only in a marginal way. I am ready for the attacks this will bring, but here goes. The Soviet Union defeated Germany. Utterly and completely.


Agreed. From June 1941 to the first months 1943 basically the whole German army was engaged on the Eastern front, and it wasn't enough.

That's stating the obvious outside the African campaign this was the only front during that time
Warspite1

Well not exactly - particularly into 1942/43 - there were increasingly large numbers of troops in North Africa (later Italy), Norway and France - not to mention vast amounts of artillery and men within Germany to defend against bombing raids. All these men - and their equipment - were needed on the Eastern Front.



Of course, most of those troops were of inferior quality / equipment compared to the ones committed on the eastern front....nonetheless, they would have been more than welcome on the eastern front.

Strange how the obvious is less and less obvious once you start pondering about it




True. And you are right of course. I have a three volume set that tells about every single German division that fought in WW2. But as far as active fronts go it was the only major front during that time.

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Post #: 98
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/7/2012 5:45:07 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


Edit: can't spell



Nate will never let you live this down.

And Steiner, at my age I ALWAYS need a nap!
Warspite1

Yes, but in fairness I did make a one letter mistake with El-Alamein; nate25 regularly makes two letter mistakes with C-A-T

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Post #: 99
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/7/2012 5:45:07 PM   
rogo727


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And don't forget the white bread division....

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Post #: 100
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/7/2012 5:45:51 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

And don't forget the white bread division....
Warspite1

Que?

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Post #: 101
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/7/2012 6:59:43 PM   
SLAAKMAN


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quote:

Only in a marginal way. I am ready for the attacks this will bring, but here goes. The Soviet Union defeated Germany. Utterly and completely.

This is a common fallacy being propagated by historians with Marxist biases. Without US & British air supremacy, Axis oil production would have sustained a stalemate on the Russian front. Point being no belligerent could have beaten the Axis all alone & nobody did. The war was a team effort from beginning to end.


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Post #: 102
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/7/2012 7:47:50 PM   
nate25


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+1, Slaak. It's a real shame that's true.

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Post #: 103
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/7/2012 9:25:18 PM   
rogo727


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

And don't forget the white bread division....
Warspite1

Que?

W1
I'm at work I think it was the the 49th infantry division they where fed white bread because they had sensitive stomachs. I will report back when I get of work.

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Post #: 104
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/7/2012 9:37:04 PM   
sulla05

 

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You also have to add in not only how many trucks or jeeps that were delivered to Russia but also how many train engines etc..

Every piece of equipment that came form the Western powers would have had to be made by the Russians. Not having to do that left them free to concentrate on armaments.

The other production point that has not come up is that Germany was still on a peace time economy until Jan.-feb. 1943.

Look at Germany's production of armaments in 1944 and then imagine the same output for 42-43 or earlier.

Kursk could well have turned into a victory or stalemate if the divisions that were pulled from the Russian front were not sent to Italy.

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Post #: 105
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/7/2012 9:52:22 PM   
SLAAKMAN


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quote:

You also have to add in not only how many trucks or jeeps that were delivered to Russia but also how many train engines etc..


The soviets were supplied with 2000 locomotives as well;
quote:

As the war progressed, most of the Allied nations proved capable of manufacturing sufficient frontline weapons for their troops, however this led to a drastic reduction in the production other needed items. Materials from Lend-Lease filled this void in the form of munitions, food, transport aircraft, trucks, and rolling stock. The Red Army in particular took advantage of the program and by war's end approximately two-thirds of its trucks were American-built Dodges and Studebakers. Also, the Soviets received around 2,000 locomotivesfor supplying its forces at the front.

http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/industrialmobilization/p/lend-lease-act.htm

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Post #: 106
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/7/2012 11:40:16 PM   
parusski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


Edit: can't spell



Nate will never let you live this down.

And Steiner, at my age I ALWAYS need a nap!


I could not care less about the discussion. I MUST know what warspite1 mistyped. Does anyone have proof of a mistake he made??? There will be a great reward for such information.

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Post #: 107
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/7/2012 11:40:27 PM   
nate25


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All right, now this is ridiculous.

The posts here make too much sense.

There is no way the Huns could have done this well. No way.

Stop it. I'll give you guys another 1393 posts and that's IT.

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Post #: 108
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/7/2012 11:41:35 PM   
parusski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nate25

All right, now this is ridiculous.

The posts here make too much sense.

There is no way the Huns could have done this well. No way.

Stop it. I'll give you guys another 1393 posts and that's IT.


I would never, NEVER make shameless posts just to artificially increase my post count.

Shame, shame nate25.

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Post #: 109
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/7/2012 11:43:16 PM   
nate25


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Parusski, all I can say is, I learned from the best. YOU.

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Post #: 110
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/7/2012 11:50:41 PM   
parusski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nate25

Parusski, all I can say is, I learned from the best. YOU.


Thanks, I was counting on you.

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Post #: 111
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/7/2012 11:53:49 PM   
rogo727


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70th Infantry Division
Nicknamed the "white Bread Division" because most of its 7500 soldiers had stomach problems and required special diets, this static division was mustered in on Walcheren Island Holland, on July 17.1944. Cadres of the 165th Reserve Division were also transferred to the division, along with the division were also transferred to the divison, along with the divisional staff, 5th reserve Artillery Regiment. The grenadier battalionss of the 70th were former security battalions. In November 1944 it was attacked by the 1st Canadian Army. The ailing soldiers fought well as it took Montgomery's vetern forces nine days to defeat them.

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Post #: 112
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/8/2012 12:03:37 AM   
HanBarca


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

quote:

Only in a marginal way. I am ready for the attacks this will bring, but here goes. The Soviet Union defeated Germany. Utterly and completely.

This is a common fallacy being propagated by historians with Marxist biases. Without US & British air supremacy, Axis oil production would have sustained a stalemate on the Russian front. Point being no belligerent could have beaten the Axis all alone & nobody did. The war was a team effort from beginning to end.



Ohhhh come on! The Marxist historians know too well that the German army was already in deeeeep sh*t in December 1941. Not a single british bomb had been dropped on oil fields yet and USA was not even at war.

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Post #: 113
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/8/2012 12:17:00 AM   
rogo727


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HanBarca


quote:

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

quote:

Only in a marginal way. I am ready for the attacks this will bring, but here goes. The Soviet Union defeated Germany. Utterly and completely.

This is a common fallacy being propagated by historians with Marxist biases. Without US & British air supremacy, Axis oil production would have sustained a stalemate on the Russian front. Point being no belligerent could have beaten the Axis all alone & nobody did. The war was a team effort from beginning to end.



Ohhhh come on! The Marxist historians know too well that the German army was already in deeeeep sh*t in December 1941. Not a single british bomb had been dropped on oil fields yet and USA was not even at war.

I wouldn't say they where in deep dung in winter 41. The war in the east was anything but finished. Your going to have to do much better than that to be taken seriously my Italian friend. Now replace German with the word Italian and your statement is true.

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Post #: 114
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/8/2012 12:45:27 AM   
parusski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HanBarca


quote:

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

quote:

Only in a marginal way. I am ready for the attacks this will bring, but here goes. The Soviet Union defeated Germany. Utterly and completely.

This is a common fallacy being propagated by historians with Marxist biases. Without US & British air supremacy, Axis oil production would have sustained a stalemate on the Russian front. Point being no belligerent could have beaten the Axis all alone & nobody did. The war was a team effort from beginning to end.



Ohhhh come on! The Marxist historians know too well that the German army was already in deeeeep sh*t in December 1941. Not a single british bomb had been dropped on oil fields yet and USA was not even at war.


You stated it better than I did. The Germans were screwed by Hitler's diversion from a direct assault on Moscow, to the Kiev operations. The Russians were beginning to launch coordinated and determined attacks during these weeks. Between June 22, 1941 and December 31, 1941 Germany suffered about 200,000 dead/missing and 590,000 wounded!! IN 28 weeks the Germans suffered 790,000 casualties. That was before ANY real western aid reached Russia. Furthermore, this was a casualty rate of about 20%. It is not disrespectful to America or England to say Russia beat the Germans. The United States destroyed the Japanese and it would be a similar false argument to say, that without the Russian declaration of war on Japan, America could not have won that war. So why do Westerners feel the need to insist Russia could not go it alone? I have never understood this fear of admitting the West won the Pacific and Russia beat Germany.

And b4 anyone smashes me let me give the required statement: America is the greatest country in the world(for the moment). Hey, everyone in the world wants to come here, so it can't be too bad.



< Message edited by parusski -- 5/8/2012 12:46:18 AM >


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Post #: 115
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/8/2012 1:34:28 AM   
rogo727


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I see that you were just playing with me nd that's just fine. Your opinion is just that an opinion that almost defies all logic. And if logic dictates reason then the only conclusion can be without the west, Germany wouldn't have been defeated. Take US and the Uk out and you have a statement . Back and forth. You post I post. Let's find some common ground,
Exit stage............right

< Message edited by rogo727 -- 5/8/2012 1:36:36 AM >


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Post #: 116
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/8/2012 2:43:02 AM   
parusski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

I see that you were just playing with me nd that's just fine. Your opinion is just that an opinion that almost defies all logic. And if logic dictates reason then the only conclusion can be without the west, Germany wouldn't have been defeated. Take US and the Uk out and you have a statement . Back and forth. You post I post. Let's find some common ground,
Exit stage............right


Not fair to say I was playing with you. I did more reading and thinking on the topic today and saw no reason to alter my thoughts on this issue. My opinion and understanding of WW2 has changed dramatically, BUT SLOWLY, over a 10 year period.

I am not sure what I wrote defies logic, you might help me by clarifying.

Certain issues seem to get ignored during these discussions. First, the fact that Lend-Lease equipment did not arrive in large numbers until the second half of 42. By which point Germany was not going to win. Lend-lease may have hastened Germany's defeat, but that loss was going to happen.

As David Glantz says "Lend-Lease aid did not arrive in sufficient quantities to make a difference between defeat and victory in 1941-1942'', had Stalin and his commanders been left to their own devices, it "might have taken 12 to 18 months longer to finish off the Wehrmacht," but "the ultimate result would probably have been the same.

Ultimately I am not saying the West did not help, just that the assistance merely hastened the inevitable. Maybe I should posit that without the aid Russia might not have reached Berlin, fighting Germany to a standstill within the prewar borders. For Germany, this would have still been a defeat.

_____________________________

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Post #: 117
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/8/2012 3:07:13 AM   
rogo727


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Might have and probably would have are just educated guesses. The fact is we will never know. I don't see the soviets bombing Germany into submission. The fact is if Germany had no western front or africa I see them getting to Moscow and beyond. I also see the Japanese at some point attacking from the east. But without aid or a second front in Europe Massive bombing raids the soviets would be hard pressed to roll into belin.

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Post #: 118
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/8/2012 3:10:05 AM   
parusski


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quote:

But without aid or a second front in Europe Massive bombing raids the soviets would be hard pressed to roll into belin.


Yes, that is my point. The aid did make the difference in Russia rolling. I just contend Germany would have still lost or been fought to a standstill, maybe while in the Soviet Union. But no victory is a defeat for Germany.

Gotta go, later.

_____________________________

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Post #: 119
RE: Operation Barbarossa - 5/8/2012 3:19:55 AM   
rogo727


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Common ground. I concur.

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Post #: 120
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