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Toe settings - 4/30/2012 3:35:38 PM   
HITMAN202


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Is it best to lower toe settings of all German units except for infantry and motorized ??? I set all non-infantry/mech/Pz units to 50% at the start of the game and still see my average of my mech/Pz divisions (around 30) only at a 87% average and my infantry (around 95) a little less on turn 11. My manpower # is at 170,000 (also turn 11). Also my armament is at around 40,000. Am I doing right ??? Practically does it matter if your HQ units have a low toe ??? When do I need to decrease the toe setting on weak infantry divisions ????

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RE: Toe settings - 4/30/2012 3:49:12 PM   
Walloc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

Is it best to lower toe settings of all German units except for infantry and motorized ??? I set all non-infantry/mech/Pz units to 50% at the start of the game and still see my average of my mech/Pz divisions (around 30) only at a 87% average and my infantry (around 95) a little less on turn 11. My manpower # is at 170,000 (also turn 11). Also my armament is at around 40,000. Am I doing right ??? Practically does it matter if your HQ units have a low toe ??? When do I need to decrease the toe setting on weak infantry divisions ????


I dont think ur problem of the 87% toe pz/mot divs has much to do with other units settings in this case. Since information is lacking i ofc cant be 100% sure.
My theory is tho that ur pz/mot are far ahead of the rail lines and has very possibly been involved in combats aka taking casulties, plus any vehicle attrition by movement alone. Even if, in this case, u put ur pz/mot on refit and nada else, the distance alone to working rail lines takes the president. It simply limits how much replacements the units can get per turn. Refit or not. Also futher reduction in limiting replacements happens if the units is adjecent to enemy troops, which is prolly the case in some cases of ur pz/mot units.
There isnt much u can do about that, at that point in the game. Well, u could pull all of ur pz/mot back to ur RR lines and let them stand on refit there, but it isnt adviseble.

So while over all there are merits in limiting certain units by ToE and use of refit selectivly, i dont think the particular "problem" ur experiencing is affected by this, but is caused other game mechanics.


Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 4/30/2012 3:51:57 PM >

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RE: Toe settings - 4/30/2012 4:49:23 PM   
Denniss

 

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You should never go below 75% or withdrawing units get pumped up to near 100% prior to withdrawing. You armor units may lack tanks thus their TOE is below 90.

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RE: Toe settings - 4/30/2012 4:51:48 PM   
HITMAN202


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So do I need (ie. it's best) to start with low toe settings on all non-infan/Pz/mot units (and I forgot, Sec units) ???? The fact that my manpower is at 170,00 and armament 40,000 on turn 11, does this mean that I need to increase the toe on my SU's or other combat units ??? Also do units on Refit suffer more combat and attrition losses ????

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RE: Toe settings - 5/1/2012 4:21:22 PM   
Denniss

 

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I always keep my Security units at 100% for maximum suppression, for most others I use between 75 and 80%. I try to prevent combat usage of romanian divisions until 1942, when they change to a lower-manpower infantry squad. Finns also have lots of withdrawals so I'm reducing their TOE as well.

I actually don't know if refit affects attrition but, unless used on frontline units, I don't think it increases attrition.

_____________________________

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WitE 1.08 development/testing
WitW aircraft data

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RE: Toe settings - 5/1/2012 9:51:04 PM   
heliodorus04


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

So do I need (ie. it's best) to start with low toe settings on all non-infan/Pz/mot units (and I forgot, Sec units) ???? The fact that my manpower is at 170,00 and armament 40,000 on turn 11, does this mean that I need to increase the toe on my SU's or other combat units ??? Also do units on Refit suffer more combat and attrition losses ????


You're tinkering too much too soon with these settings, I believe.
I wait until late summer to start adjusting TOEs anywhere.
Someone said that you should not go below 75% TOE, and that's true. In fact, periodically double-check your withdrawal schedule, and set the TOE of units that are soon to withdraw (8 to 10 turns away) to 75%, then get them into combat until they fall in TOE to about 75% to 80%. Long-term, this strategy minimizes the negative consequence of having units withdraw with more force than rules require; you keep that force in the east (even if you kill it in battle, it's stuck in Russia!).

As a typical summer unfolds, you should adapt a more natural TOE setting based on how your goals are going. After Leningrad falls, it's okay to turn TOEs down in 16.&18.Army.

The key to unit success is unit morale, and all of your TOE decisions need to be subordinate to your unit morale. The key morale cutoff points are 71 and 86. At those morale points, a division will pay less cost in MPs to enter enemy terrain, meaning you can move further and still conduct a deliberate attack.

So as your summer unfolds, where you have successes achieved, then you start to do two things: a) move the high-morale units to new HQs (or to winter-safe quarters, depending on time of year). The cutoff of 86 for your 1941 campaign is critical, and if it's close to that, 81 or above perhaps, keep those strong too, because you may be able to protect them in winter, and raise their morale through fighting in 1942). b) Set the TOE for units that will remain in theater through the winter to 75.

Each turn as you inspect units during your first winter, I find it helpful to lower the TOE of any unit from 75 (your earlier 'low setting') to whatever its current TOE is. You don't want replacements going to units during the winter months - there's no point. Let them rest in the pool, and when March comes, you have ample time to start replacing losses. Note that for the axis minors, who suffer from even lower manpower levels, this step is something you should be doing all the time. Only high-morale minors should be allowed to stay high in TOE percentage.

Where your motorized/panzers are concerned, 90 is the minimum, and 100 is what you want for any unit that is above 80 in morale. I have found it very beneficial, as well, to be willing to pull panzer divisions or motorized divisions out of the line for refit. Place them on the last railhead hex, set them on refit attached to a good leader (army groups are fine), and let them draw new tanks for 1 or 2 full turns (my cutoff is 100 tanks).

/edit

Critical point: Do not lower TOEs on German HQs unless you are expecting that HQ to be entirely non-fighting. Germany benefits greatly from the support levels of its HQs. Until the defensive war starts to collapse (when you want to disband stuff to convert to rifle squads for defense), you shouldn't mess with HQ TOEs except during first winter (when you should set it to 50 - again, you don't want losses leaving Germany for Russia during the winter).

Airfields and airfield HQs can be tweaked as needed, throughout the war. See what the Support available/need is, and ensure you only have what's needed.

Does this help?

< Message edited by heliodorus04 -- 5/1/2012 9:53:39 PM >

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RE: Toe settings - 5/2/2012 12:44:54 AM   
AFV


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Each turn as you inspect units during your first winter, I find it helpful to lower the TOE of any unit from 75 (your earlier 'low setting') to whatever its current TOE is. You don't want replacements going to units during the winter months - there's no point. Let them rest in the pool, and when March comes, you have ample time to start replacing losses. Note that for the axis minors, who suffer from even lower manpower levels, this step is something you should be doing all the time. Only high-morale minors should be allowed to stay high in TOE percentage.



So if you don't want any replacements going to them, why not just set them all to 50? I guess I just don't understand this point- clearly I am missing something. Are you saying you don't want replacements going to them because you want the replacements to go to the units being sheltered for the winter?

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RE: Toe settings - 5/2/2012 3:02:32 AM   
Farfarer

 

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You don't want units hitting "Depleted" status if they are going to be in contact with the enemy. However, if you are retreating and not fighting, you do not want to send men forward just to get frostbite. 75 is a quick guess as to what you can use to avoid both the above, then tweak as required.

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RE: Toe settings - 5/2/2012 4:26:04 AM   
heliodorus04


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AFV


quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Each turn as you inspect units during your first winter, I find it helpful to lower the TOE of any unit from 75 (your earlier 'low setting') to whatever its current TOE is. You don't want replacements going to units during the winter months - there's no point. Let them rest in the pool, and when March comes, you have ample time to start replacing losses. Note that for the axis minors, who suffer from even lower manpower levels, this step is something you should be doing all the time. Only high-morale minors should be allowed to stay high in TOE percentage.



So if you don't want any replacements going to them, why not just set them all to 50? I guess I just don't understand this point- clearly I am missing something. Are you saying you don't want replacements going to them because you want the replacements to go to the units being sheltered for the winter?



You are correct that I'm suggesting a path that leads to more micro-management during winter. I guess in my style of checking units, particularly when units are in combat for successive turns, it's just a normal move on my part.

One of the reasons I choose the 75 threshold to start is that it's fairly resilient value. Once a unit gets below 65, you really need to think about taking it out of the line for rest, else you risk routes. Retreats are always preferred to routes. Above 75 has to be reserved for your "divisions with names"*.

* The wehrmacht had a saying that you were always better off in a unit with a name as opposed to '346 Infantry division"
They also had a great one at Stalingrad about prayer, "It is better to have a cousin in the Luftwaffe than a father in heaven."
But I digress

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RE: Toe settings - 5/4/2012 4:51:12 AM   
HITMAN202


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Why not set all HQ toes to 50% at start of the game ??? They bleed down to 80% or so by the 17th turn . Later in the game you need troops in the front line combat units. Do HQ toes in 50's and 60's really hurt ???

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RE: Toe settings - 5/4/2012 1:50:04 PM   
heliodorus04


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

Why not set all HQ toes to 50% at start of the game ??? They bleed down to 80% or so by the 17th turn . Later in the game you need troops in the front line combat units. Do HQ toes in 50's and 60's really hurt ???


HQs provide Support Squads from their own unit-counter to the combat units in their command. Support Squads are responsible for "repairing" damaged and disrupted elements in a combat-unit so that they can be factored in to the combat algorithms.

The more Support Squads your HQ has, the more help it is giving to its subordinate units, the better your combat power and the slower your unit erosion in converting damaged elements to destroyed elements.

So when you short an HQ, you're also shorting the combat resilience of every unit in its command.

When the game gets to the point that Germany needs to start focusing hard on Rifle Squads, the better choice is to disband unnecessary stuff, including HQs, so that support squads can stay high in the HQs still.

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RE: Toe settings - 5/4/2012 3:35:41 PM   
HITMAN202


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Thanks. Other than the Rumanian mountain divisions, is it best to place their brothers on 75 % toe (also minus the armor) ???

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Post #: 12
RE: Toe settings - 5/6/2012 3:19:17 PM   
heliodorus04


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Just as with German infantry divisions, you want to set your TOE points based on unit morale. True, the Mountain units are essential for the first winter. But after winter, their morale is likely to be so low that they are not worth rebuilding to full TOE (they will never again be as useful as the winter of 41/42, and become crap minors like all the rest).

The cutoff for the lower morale units are either 51 or 56, I can't recall (I think it's 56 - a very hard point to reach with minors). If I'm right about 56, then 41 would be the next cutoff. Since the minors have lower replacement levels than Germany, it's important to pay more attention to where your replacements are going. Just focus on morale after winter 41/42, and set TOEs accordingly.

In my personal play style, I set the cav units to 50 TOE, and I only use them for partisan duties. I use most Romanian infantry and brigades as garrisons for Light-Urban hexes. I do the same with Italian units, on garrison or partisan duty - they are worthless.

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RE: Toe settings - 5/8/2012 10:30:59 AM   
coolts


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If you start the '42 GC as Axis, on say "challenging" as i did, the army is such a shambles i had to switch everything apart from HQ's to 50% TOE just to get the manpower pool to start creeping up at 2k per week in order to allow me to assign meagre replacments where i wanted them.  And that was with 90% of the army in static.

I dream of a 75% cutoff! 

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RE: Toe settings - 5/8/2012 9:59:12 PM   
HITMAN202


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But back to my original question / statement about setting certain German units at 50 % Toe at the start of the campaign.....if you keep their Toe (non Sec, Inf, Pz, Mot units) high thru the summer/fall when the blizzard hits they will have that much more attrition since they start the bad weather at a higher Toe. When I've set HQ Toe at 50% at the start of the campaign, by blizzard they are usually around 70-75% or so. Now I realize that HQ Toe supports the attacks of it's subordinate units and a weaker HQ means less support, but this disadvantage seems to be small compared to the huge benefit of less blizzard attrition. I'm I correct on this ???

< Message edited by HITMAN202 -- 5/8/2012 11:28:42 PM >


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RE: Toe settings - 5/9/2012 9:52:33 AM   
coolts


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I would rather keep manpower in the pool during 1st winter than at the front freezing their arses off.  It all depends on what your opponent is doing though.  having divs at 50% is a 'luxury' you may not be able to afford if you are getting your lines pounded.  In quiet sectors you can get away with it.

_____________________________

"Gauls! We have nothing to fear; except perhaps that the sky may fall on our heads tomorrow. But as we all know, tomorrow never comes!!" - Chief Vitalstatistix

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RE: Toe settings - 5/9/2012 2:34:38 PM   
Denniss

 

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If you operate with 50% for all you have to check the withdrawal shedule every turn to set withdrawing units to 75% in time (withdrawal -6 turns), if not they may get pumped up to 100% in the worst case.

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RE: Toe settings - 5/9/2012 2:55:08 PM   
coolts


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So I hear.  Thats probably bitten me on the ass a few times!

Please lobby to fix that ASAP as another layer of micromanagement is really not needed ;)

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