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Curious about one thing... - 4/26/2012 8:30:17 PM   
Perturabo


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Are the Chinese workers that print Matrix Games manuals treated according to the same standards as western employees of Matrix Games? Specifically, are they paid at least a western minimal wage and work with western safety standards?

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Without social solidarity manifested in the form of welfare state, people inhabiting one territory are a non-nation of mortal enemies engaged in competition for survival.
Post #: 1
RE: Curious about one thing... - 4/26/2012 8:49:55 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4608
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From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Are the Chinese workers that print Matrix Games manuals treated according to the same standards as western employees of Matrix Games? Specifically, are they paid at least a western minimal wage and work with western safety standards?


I hope they are not paid any minimal wage, if they are then costs are to high and I would not be happy.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to Perturabo)
Post #: 2
RE: Curious about one thing... - 4/27/2012 4:24:50 PM   
TonyE


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From: MN, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
Specifically, are they paid at least a western minimal wage and work with western safety standards?


It sounds like you think they should be. I might argue that western safety standards are absurdly high and should not be a limiting factor. Similarly imho a minimum wage, if any, must be correlated to the local circumstances, not to this undefined western minimal wage (minimum wage if I understand it varies tremendously in the western world).

My stance is pretty extreme capitalistic but if I had to have some social assurances they'd go about like this...
1. The workers should not actively fear for their lives in the process of executing their jobs. This means I shouldn't have to put my head under the 20ton press to form the part but it doesn't mean that the press has to have four buttons to engage (one for each hand and one for each foot). This also means the employer creates an atmosphere where there a good chance I won't be murdered/tortured/raped/...

2. Minimum wage means the worker can provide for himself the basic necessities. I don't believe a 40 hour per week or less workweek is a human right but maybe I would agree to a maximum 70 hour per week average at a wage that provides the basic necessities. I don't think health care is a basic necessity nor retirement.

Yep, I'm pretty cruel by most people's measure, don't elect me dictator of the world.



_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to Perturabo)
Post #: 3
RE: Curious about one thing... - 4/27/2012 4:46:55 PM   
carnifex


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That's pretty funny. What you think that Matrix has workers in China? If there is any kind of Chinese connection it probably goes like this: They call some guy, send over a pdf, then the Peoples Manual Factory #14 goes to work and Matrix gets a container of manuals a month later.

Whoever prints those manuals is subject to Chinese laws and their pay and working condition conform to their practices. Of course they don't get paid the same as western workers - they live in a Communist country where the state covers a great many expenses - minimum wage here in the U.S. for example assumes that you are paying out of pocket for some health care costs which an ordinary Chinese worker would not have to pay. As for safety, that costs a lot of money and would add a lot of cost to products. Besides, each society determines the amount of acceptable risk in the workplace, so we really have no business telling them what to do unless things are extreme.

That's why Americans prefer Chinese made goods over anything; because they are cheap and the quality is acceptable.

(in reply to TonyE)
Post #: 4
RE: Curious about one thing... - 4/27/2012 6:12:03 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4608
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
Specifically, are they paid at least a western minimal wage and work with western safety standards?


It sounds like you think they should be. I might argue that western safety standards are absurdly high and should not be a limiting factor. Similarly imho a minimum wage, if any, must be correlated to the local circumstances, not to this undefined western minimal wage (minimum wage if I understand it varies tremendously in the western world).

My stance is pretty extreme capitalistic but if I had to have some social assurances they'd go about like this...
1. The workers should not actively fear for their lives in the process of executing their jobs. This means I shouldn't have to put my head under the 20ton press to form the part but it doesn't mean that the press has to have four buttons to engage (one for each hand and one for each foot). This also means the employer creates an atmosphere where there a good chance I won't be murdered/tortured/raped/...

2. Minimum wage means the worker can provide for himself the basic necessities. I don't believe a 40 hour per week or less workweek is a human right but maybe I would agree to a maximum 70 hour per week average at a wage that provides the basic necessities. I don't think health care is a basic necessity nor retirement.

Yep, I'm pretty cruel by most people's measure, don't elect me dictator of the world.




Over the years I have hardened my heart toward the sappy liberalism that demands U.S. companies pay a "living" wage in second or third world countries. I do not recall which nation, but in the 90's, in South America, some American company was forced to close down a factory after being crucified in the media for paying workers .65 an hour. Of course after the factory closed...no more jobs at even .65 an hour.


_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to TonyE)
Post #: 5
RE: Curious about one thing... - 4/27/2012 7:07:36 PM   
Hertston


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I love capitalists. They make us socialists look great without even having to get off our lazy butts and and actually do anything.

(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 6
RE: Curious about one thing... - 4/27/2012 7:16:44 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4608
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From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

I love capitalists. They make us socialists look great without even having to get off our lazy butts and and actually do anything.


Those fat "lazy" butts!

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to Hertston)
Post #: 7
RE: Curious about one thing... - 4/27/2012 7:32:36 PM   
danlongman

 

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What is your minimum wage/safety standard for yourself or your kids? And why should it be any different for others?
I do not mean the exact U$ amount but equivalent buying power. Should people work more for less because of their government? Is that okay?
Because they are after all just foreigners whose forebears weren't smart enough to move here sooner.
What would have become of some of us if the Native Americans had tougher immigration laws?
Doesn't apply to me because I am special.

(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 8
RE: Curious about one thing... - 4/27/2012 7:47:52 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

I love capitalists. They make us socialists look great without even having to get off our lazy butts and and actually do anything.


Those fat "lazy" butts!
Warspite1

What's the old saying? If you are a capitalist when you are young - you have no heart; if you are a socialist when you are old, you have no brain....

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 9
RE: Curious about one thing... - 4/27/2012 8:56:29 PM   
nate25


Posts: 1378
Joined: 9/20/2011
From: Fishers Indiana
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LOL.

I can't believe this got the responses it did.

OP's obviously trying to bait someone into a "The Evil West" argument.

Really? I mean, really?

This is the same type of person who would be crying a river if he couldn't order the latest piece of electronic gear (probably made in China) off of his favorite website.


_____________________________

I have a subtle and cunning plan.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 10
RE: Curious about one thing... - 4/27/2012 9:02:29 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4608
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: danlongman

What is your minimum wage/safety standard for yourself or your kids? And why should it be any different for others?
I do not mean the exact U$ amount but equivalent buying power. Should people work more for less because of their government? Is that okay?
Because they are after all just foreigners whose forebears weren't smart enough to move here sooner.
What would have become of some of us if the Native Americans had tougher immigration laws?
Doesn't apply to me because I am special.



Picture me slapping my forehead. Picture me banging my head against a brick wall(built at a cost of $34.44 an hour). I am injuring myself 'cause I know some folks would rather see people in other parts of the world NOT work, than benefit from any kind of work at low pay(even though the alternative is NO INCOME.

Move along folks, this will devolve into a "capitalism is evil and socialism is GREAT argument".

I am can't reason with...


< Message edited by parusski -- 4/27/2012 9:31:35 PM >


_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to danlongman)
Post #: 11
RE: Curious about one thing... - 4/27/2012 9:07:00 PM   
nate25


Posts: 1378
Joined: 9/20/2011
From: Fishers Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski

quote:

ORIGINAL: danlongman

What is your minimum wage/safety standard for yourself or your kids? And why should it be any different for others?
I do not mean the exact U$ amount but equivalent buying power. Should people work more for less because of their government? Is that okay?
Because they are after all just foreigners whose forebears weren't smart enough to move here sooner.
What would have become of some of us if the Native Americans had tougher immigration laws?
Doesn't apply to me because I am special.



Picture me slapping my forehead. Picture me banging my head against a brick wall(built at a cost of $34.44 an hour). I am injuring myself 'cause I know some folks would rather see people in other parts of the world NO work, than benefit from any kind of work at low pay(even though the alternative is NO INCOME.

Move along folks, this will devolve into a "capitalism is evil and socialism is GREAT argument".
I am can't reason with...



+1


_____________________________

I have a subtle and cunning plan.

(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 12
RE: Curious about one thing... - 4/27/2012 9:33:21 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 17201
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nate25


quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski

quote:

ORIGINAL: danlongman

What is your minimum wage/safety standard for yourself or your kids? And why should it be any different for others?
I do not mean the exact U$ amount but equivalent buying power. Should people work more for less because of their government? Is that okay?
Because they are after all just foreigners whose forebears weren't smart enough to move here sooner.
What would have become of some of us if the Native Americans had tougher immigration laws?
Doesn't apply to me because I am special.



Picture me slapping my forehead. Picture me banging my head against a brick wall(built at a cost of $34.44 an hour). I am injuring myself 'cause I know some folks would rather see people in other parts of the world NO work, than benefit from any kind of work at low pay(even though the alternative is NO INCOME.

Move along folks, this will devolve into a "capitalism is evil and socialism is GREAT argument".
I am can't reason with...



+1

Warspite1

Yes agreed - that's why I came up with the quote I did - it attacks both!!

As for a flame war on capitalism vs socialism; well, to hell with that, I've got a beauty pageant to run

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to nate25)
Post #: 13
RE: Curious about one thing... - 4/27/2012 9:38:53 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4608
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: online
quote:

Warspite1

Yes agreed - that's why I came up with the quote I did - it attacks both!!

As for a flame war on capitalism vs socialism; well, to hell with that, I've got a beauty pageant to run


AMEN!!

But, one parting shot; If it was NOT for CAPITALISM, socialists and other nutters would not have the freedom, money and technology to attack capitalism!!!

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 14
RE: Curious about one thing... - 4/27/2012 10:06:11 PM   
Gary Childress


Posts: 5501
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski


quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Are the Chinese workers that print Matrix Games manuals treated according to the same standards as western employees of Matrix Games? Specifically, are they paid at least a western minimal wage and work with western safety standards?


I hope they are not paid any minimal wage, if they are then costs are to high and I would not be happy.


Unfortunately the knife cuts a bit both ways. If a worker in China is being paid low wages to do something for an American company to keep costs down, it also means that there are American workers out there who aren't getting those jobs at a decent salary, which means that many fewer people who can afford to pay for computer games. More people with money over here would mean more computer games sold, lowering cost a bit as well, and your salary would probably go up because as a good worker in the work pool you would be worth more than you are now with so many people jobless. Shipping jobs to China lowers your salary too.

Secondly, we are shipping a lot of skills over to China which means their people are going to become more technologically sophisticated than our people who are becoming more dependent on "customer service" jobs where all you learn is how to say "have a good day, come back again".

EDIT: Sorry for indulging in this political debate. Couldn't resist I guess. Although it is a legitimate question for Perturabo to ask a company with whom he does business.

< Message edited by Gary Childress -- 4/27/2012 10:10:25 PM >


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My WitP webpage: https://sites.google.com/site/garyswitpsite/


(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 15
RE: Curious about one thing... - 4/27/2012 10:09:21 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41344
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
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quote:

ORIGINAL: nate25

LOL.

I can't believe this got the responses it did.

OP's obviously trying to bait someone into a "The Evil West" argument.

Really? I mean, really?

This is the same type of person who would be crying a river if he couldn't order the latest piece of electronic gear (probably made in China) off of his favorite website.



Well, duh... Of course, "Perturabo" has also opined that libraries are organized theft, so...

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to nate25)
Post #: 16
RE: Curious about one thing... - 4/27/2012 10:12:44 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4608
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus


quote:

ORIGINAL: nate25

LOL.

I can't believe this got the responses it did.

OP's obviously trying to bait someone into a "The Evil West" argument.

Really? I mean, really?

This is the same type of person who would be crying a river if he couldn't order the latest piece of electronic gear (probably made in China) off of his favorite website.



Well, duh... Of course, "Perturabo" has also opined that libraries are organized theft, so...

quote:

Well, duh... Of course, "Perturabo" has also opined that libraries are organized theft, so...


LOL, damn, I forgot about that. Theft indeed.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 17
RE: Curious about one thing... - 4/27/2012 10:24:36 PM   
Gary Childress


Posts: 5501
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: carnifex

If there is any kind of Chinese connection it probably goes like this: They call some guy, send over a pdf, then the Peoples Manual Factory #14 goes to work and Matrix gets a container of manuals a month later.

Whoever prints those manuals is subject to Chinese laws and their pay and working condition conform to their practices.


This probably sums it up about right.

< Message edited by Gary Childress -- 4/27/2012 10:25:05 PM >


_____________________________

My WitP webpage: https://sites.google.com/site/garyswitpsite/


(in reply to carnifex)
Post #: 18
RE: Curious about one thing... - 4/28/2012 8:39:44 AM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5320
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Are the Chinese workers that print Matrix Games manuals treated according to the same standards as western employees of Matrix Games? Specifically, are they paid at least a western minimal wage and work with western safety standards?

Maybe lets take a look at our own yard first.
Are all the workers in European Union treated the same? Is the same minimal wage in all EU countries?


(in reply to Perturabo)
Post #: 19
RE: Curious about one thing... - 4/28/2012 6:40:59 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2262
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader


quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Are the Chinese workers that print Matrix Games manuals treated according to the same standards as western employees of Matrix Games? Specifically, are they paid at least a western minimal wage and work with western safety standards?

Maybe lets take a look at our own yard first.
Are all the workers in European Union treated the same? Is the same minimal wage in all EU countries?

Well, that's what I'm thinking about almost all the time when wasting my precious time for 1,5 Euro a hour. It's quite a mental torture.

_____________________________

Without social solidarity manifested in the form of welfare state, people inhabiting one territory are a non-nation of mortal enemies engaged in competition for survival.

(in reply to doomtrader)
Post #: 20
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