Matrix Games Forums

Command gets huge update!Order of Battle: Pacific Featured on Weekly Streaming SessionA new fight for Battle Academy!Buzz Aldrin's Space Program Manager is out for Mac!The definitive wargame of the Western Front is out now! War in the West gets teaser trailer and Twitch Stream!New Preview AAR for War in the West!War in the West Manual previewThe fight for Armageddon begins! The Matrix Holiday sales are starting today!
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Assault Engineer Sapper Brigades -- Best Use?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> The War Room >> Assault Engineer Sapper Brigades -- Best Use? Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Assault Engineer Sapper Brigades -- Best Use? - 4/26/2012 5:47:05 PM   
jwduquette1

 

Posts: 110
Joined: 3/5/2011
Status: offline
I finally found an opponent with the chutzpah to continue playing WiTE beyond the first few turns of the blizzard. We have actually gotten to mid-1943. I just noticed in the BUILD NEW UNITS options for urban hexes the option to build Assault Engineer Sapper Brigades. Looks interesting -- and new for me since I havent got this far in the game before.

For the few people out there that have actually gotten far enough into the game to have this build option, what is your take on the usefulness of these engineer units. These are not SUs -- they are actual combat units like tank brigades or infantry brigades and such. I assume they provide Engineer Support when attacking fort hexes, and presumably kick up entrenchment\construction rates for units stacked with them. But in the attack, stacking one engineer brigade in a hex means one less infantry corps in the attacking stack\stacks. And I can attach Sapper Regiment SUs directly to Infantry Corps which both increase entrenchment\construction rating of the infantry corps as well as increase the Engineer Support value when the corps attacks an entenched hex without dealing with the three unit stacking disadvanatge associated with Sapper Brigades.

Is it worth building these units? Or should I stick to building sapper regiment SUs?

< Message edited by jwduquette1 -- 4/26/2012 5:50:36 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Assault Engineer Sapper Brigades -- Best Use? - 4/26/2012 6:58:53 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 5588
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline
Don't build them. Don't build any Brigade-Sized units for that matter (unless it's to later combine into Corps).

You are better off just building hordes of Sapper Regts and attaching them to everything.

(in reply to jwduquette1)
Post #: 2
RE: Assault Engineer Sapper Brigades -- Best Use? - 4/27/2012 2:23:13 PM   
cavalry

 

Posts: 1882
Joined: 9/2/2003
From: Blackboys East Sussex UK
Status: offline
The only reason not to build Brigades is the stacking rules it seems. Because they are units on the map and the sapper regts have no stack value.

Brigade size units should offer some benefits and just stating do not build for stacking reasons alone indicates to me something is wrong with this aspect of the game.

The fact is the soviets had tons of Brigades...These assault Engineer Brigades it seems were quite important certainly in my HPS PZC MiNSK 44 they are very useful.

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 3
RE: Assault Engineer Sapper Brigades -- Best Use? - 4/27/2012 2:24:46 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 5588
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

The only reason not to build Brigades is the stacking rules it seems. Because they are units on the map and the sapper regts have no stack value.

Brigade size units should offer some benefits and just stating do not build for stacking reasons alone indicates to me something is wrong with this aspect of the game.

The fact is the soviets had tons of Brigades...These assault Engineer Brigades it seems were quite important certainly in my HPS PZC MiNSK 44 they are very useful.


That is the reason, stacking limitations. If stacking was by # of guys and not units, they would be good builds, along with many Brigade sized units

But the Soviet army is all about mass, so they don't fit with that when there are stacking limits

(in reply to cavalry)
Post #: 4
RE: Assault Engineer Sapper Brigades -- Best Use? - 4/27/2012 2:37:49 PM   
cavalry

 

Posts: 1882
Joined: 9/2/2003
From: Blackboys East Sussex UK
Status: offline
I accept that in the game

But the Soviets had these units, lots probably and in dense areas of the front llike in front of 78 Sturm in Minsk / Bagration, the assualt units were specially trained, had flame tanks and flail tanks- They were needed when fort levels are high. They would be fools to do that in this game so somehow the stacking rules are distorting historical fact. When that happens I lose a bit of interest - I still like this game its got all the qualities for a classic Eastern Front but somehow it is still a bit of an odd shape trying to fit into a round hole.

Maybe Brigades need some re think , for both sides.

How about assault Engineers, regts and Brigades, KG etc should count as 1/2 a stacking point? Would you build them then?

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 5
RE: Assault Engineer Sapper Brigades -- Best Use? - 4/27/2012 5:01:33 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 21924
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: online
Don't forget that brigades can be put in reserve mode in the attack and kept a hex back from the attacking units. Brigades have a better chance of being added to a combat than divisions. Of course this may not be as good as building support units (the brigades do take up command points), but just wanted to point out that there is a way to deal with the stacking issue.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to cavalry)
Post #: 6
RE: Assault Engineer Sapper Brigades -- Best Use? - 4/27/2012 9:20:21 PM   
jwduquette1

 

Posts: 110
Joined: 3/5/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

I accept that in the game

But the Soviets had these units, lots probably and in dense areas of the front llike in front of 78 Sturm in Minsk / Bagration, the assualt units were specially trained, had flame tanks and flail tanks- They were needed when fort levels are high. They would be fools to do that in this game so somehow the stacking rules are distorting historical fact. When that happens I lose a bit of interest - I still like this game its got all the qualities for a classic Eastern Front but somehow it is still a bit of an odd shape trying to fit into a round hole.

Maybe Brigades need some re think , for both sides.

How about assault Engineers, regts and Brigades, KG etc should count as 1/2 a stacking point? Would you build them then?


Good points.

Perhaps brigades should have the ability to be directly attachable to a Corps – like instead of being able to attach three SUs to a Corps you can attach a single tank brigade or engineer brigade sized combat unit to a Corps. The Brigade sized combat unit is than listed under support units for the Corps. It reappears in an adjacent hex if the Corps breaks down to Division sized units. This capability would short circuit the lack of practicality to these units because of the 3 unit stacking limit rules and would probably go a long way toward Russian side players actually building all those brigades that the historical Red Army contained.

Same again for German Divisions and German Brigade and Regiment sized independent combat units. For example allow the Grossdeutchland Regiment to be attached directly to the 1st Panzer Division.

I'll probably build one or two Sapper Brigades just to experiment with. I’ll fiddle with them as direct assault units – suffering the stacking issue. And try placing in reserve like Joel suggests. But unless through game experimentation I begin to see some clear advantage to building these Sapper Brigades, I doubt I'll build more than the one or two experimental models.

(in reply to cavalry)
Post #: 7
RE: Assault Engineer Sapper Brigades -- Best Use? - 4/27/2012 9:25:37 PM   
jwduquette1

 

Posts: 110
Joined: 3/5/2011
Status: offline
I'd also add that a similar issue will arise in WiTW, albeit not to the degree of the Red Army of WWII and plethora of brigade sized units in the actual Red Army. The various UK armies, British\Canadian, had various independent brigade sized units that will be somewhat less useful because of the 3 unit stacking limits. In addition -- aside from a number of independent infantry RCTs -- the United States Army was fond of breaking armored divisions into combat commands and parceling out combat commands to infantry divisions. Allowing brigade and regimental sized units to function as a support unit attachments to divisional sized combat formations might be a work around.

< Message edited by jwduquette1 -- 4/27/2012 9:30:01 PM >

(in reply to jwduquette1)
Post #: 8
RE: Assault Engineer Sapper Brigades -- Best Use? - 4/27/2012 9:55:50 PM   
jaw

 

Posts: 978
Joined: 7/24/2009
Status: offline
We're already a step ahead of you. For WitW we have added the capability to define combat units smaller than divisions (i.e. brigades & regiments) as "Multi Role" units. Multi Role units can change back and forth between combat units (on map) and support units (off map) attachable to divisions. This capability probably won't be in WitE until the 2.0 version.

(in reply to jwduquette1)
Post #: 9
RE: Assault Engineer Sapper Brigades -- Best Use? - 5/7/2012 7:11:56 PM   
cavalry

 

Posts: 1882
Joined: 9/2/2003
From: Blackboys East Sussex UK
Status: offline
Sounds good...

(in reply to jaw)
Post #: 10
RE: Assault Engineer Sapper Brigades -- Best Use? - 5/10/2012 4:09:54 AM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 1023
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwduquette1
Perhaps brigades should have the ability to be directly attachable to a Corps – like instead of being able to attach three SUs to a Corps you can attach a single tank brigade or engineer brigade sized combat unit to a Corps. The Brigade sized combat unit is than listed under support units for the Corps. It reappears in an adjacent hex if the Corps breaks down to Division sized units.
Same again for German Divisions and German Brigade and Regiment sized independent combat units. For example allow the Grossdeutchland Regiment to be attached directly to the 1st Panzer Division.

This is the way to go I think, except that I'd allow the brigade to be detached from it's parent unit at any time, not just when it's broken down into it's constituent divisions..
I'd also like the option to attach SUs directly to divisions to allow a certain amount of customization.

(in reply to jwduquette1)
Post #: 11
RE: Assault Engineer Sapper Brigades -- Best Use? - 5/19/2012 2:29:21 PM   
delatbabel


Posts: 1248
Joined: 7/30/2006
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
I have just noticed that brigade sized assault engineer units now appear as support units I can build in a Soviet HQ.

Is this new (in 1.06.06 or so)? This is around mid November in a 1941 GC. I don't recall seeing them before.

The RR construction brigades and the sapper regiments are still there, but there is also this new engineer brigade.

_____________________________

--
Del

(in reply to timmyab)
Post #: 12
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> The War Room >> Assault Engineer Sapper Brigades -- Best Use? Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.078