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Fed up with the prolific lite games

 
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Fed up with the prolific lite games - 4/24/2012 11:17:55 AM   
wodin


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I'm getting really fed up with the amount of "lite" games being made so they can be mobile\tablet friendly. It seems nearly everygame is bordering on casual these days especially the indie strategy titles.

Mobiles and Tablets for me are having a negative effect on games and it's disappointing.

Soon you will be hard pressed to find new deep strategy games coming from indie developers.

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RE: Fed up with the prolific lite games - 4/24/2012 11:25:50 AM   
Terminus


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No different that the movement from DOS to Windows, in my opinion.

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RE: Fed up with the prolific lite games - 4/24/2012 11:35:30 AM   
James Crowley

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I'm getting really fed up with the amount of "lite" games being made so they can be mobile\tablet friendly. It seems nearly everygame is bordering on casual these days especially the indie strategy titles.

Mobiles and Tablets for me are having a negative effect on games and it's disappointing.

Soon you will be hard pressed to find new deep strategy games coming from indie developers.



Totally agree.

I guess it is ultimately all about money. From the Devs pov it is better to sell ten or twenty thousand cheap 'apps' than a thousand 'deep and detailed' niche games.

Other than BFC - who have also brought out a lite version of CM on the I-pad - and the modders on Combat Command -Ostfront, no one else is producing detailed/realistic wargames, especially at the tactical level. Sad.

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RE: Fed up with the prolific lite games - 4/24/2012 1:21:01 PM   
wodin


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Terminus your kidding right?

DOS to Windows meant we were going to get even better games.

PC's to mobiles is taking back gaming by about ten years.

Huge step backwards in tech, and mobiel\tablet games developers will always go for the casual\lite end of the market as thats where the money is at.

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RE: Fed up with the prolific lite games - 4/24/2012 1:24:58 PM   
Terminus


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No, I'm not kidding. Time marches on, and developers have to go where the money is. DOS got old and died, Windows danced on its grave, and now IOS and Android are waiting for their turn. Same deal.

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RE: Fed up with the prolific lite games - 4/24/2012 1:40:22 PM   
Kronolog

 

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If the funds from those games allows Matrix to keep developing and producing a few hardcore-titles, then I'm all for it.

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RE: Fed up with the prolific lite games - 4/24/2012 1:50:54 PM   
vonRocko

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I'm getting really fed up with the amount of "lite" games being made so they can be mobile\tablet friendly. It seems nearly everygame is bordering on casual these days especially the indie strategy titles.

Mobiles and Tablets for me are having a negative effect on games and it's disappointing.

Soon you will be hard pressed to find new deep strategy games coming from indie developers.

Right on Wodin. They're becoming "lite" games.

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RE: Fed up with the prolific lite games - 4/24/2012 1:54:11 PM   
vonRocko

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

No different that the movement from DOS to Windows, in my opinion.

Not even close. Windows expanded possibilities, ipads, and their like, restrict and decrease the possibilities.

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RE: Fed up with the prolific lite games - 4/24/2012 7:58:54 PM   
ilovestrategy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

No, I'm not kidding. Time marches on, and developers have to go where the money is. DOS got old and died, Windows danced on its grave, and now IOS and Android are waiting for their turn. Same deal.



I have to agree with this right here. Times change and the game developers are smart enough to see where the wind is blowing. Not just our strategy games, the big money MMOs are going in that direction now. For example, compare the playerbase of Everquest to Star Wars the Old Republic. A brand new game as hardcore as EQ would never make it in this day and age.

Same with strategy games.

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RE: Fed up with the prolific lite games - 4/24/2012 8:45:03 PM   
Perturabo


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So, the Decline is finally coming to the wargaming scene too? I always thought wargames will be one of the few genres that will be spared from it.

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RE: Fed up with the prolific lite games - 4/24/2012 10:53:05 PM   
wodin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

No, I'm not kidding. Time marches on, and developers have to go where the money is. DOS got old and died, Windows danced on its grave, and now IOS and Android are waiting for their turn. Same deal.



I have to agree with this right here. Times change and the game developers are smart enough to see where the wind is blowing. Not just our strategy games, the big money MMOs are going in that direction now. For example, compare the playerbase of Everquest to Star Wars the Old Republic. A brand new game as hardcore as EQ would never make it in this day and age.

Same with strategy games.



I'm not saying it isn't time moving on, but it's a big step backwards in resources to make great games. I wonder what will happen to hardware companies? Once they stop making graphic cards for PC's as it isn't cost effective and concentrate and making hardware for mobiles and tablets thats the end of PC gaming right there. You see there are so many models of tablets and mobiles that the money say ATI can make by getting agreements with various tablets and mobiles will be far more than PC hardware. You also can't compare it to PC vs Consoles. Consoles stagnate for three years before new hardware is needed plus there are only two or three makers that say ATI could bid for. Now tablets and mobiles is a different kettle of fish, constantly wanting new tech and loads of manufacturers.

The sad thing is they tech in these devices and processing power\graphic power is years behind a decent PC. This means we get load sof lite and casual games. Maybe in 7 years they will be able todo what a decent PC can do today. However lets remember. A graphics card for a PC is twice as big as a mobile!

You still cant compare it to DOS and windows, we where moving up in the tech stakes. Here we go backwards. More like Beta Max and VHS syndrome.

< Message edited by wodin -- 4/24/2012 10:54:36 PM >


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RE: Fed up with the prolific lite games - 4/24/2012 10:55:24 PM   
GordianKnot


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This might be true for tactical games but there are still plenty of operational / strategic games in the works that have a lot of depth. The most obvious one being the WITE series which looks to eventually cover all of Europe.

HPS is still around too although it doesn't look like their code base has progressed much since the early years. Seems like new scenarios on an old interface.

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RE: Fed up with the prolific lite games - 4/24/2012 11:12:34 PM   
ilovestrategy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GordianKnot

This might be true for tactical games but there are still plenty of operational / strategic games in the works that have a lot of depth. The most obvious one being the WITE series which looks to eventually cover all of Europe.

HPS is still around too although it doesn't look like their code base has progressed much since the early years. Seems like new scenarios on an old interface.



This is my number one gripe with war games. The interface. It seems like they use the same format from the 90s, which is a major click fest.

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RE: Fed up with the prolific lite games - 4/24/2012 11:56:33 PM   
wodin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GordianKnot

This might be true for tactical games but there are still plenty of operational / strategic games in the works that have a lot of depth. The most obvious one being the WITE series which looks to eventually cover all of Europe.

HPS is still around too although it doesn't look like their code base has progressed much since the early years. Seems like new scenarios on an old interface.



yeah but for how long? Granted HPS games could be played on a tablet. I just can't afford one. A PC is my limit in tech. Idon't even have a flat screen TV as I haven't the money.

I see developers making games for mobiles and tablets and a fair few are wargames. If tablets and mobiles weren't around they'd be making games for the PC and most likely not as "lite" either.

As for click fest.. I use that term for RTS games where you have to click as quickly as possible loads of times. Not for turn based or wego where you can take your time so clicking isn't a stressful experience.

< Message edited by wodin -- 4/24/2012 11:57:50 PM >


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RE: Fed up with the prolific lite games - 4/25/2012 1:32:20 AM   
ilovestrategy


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When I say click fest I dont mean speed. I mean going through unnecessary hoops and extra windows. Storm over the Pacific for example. When I have a fleet of forty carriers I have to reset the fleet order after every carrier strike so I can find the carrier that is striking next. Same with repairing ships too.

It's not just that game, it's wargaming in general. Lots of unnecessary clicking that use no streamlining at all. I've read the same complaints in the WiTE and WiTPAE forums. It gets tedious.

What I'm trying to say is that you don't need a 15 year old style of interface to have a deep strategy game.

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RE: Fed up with the prolific lite games - 4/25/2012 2:17:37 AM   
wodin


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I see where your coming from, however I don't have to much of a problem with that, however being able to move units at a higher command and in formation is something that many massive wargames need (similar to Command Ops). That would mean programming in a friendly AI. Trying to make an AI anyway for the enemy is hard enough in these big games as it is. Thats why I think we don't see it. Even Command Ops struggles with this and it's usually where many moans come into play. Friendly AI not behaving the way they should.

I think the AI is the major stumbling block for monster wargames. I'm not a PBEM player either.

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Post #: 16
RE: Fed up with the prolific lite games - 4/25/2012 5:44:54 PM   
rogo727


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

No different that the movement from DOS to Windows, in my opinion.

Not even close. Windows expanded possibilities, ipads, and their like, restrict and decrease the possibilities.

I don't think they restrict or decrease the possibilities...in fact i use my ipad more than my laptop I find. I am playing right now a matrix game that I also own on my laptop. It is not a "lite" game at all. In time more and more games will be made for the Ipad......Q3 Panzer Korps....I bet that game will go on to top the charts.

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RE: Fed up with the prolific lite games - 4/25/2012 6:29:12 PM   
GordianKnot


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I'm working on a strategy game myself. In it I'm trying to address some of the 'clickfest' issues. You can give a unit multiple orders that will play out over a series of turns. For example, let's say as Germany, you've just invaded Poland. Normally, the next 5-6 turns consist of little more than moving each unit as far as possible west toward's the French front. With my game, you can simply click on the final destination, and then at the beginning of each turn, any unit with unused movement will follow its already determined path until it reaches its destination.

Another example would be a unit created in the US could be given the command to rail to the coast, transport by sea to the UK, rail to another port, transfer to amphibious transport and land on the coast of France all at once. Then it would play out over the next 8-10 turns with no more interaction needed.

Similarly, air and sea units will be mission based. Once you give a task force or air wing a mission, it will execute it each turn until told otherwise or until some fatigue or loss threshold is reached forcing it to stand down till it recovers.

Hopefully this will minimize a lot of the tedium of these large strategy games.

Also, this game targets Windows not iPads or other tablets. Although its possible with the library I'm using that it could be ported to Linux.

http://gswie.blogspot.com/

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RE: Fed up with the prolific lite games - 4/25/2012 6:51:08 PM   
pvthudson01


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Thats the issue. LITE wargames like Panzer General of course work fine. But when you need horsepower, computing power and an AI opponent that actually thinks well a tablet and things like that will NEVER cut the mustard. Which means we get more and more games that are stripped down, dumbed down and made for casual wargamers.

If I wanted that I would buy any EA RTS game

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RE: Fed up with the prolific lite games - 4/25/2012 6:52:41 PM   
nate25


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This sounds really good. Hypothetically, could it be applied to agame as detailed as WitPAE?

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RE: Fed up with the prolific lite games - 4/25/2012 9:22:54 PM   
Rick

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GordianKnot

I'm working on a strategy game myself. In it I'm trying to address some of the 'clickfest' issues. You can give a unit multiple orders that will play out over a series of turns. For example, let's say as Germany, you've just invaded Poland. Normally, the next 5-6 turns consist of little more than moving each unit as far as possible west toward's the French front. With my game, you can simply click on the final destination, and then at the beginning of each turn, any unit with unused movement will follow its already determined path until it reaches its destination.

Another example would be a unit created in the US could be given the command to rail to the coast, transport by sea to the UK, rail to another port, transfer to amphibious transport and land on the coast of France all at once. Then it would play out over the next 8-10 turns with no more interaction needed.

Similarly, air and sea units will be mission based. Once you give a task force or air wing a mission, it will execute it each turn until told otherwise or until some fatigue or loss threshold is reached forcing it to stand down till it recovers.

Hopefully this will minimize a lot of the tedium of these large strategy games.

Also, this game targets Windows not iPads or other tablets. Although its possible with the library I'm using that it could be ported to Linux.

http://gswie.blogspot.com/


Gordian,

I visited your site. Looks interesting Gordian. Good luck!

rick

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RE: Fed up with the prolific lite games - 4/25/2012 9:32:20 PM   
berto


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Don't the loss of a mouse pointer and the use of "fat fingers" to interact with the computer (screen) imply a loss of fine-precision interface control?

And who wants to play map-based games on a small screen (implying lots of scrolling/swiping)? (I play my games with dual, side-by-side wide-screen monitors -- the game in one screen; the help files, game play aids, and Internet browser in the other.)

I don't own a tablet computer, so I don't know what I'm talking about.

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RE: Fed up with the prolific lite games - 4/25/2012 9:57:16 PM   
wodin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pvthudson01

Thats the issue. LITE wargames like Panzer General of course work fine. But when you need horsepower, computing power and an AI opponent that actually thinks well a tablet and things like that will NEVER cut the mustard. Which means we get more and more games that are stripped down, dumbed down and made for casual wargamers.

If I wanted that I would buy any EA RTS game



Well said.

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RE: Fed up with the prolific lite games - 4/26/2012 7:30:43 PM   
Jeffrey H.


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From: San Diego, Ca.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GordianKnot

I'm working on a strategy game myself. In it I'm trying to address some of the 'clickfest' issues. You can give a unit multiple orders that will play out over a series of turns. For example, let's say as Germany, you've just invaded Poland. Normally, the next 5-6 turns consist of little more than moving each unit as far as possible west toward's the French front. With my game, you can simply click on the final destination, and then at the beginning of each turn, any unit with unused movement will follow its already determined path until it reaches its destination.

Another example would be a unit created in the US could be given the command to rail to the coast, transport by sea to the UK, rail to another port, transfer to amphibious transport and land on the coast of France all at once. Then it would play out over the next 8-10 turns with no more interaction needed.

Similarly, air and sea units will be mission based. Once you give a task force or air wing a mission, it will execute it each turn until told otherwise or until some fatigue or loss threshold is reached forcing it to stand down till it recovers.

Hopefully this will minimize a lot of the tedium of these large strategy games.

Also, this game targets Windows not iPads or other tablets. Although its possible with the library I'm using that it could be ported to Linux.

http://gswie.blogspot.com/


Wow, neat looking game, great concept !




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Post #: 24
RE: Fed up with the prolific lite games - 4/26/2012 7:31:28 PM   
Jeffrey H.


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Ooopsie, double post.




< Message edited by Jeffrey H. -- 4/26/2012 7:32:37 PM >


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Post #: 25
RE: Fed up with the prolific lite games - 4/26/2012 7:34:09 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.


Ooopsie, double post.



Warpite1

Sorry, Jeffrey H, but did you really just say "ooopsie"?

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RE: Fed up with the prolific lite games - 4/26/2012 11:49:59 PM   
Rtwfreak

 

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yeah just when we are getting to 25" + monitors and high resolution they go back in time to 6" screens or less where you need a magnifying glass to play them.

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Post #: 27
RE: Fed up with the prolific lite games - 4/27/2012 12:32:05 AM   
Mobeer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rtwfreak
yeah just when we are getting to 25" + monitors and high resolution they go back in time to 6" screens or less where you need a magnifying glass to play them.

Recent study that 1366x768 is the most popular resolution for PCs:
http://www.neowin.net/news/study-1366x768-now-the-most-popular-screen-resolution

Maybe tablets aren't so low res after all?

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Post #: 28
RE: Fed up with the prolific lite games - 4/27/2012 3:56:29 AM   
Jeffrey H.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.


Ooopsie, double post.



Warpite1

Sorry, Jeffrey H, but did you really just say "ooopsie"?


Ya, I was feeling a little bit like "Richard"....



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Post #: 29
RE: Fed up with the prolific lite games - 4/27/2012 5:45:48 AM   
Gary Childress


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Are tablets really offsetting PCs? They seem like two different worlds to me. There were probably some who thought laptops would takeover and PCs would become obsolete then. But that hasn't transpired. There will always be a need for higher performance computer power and unless there is some kind of massive technological breakthrough, tablets aren't going to deliver that. I sort of think of as tablets as merely the latest fad. Really it seems to me that they won't completely take over. There are just too many limitations to them. I can type on a standard keyboard a lot faster than I can work my fat fingers on a tablet. I would hate to work in a office where all we had were tablets. I'd probably quit. Same thing with consoles. Consoles and PCs exist pretty much side by side when it comes to gaming. I would think tablets will merely be an augmentation to the PC, at least for the near future until they figure out ways around their limitations. I don't think anyone in their right mind would shelve PCs quite yet.

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