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RE: Where are my Mules?

 
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RE: Where are my Mules? - 4/25/2012 4:58:50 AM   
RCH


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Your right. I have no idea what they intend to do.

< Message edited by RCH -- 4/25/2012 6:04:28 AM >

(in reply to hfarrish)
Post #: 61
RE: Where are my Mules? - 4/25/2012 5:16:52 AM   
traemyn

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCH

There are some good ideas in the thread. My money says that they fix muling and that is it.

The devs listened to the Axis side when they made the VP change, but that has not been the norm. The devs don't listen to Axis concerns.


Please go back through all patch notes and then tell me how they don't listen to Axis concerns (2:1 nerf, multiple blizzard nerfs, hiwis, off the top of my head, Soviet manpower nerfs). That statement is a bit rediculous.

The are some big ticket items for the Axis that have repeatedly been denied (TOE control, production control, a better system for withdrawls) and will stay that way until a new game or maybe never (i.e. production). These aren't just simple/fast things to whip up and code into game unfortunately and nothing is going to change that fact.

< Message edited by traemyn -- 4/25/2012 5:18:26 AM >

(in reply to hfarrish)
Post #: 62
RE: Where are my Mules? - 4/25/2012 11:03:56 AM   
Walloc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

I mean if rail cap for a city lost currently equals 100 lost then increase this to 150 or 200 lost. Even if only temporary for 1941. From my experience the Soviet rail cap is overstated.

I wonder if the people who did WitP AE would do the same job with WITE?




Eh, u ferget the times 5 multiplier for soviet side. So each lost rail is 500 lost rail cap for soviet side. One of the things i have noticed and metioned in various threads is how by avoiding cities trying to avoiding surfaces and attacking gaps is a good idea. But many german players could combat with little efford the soviet RR system/capacity by taking some of those high RR cities instead of just bypassing them to a much larger degree than what is done now.

Knowing ur enemy is to defeat ur enemy,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 4/25/2012 12:00:17 PM >

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 63
RE: Where are my Mules? - 4/25/2012 11:38:25 AM   
Walloc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

Walloc,

I'm somewhat confused. The goal is to balance the game. History may not relevent. Where does steam rolling come from? Having too many units on the board. Where are those units coming from? Production and being railed to the front. I don't see how it can be anything else? Realize that this is in spite of Lvov, Lgrad, etc., scary to think what would be happening right now without them.

Please understand that nothing I'm stating is a binary and needs to be tinkered with within the context of the game to create a more balanced game overall. If you want to focus on OOB, fine, reduce manpower or don't allow manpower to escape. Will that stop what's happening in 41? No. It will still be fairly easy to checkerboard or carpet a defense and prevent anything even resembling a historical German 41, unless the Soviets make a major mistake, because rail allows both movement of troops and factories pretty easily.

There's consensus, for the most part, that something needs to be done. Offer up suggestions.



quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

Well, it's been pretty clearly stated that no major changes like a logistical overhaul are going to happen. They have to be smaller changes.

Do nothing to the game right now and it will die eventually, IMO. Germans players are finding the same thing happening now, game after game. It's frustrating and dull, unless of course you mule, which is what this thread is about.

Sooo....other ideas?


Hi Victor,

Well i do have idea's, but as u say nothing major is gona change, so i find it pointless to present them.
If i had some 5 min fix that would make every one happy(not that that would ever happen) and perfectly balance the game i would ofc say some thing. Problem is that some one more clever than me would prolly alrdy have identified it and implimented it in game.

One thing u dont seem to realize is that while the 42 russian army might be to big it has alrdy been stated by devs that when looking at ´43 ´44 armies they on soviet side are alrdy consistantly smaller than historic. Steamrolling can still happen. Why to many counters on the board doesnt hold water as a theory IMO.

While many have talked and rightly so about the failture of the logistic system im a bit amazed at how little ppl have looked at other possible sources, at leased it doesnt seemed talked about on these forums.

From logging every combat result in pbems i've played and doing sandbox testing i find another matter might very well be just as much at the heart of the problem. Not to discount the lack of reducion in ops tempo from the supply system.
The combat system inparticular how the modifying CV part of it is inlarge a part of the reason behind steamrolling. It simply bias the attacking side way to much. Be it one or the other side. While i believe can back up my theory and alrdy have semi written a long post about it detailing my findings but i find it pointless. Even if im right the code change/ massive testing of such wont happen.

U suggest i come with suggestions. I will. I read ur AARs in the AAR section last night. While there are limits to what u can deduce from still shoots here and there. I still would say u have room for improvement in how u tacticly and operationally use ur counters and im not talking Michael T / Pelton ways.
I cant find any AARs of u playing soviet side. U might have played some any how, but my suggestion would be try and play the soivet side. Learn their limitations and their capabilties. The more u know the enemy the better u can play the opposite side. Also i would try and play some of the better axis players. Again not talking Michael T or Pelton but there are others out there doing well, without muling and so on.

The are simply put, 2 ways to learning. Learning from own mistakes and then learning from others. I bet that if u played some of these better axis players u would see what u can be able to do and find ways to incorporate that into ur own play as axis side.
Seeing ur AARs u seem "stock" in certain ways and seemingly its hard to go outside those bounderies. Np, thats how the far majority of ppl function. Being shown by others what and how else u can do stuff is a great way of learning. Possibly add playing ur self in head to head the first 2 turns. U could do more inparticular with ur AGN/AGC moves and since its limited what u can do in ur turn 1 as soviets playing ur self is a great way of learning what can and cant be done.


Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 4/25/2012 11:44:15 AM >

(in reply to vicberg)
Post #: 64
RE: Where are my Mules? - 4/25/2012 4:13:42 PM   
vicberg

 

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There's always room for improvement. Concentrating forces at the point of attack is something I'm not doing enough of, but I've played against opponents who use reserves heavily and have no problem putting the entire front, north to south, into reserve mode. You need troops next to those front line units or there are reserves everywhere. However, even Michaelt has commented that he mules for a reason and without mules, it's extremely difficult for the Germans to make enough progress, so I'm not convinced it's entirely tactics on my part. Plus there's too many other players, many of them quite experienced, saying the same thing.

Here's what I see as the challenge for the Germans:

On turns 4-11, before the Soviets have enough troops to carpet and fortify accross the map, the Germans need to be able to create salients that force the Soviets to stretch their lines. These salients provide encirclement opportunities, breakouts that can capture production or force Soviet pull backs accross the theater of operations. The Soviets (and I've played as Soviets and did the same thing) start creating checkboards every two to three hexes starting around turn 3-4, 2 to 3 layers deep in the north. Based on where the panzers are in a theater, you can go with 2 deep checkboards every 2-3 hexes at the extremities and 3 deep every 2 hexes at the main axis of attack. Soviet brigades can be used in later turns to fill the gaps of the checkerboard. Checkerboards continue until there's enough troops to start forming carpets. In the south, I see Soviets run back to the Denpr and pull back and form brigade/small division checkerboards using the logistical dead zone to prevent much in the way of advance as the rail heads are way back until turns 10-11. This is assuming the use of air transport to refuel heavily in AGC and AGS.

Here's where the combat mechanics make this defense difficult to beat. 1) You can only hasty attack from a single hex. Hasty vs. deliberate is simply a reflection of the time to take a hex, with hasty being a fast rate of attack, with higher losses potentially, and deliberate being a slower rate, maximizing casualties and minimizing losses. There's no reason why you can't hasty from 2 or more hexes, but because you can't, a hasty attack from a single hex against a double or triple stacked Soviet hex in good terrain is a crapshoot at best because the CV swings around wildly, even using one or two corp as offensive reserves. 2) So the safe way to attack is to use deliberates, but because FOW is pretty extreme, it's quite easy to get 80-1 odds on a deliberate, which should become an overrun costing 2 MPs vs the 6 or 16 MP cost. But because there is no overrun, it becomes a slow rate of advance, even with concentrated infantry, and the Soviets continue to get stronger and then start forming their carpets. 3) Once the Soviet brigades start arriving they can fill gaps, which take up ZOC costs for German movement, attrition, MPs to attack and hasty is dangerous because you never quite know what's in a hex even moving next to it.

So the combo of no overrun, hasty attack limitations and brigade level ZOC creates issues that prevent a good rate of advance and then the checkerboard becomes a fortified carpet, the same combat issues above still exist, the entire carpet is pretty much in reserve mode and the offensive comes to halt. The games stops being competitive.

This is why some Germans mule. Having 45 MPs in your panzer groups enable multiple deliberates that can clear out 2-3 layer deep checkerboards and open opportunities. The MPs overcome the combat limitations.

Any German players believe I'm off base here, please let me know.

(in reply to Walloc)
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RE: Where are my Mules? - 4/25/2012 4:21:41 PM   
Scook_99

 

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I haven't been a fan of muling, but I am rapidly changing my mind, especially since my regular opponent has paradropped deep on my rail lines (just think of what that does). I am not sure what a German must do to make it even into 1942 now against an evenly matched opponent. I am emotionally charged about this right now, so not thinking logically, so I will leave it at this: 18 months and I did get my money's worth out of it, but I have to strongly consider buying future titles, and this is someone that goes back as far as 1984 buying games from SSI. I am really not caring how good WitW will be, I will probably chooses to ignore it at this point in time.

To be fair, I do like playing both sides, and haven't lost as Russian, even though I think I am a neophyte playing them. Playing Russia = fun, playing German = something like work.

(in reply to Walloc)
Post #: 66
RE: Where are my Mules? - 4/25/2012 4:30:21 PM   
hfarrish


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Scook_99

I haven't been a fan of muling, but I am rapidly changing my mind, especially since my regular opponent has paradropped deep on my rail lines (just think of what that does). I am not sure what a German must do to make it even into 1942 now against an evenly matched opponent. I am emotionally charged about this right now, so not thinking logically, so I will leave it at this: 18 months and I did get my money's worth out of it, but I have to strongly consider buying future titles, and this is someone that goes back as far as 1984 buying games from SSI. I am really not caring how good WitW will be, I will probably chooses to ignore it at this point in time.

To be fair, I do like playing both sides, and haven't lost as Russian, even though I think I am a neophyte playing them. Playing Russia = fun, playing German = something like work.


No paradrops (or no greater paradrops than 10 hexes, or whatever) should be a house rule all around. I play Sov and I would never use them...

(in reply to Scook_99)
Post #: 67
RE: Where are my Mules? - 4/25/2012 4:34:33 PM   
heliodorus04


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If you're playing opponents that you can trust and/or respect, you might try setting Germany to 105 logistics. It makes a huge difference in the advance that Germany can make, especially with the average movement of the infantry.

I've used it versus the AI (and giving the Soviet even more bonuses than I'm getting via the Challenging AI settings), and I haven't used HQ buildup since Turn 4 anywhere (I'm on turn 45).

Give the German player that little love (particularly with Admin Points like I do), and it's a much better game. I'd be willing to play either side with such settings given Germany.

(in reply to Scook_99)
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RE: Where are my Mules? - 4/25/2012 4:51:58 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish

No paradrops (or no greater paradrops than 10 hexes, or whatever) should be a house rule all around. I play Sov and I would never use them...


Para drop range is getting looked at, along with muling and some other items. No promises as to what will get changed or when, but just wanted you to know we are not ignoring these things.


_____________________________

We don't stop playing games because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing games - Anon.

WitE Alpha/Beta Tester

(in reply to hfarrish)
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RE: Where are my Mules? - 4/25/2012 5:59:46 PM   
marty_01

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3


quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish

No paradrops (or no greater paradrops than 10 hexes, or whatever) should be a house rule all around. I play Sov and I would never use them...


Para drop range is getting looked at, along with muling and some other items. No promises as to what will get changed or when, but just wanted you to know we are not ignoring these things.



That's good to hear.

(in reply to elmo3)
Post #: 70
RE: Where are my Mules? - 4/25/2012 7:22:06 PM   
Joel Billings


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quote:

ORIGINAL: traemyn


quote:

ORIGINAL: jazman


Game is WAD (Working as Designed), coded according to requirements. Logistic system is not buggy, it is WAD.




I work in Support so I understand both sides of this statement. However when we have a really upset customer its better (and more honest) to say "it may be bad design, but its still working as designed". Which points to the heart of discussing these "issues" is that the devs have stated there are no major feature changes so the best someone can do is provide their ideas on how to make the next version better and hope the devs take it to heart.

There are problems with the logistics, withdrawls, ZOC's, rail capacity, air war, etc etc, but DAMN this game is still great imo. I am excited about WiTW and whatever comes next because it can only get better (rail capacity is being addressed for example, air war maybe too?).


We in the dev group have never said that the game was perfect and could not be improved. The issue is can it be improved in a cost efficient way that does not make things worse instead of better. This is a very complicated game, with many moving parts, and as you can see in the forum there are many opinions on all sides. There are clearly some German players that are frustrated with the game in PBEM mode (I don't think so much versus the AI, where most people play quietly and I believe happily). On the other hand, there are German players that are doing very well. We do not have a new dev team to come in and work on WitE AE right now like what happened with WitP AE (if you've got a team willing to work for 4 years with little or no pay, let me know, and I'll put them to work ASAP). We have said we will periodically make a few relatively safe adjustments where we can when we can identify them. The major overhaul of the game must wait for WitE 2.0, which must wait until after WitW. The good news is that WitW is addressing many of the often mentioned concerns of the grognard WitE players: Logistics system/Rail system, air war, combat results and hopefully victory conditions among them (and there are many others). We don't think this means WitE doesn't work well as a game for the overwhelming majority of users. We think it does. I'm sorry that some of you are not happy with the game, but as much as we would like, it is impossible to please everyone.

There is an active discussion in the tester forum ongoing about possible changes. I expect there will be a few targeted changes made in the next public beta (no exact ETA, but probably within the next 4-8 weeks). We do appreciate all of the discussion as it does give us some ideas for major changes in WitW while helping with more minor changes with WitE. Constructive criticism and suggestions are always welcome. There are some players that are hammering their points over and over, and some that are very aggressively defending the game. Some of this has become personal and I encourage posters not to go there. Attacks on the developers, testers and each other really don't help anything as they don't lead to improvements in the game nor do they lead to encouraging an active community, so everyone loses. Game options would be a great way to deal with different player opinions about the game, however this game was not set up to deal with game options well. Call it a poor design decision, but that's where we're at, so without that mythical WitE AE team it's not going to happen. This means we have to try to make a few changes that we think do the most good with the least risk, and the rest will have to come from player mods or house rules. We hope to set up WitW so it will be easier to provide game options, but it's not an easy thing to change so I can't guarantee this will happen. But I can say that many of you will be happy with the changes coming in WitW because they are fundamental changes in underlying systems and game mechanics.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to traemyn)
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RE: Where are my Mules? - 4/25/2012 8:20:17 PM   
AFV


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I appreciate your post Joel. I think what frustrates many here is listening to a certain group that basically says "no!" to any suggestion that might possibly be construed to help the Axis, claiming anything from "its hard coded and can never be changed" or "its not a bug, stfu" (when no one ever even claims its a bug), to what amounts to "you're stupid, shutup".

For the record, I think the devs have been very fair. I understand the contraints you're under- mainly monetary (as with any business). You listened to alternate victory conditions and end date of the game, and made a change (even though it was impossible according to many posters). You changed HQ displacements (and many were totally against that, for reasons that escape me). And you have made many other, positive changes.

I think a lot of the current issues/concerns can be solved with the editor. Unfortunately, thats going to take someone a lot smarter than me with a lot more time. But it still would not be an "official" version- *although* if someone does come up with another alternate version, perhaps the devs could look it over, get feedback, the community test it, and if deemed acceptable, incorporate it into a patch in the future? And yes, I know the same "No" group would throw hissy fits over such an idea, they may be vocal, but are hardly the majority. And just to say to them pre-emptively- this is not a new concept, never been done before, I have seen this done in multiple other titles over the years.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
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RE: Where are my Mules? - 4/25/2012 9:25:41 PM   
heliodorus04


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Joel, one of the things that infuriates me about the comment that changes will have to wait until War in the West (or even further thereafter) is that your company made a decision to charge $80 US for this game (along with $10 for a manual that was hopelessly out-dated the instant you sent it to the printer, but not everyone paid for that like me).

No other computer game did that in the time period since you have released War in the East (excepting collector's/deluxe editions).

That your company can argue that you've given me (speaking only for myself, I guess) the requisite level of support for the price point is an affront to the very high level of confidence I gave your product (and which, to me, it failed, and continues to fail to deliver). Because of these issues, I will no longer support future products, and I am going to keep up the drumbeat, however sporadically, that War in the East is a bad value in its category (and also a game replete with 'poor design decisions'). It should also be noted that a vast amount of data that drives War in the East was already on hand from other products, such as the Steel Panthers series apparently providing much of the weapon/element data.

Give me a $20 refund (and another $10 for the manual I bought) and I'll be more accommodating. Else, you will have to put up with me abiding by your forum rules and calling you out on the myriad hypocritical, a-historical, or just plain 'poor design decisions' in your product.



(in reply to AFV)
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RE: Where are my Mules? - 4/25/2012 9:47:54 PM   
comsolut

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Joel, one of the things that infuriates me about the comment that changes will have to wait until War in the West (or even further thereafter) is that your company made a decision to charge $80 US for this game (along with $10 for a manual that was hopelessly out-dated the instant you sent it to the printer, but not everyone paid for that like me).

No other computer game did that in the time period since you have released War in the East (excepting collector's/deluxe editions).

That your company can argue that you've given me (speaking only for myself, I guess) the requisite level of support for the price point is an affront to the very high level of confidence I gave your product (and which, to me, it failed, and continues to fail to deliver). Because of these issues, I will no longer support future products, and I am going to keep up the drumbeat, however sporadically, that War in the East is a bad value in its category (and also a game replete with 'poor design decisions'). It should also be noted that a vast amount of data that drives War in the East was already on hand from other products, such as the Steel Panthers series apparently providing much of the weapon/element data.

Give me a $20 refund (and another $10 for the manual I bought) and I'll be more accommodating. Else, you will have to put up with me abiding by your forum rules and calling you out on the myriad hypocritical, a-historical, or just plain 'poor design decisions' in your product.





Wow. Sequels have been around since, well before Star Wars. What are we up to with Diablo, 3 or 4? I for one am happy with this "flawed game." Just like I was happy Uncommon Valor resulted in WITP and WITP resulted in AE. And I am happy that the lessons from this game (call it even an investment in R&D toward WITW) will help WITW and maybe WITE2. I think the support has been fantastic from the developers. I don't need a refund and you will have to put up with me abiding by your forum rules and commending you on a job well done.

PS: I thought the price was fair and if I divided it by all the hours I have played this game the cost has been something like 8 cents per hour. Pretty cheap for entertainment.

PSS: And I will support your right to make constructive criticism as long as you want.

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 74
RE: Where are my Mules? - 4/25/2012 10:02:17 PM   
Tarhunnas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Joel, one of the things that infuriates me about the comment that changes will have to wait until War in the West (or even further thereafter) is that your company made a decision to charge $80 US for this game (along with $10 for a manual that was hopelessly out-dated the instant you sent it to the printer, but not everyone paid for that like me).



You have said that multiple times now! For myself, I must say that even if I don't think the game is perfect, the money I spent on this game is the best money I have spent in a long time. Few other computer games have given me as much enjoyment. I think the people behind this game are well deserving of any money the make out of it. And I know that you certainly don't get rich as a wargame developer!

_____________________________

Read my AAR:s ye mighty, and despair!
41Ger
41Sov
41Ger
42Ger
42Sov

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 75
RE: Where are my Mules? - 4/25/2012 10:41:39 PM   
Michael T


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Thanks for the update Joel. I appreciate the effort you go to to improve WITE. I personally have gotten more value from WITE than any other PC game I have owned (but CM BfN is closing the gap). I really appreciate what you did to get the 'alt GC' in to the game.

What does irk me is that fundamental things like the primitive zoc rule and a lack of a genuine overrun rule have been overlooked. These two things alone would have circumvented many of the problems that 'ants' have created. Like carpet and checker board defences. Ants have been a problem in many cardboard EF board games over the years and zoc rules and overrun rules over came those problems. As you must be aware of they have been around for eons in the cardboard world. My question is why have such fundamental mechanisms like these not been in the game from its very inception? I don't want to be critical of your testers, I am sure they did the best they could, but really it seems there must have been a lack of boardgaming pedigree/experience in the team to allow such a glaring omission. Any EF cardboard grognard could tell you that a game with ants is going to strike problems without overruns and variable zocs. Please enlighten me as to how this one slipped through the net.

I am in an enforced break from the game right now due to family commitments but I have pretty well being playing WITE non stop since its release. I have enjoyed it immensely as HQBU and muling allowed me to overcome the issues of run aways/carpets and checker boards. I look forward to the next major patch but I hope that you deliver something that will make runaways/carpets and checker boards far less appealing than what they are now. I say this as a player who plays both sides.

I look forward to WITW and WITE2 whenever that happens. Hopefully after WITW you will consider doing WITE2 rather than WITW 1940 or WINA. I think its very important for this series that you get a WITE version out that is roundly accepted as the 'holy grail' of EF gaming. The current WITE is not at that point yet.


_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 76
RE: Where are my Mules? - 4/25/2012 11:34:40 PM   
Joel Billings


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Helio, sorry you feel short changed, but we stand by the game and the price and stack it up against other games. It costs a lot and I can understand being disappointed if it doesn't meet your expectations. However, I would bet that most feel they have gotten their money's worth. If you do not want a monster game to change after you buy it, I suggest you not buy these kinds of games until 1-3 years after they are released. There is simply no other way to both react to the feedback that comes in after release and to see that some games get published in our lifetime.

Michael T, we have a game where amazing movements should be possible under the right conditions, and we have weekly turns. It becomes quite difficult to balance this in such a way that you get the ability to suddenly encircle large forces, while also making it possible to stop this from happening too easily. We could have started with a system that made ZOCs more complicated (i.e. you have to have a certain force to project a zoc), but we didn't, and going back now would force other changes in the game system. It's easy to identify an item that doesn't feel right, because this is a game and in the end and strategies are developed that are game mechanisms that allow the game to be played. It's a lot harder to remove something that doesn't feel right and make sure it's replaced with something that feels better, doesn't just lead to other strategies that feel just as bad, or doesn't compromise other aspects of the game. This is always difficult with a game that provides all the detail of WitE but in the end is after all just a hex based IGOUGO game. The IGOUGO and move/combat phase aspects of WitE provide a lot of the fun factor of the game, but come at a price.

I wonder how many people are playing the alternate VC scenario. Maybe I should start a poll.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 77
RE: Where are my Mules? - 4/26/2012 12:10:15 AM   
jazman

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings


But I can say that many of you will be happy with the changes coming in WitW because they are fundamental changes in underlying systems and game mechanics.


Backport? Please?

_____________________________

BS, MS, PhD, WitP:AE, WitE

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Post #: 78
RE: Where are my Mules? - 4/26/2012 12:26:17 AM   
Michael T


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From: Queensland, Australia.
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I appreciate it is not easy Joel. But surely removing zoc's from regs/brigs and having the regs/brigs evaporate/rout when hit at very high odds would be a good thing. Of course there would be some quid pro quo.

At this stage I have a feeling I may well have to become a Soviet only player for a while. But I will wait and see what you guys come up with.

As for the 'alt GC'. It’s the only one I play now and I have seen people posting for opponents for it. But generally there has been a decline in opps wanted recently.

Before setting up a poll on the 'alt GC' you had better organise a poll on whether we should have the poll in the first place


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Post #: 79
RE: Where are my Mules? - 4/26/2012 1:03:39 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas


quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Joel, one of the things that infuriates me about the comment that changes will have to wait until War in the West (or even further thereafter) is that your company made a decision to charge $80 US for this game (along with $10 for a manual that was hopelessly out-dated the instant you sent it to the printer, but not everyone paid for that like me).



You have said that multiple times now!


Colonel Klink: "There has never been a sucessful escape from Stalag 13!!!"

General Burkhalter: "So you have told me....... And told me.............. And told me."

One would think this is Sword of the Stars II as that was on release.....

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 4/26/2012 1:05:21 AM >

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 80
RE: Where are my Mules? - 4/26/2012 1:47:41 AM   
vicberg

 

Posts: 682
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Joel,

I started getting very vocal about this a week ago and it's snowballed from there. Certainly not going to take credit for something I believe has been going on for a long time, but I was encouraged to see many German players posting similar experiences. I understand there are choices and unintended consequences in any software design. I should know. I've done it for 20+ years. So I appreciate you posting and look forward to the results.

Speaking of, I offered a few years ago to help, pro-bono, with the development. I was going to contact your developer and we never connected and then my 2 year old was diagnosed with cancer, and that was that. She's going to be off treatment in a couple of months and I would like to renew my offer. I'll non-disclosures, etc..

Let me know if you're interested.

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 81
RE: Where are my Mules? - 4/26/2012 1:52:27 AM   
entwood

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

Joel,

I started getting very vocal about this a week ago and it's snowballed from there. Certainly not going to take credit for something I believe has been going on for a long time, but I was encouraged to see many German players posting similar experiences. I understand there are choices and unintended consequences in any software design. I should know. I've done it for 20+ years. So I appreciate you posting and look forward to the results.

Speaking of, I offered a few years ago to help, pro-bono, with the development. I was going to contact your developer and we never connected and then my 2 year old was diagnosed with cancer, and that was that. She's going to be off treatment in a couple of months and I would like to renew my offer. I'll non-disclosures, etc..

Let me know if you're interested.



sincere and heartfelt best wishes for your child.

(in reply to vicberg)
Post #: 82
RE: Where are my Mules? - 4/26/2012 2:02:07 AM   
Farfarer

 

Posts: 669
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Compare going to a movie, 90 minutes for 10 bucks. How many hours have you played WITE? The Defence Rests.

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Post #: 83
RE: Where are my Mules? - 4/26/2012 2:28:50 AM   
entwood

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Michael T, we have a game where amazing movements should be possible under the right conditions, and we have weekly turns. It becomes quite difficult to balance this in such a way that you get the ability to suddenly encircle large forces, while also making it possible to stop this from happening too easily. We could have started with a system that made ZOCs more complicated (i.e. you have to have a certain force to project a zoc), but we didn't, and going back now would force other changes in the game system. It's easy to identify an item that doesn't feel right, because this is a game and in the end and strategies are developed that are game mechanisms that allow the game to be played. It's a lot harder to remove something that doesn't feel right and make sure it's replaced with something that feels better, doesn't just lead to other strategies that feel just as bad, or doesn't compromise other aspects of the game. This is always difficult with a game that provides all the detail of WitE but in the end is after all just a hex based IGOUGO game. The IGOUGO and move/combat phase aspects of WitE provide a lot of the fun factor of the game, but come at a price.




re: overruns and variable zocs

why not just add a die-roll to it. 1-3 zoc, 4-6 no zoc or what-have-you. I have been and remain an advocate of adding a die roll to crush some hard-code, and that might not be too hard to program? and easy enough to adjust a die roll while balancing, or use 2 'dice' 2-12. Adding some die-rolls to
eliminate too-much-comfort would go a long way into adding some variance and risk to gambits.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 84
RE: Where are my Mules? - 4/26/2012 2:32:48 AM   
vicberg

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: entwood

sincere and heartfelt best wishes for your child.


Thank you

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Post #: 85
RE: Where are my Mules? - 4/26/2012 3:35:03 AM   
hfarrish


Posts: 727
Joined: 1/3/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas


quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Joel, one of the things that infuriates me about the comment that changes will have to wait until War in the West (or even further thereafter) is that your company made a decision to charge $80 US for this game (along with $10 for a manual that was hopelessly out-dated the instant you sent it to the printer, but not everyone paid for that like me).



You have said that multiple times now! For myself, I must say that even if I don't think the game is perfect, the money I spent on this game is the best money I have spent in a long time. Few other computer games have given me as much enjoyment. I think the people behind this game are well deserving of any money the make out of it. And I know that you certainly don't get rich as a wargame developer!


+1...and incidentally I recently started two games on the latest patch, my first since the fort nerfs (and second kid) back in 2011 and I have to say it is a far greater challenge as the Soviet player now than it was then, even with a no-muling house rule. Doesn't mean things are perfect and maybe it doesn't feel that way to the German, but I sure notice it!

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 86
RE: Where are my Mules? - 4/26/2012 9:36:07 AM   
Tarhunnas


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Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I wonder how many people are playing the alternate VC scenario. Maybe I should start a poll.


I just started a GC as the Soviets with the alternate VC scenario against Big Anorak. I don't have the time to write a full AAR this time, but I intend to publish occasional status reports, mostly to give you devs something to go on when considering adjustments.


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Read my AAR:s ye mighty, and despair!
41Ger
41Sov
41Ger
42Ger
42Sov

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Post #: 87
RE: Where are my Mules? - 4/26/2012 5:38:58 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 21347
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: online
Very sorry to hear about your child and I hope things go well. When you are at a point where you have time to help out, send me an email. We had one volunteer programmer for WitE that said he might be available to help on WitW. We told him our number one task for him if he had time was to redesign the way the menu screens are set up so that we could more easily add game options. He hasn't been available so this task is still out there. If we're able to do this, then some changes become possible. In theory, this could be done for either game, and then ported to the other (although the code is no longer directly linked so there would be some additional work involved).

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Post #: 88
RE: Where are my Mules? - 4/26/2012 7:51:10 PM   
vicberg

 

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Will do

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Post #: 89
RE: Where are my Mules? - 4/29/2012 5:46:42 PM   
colberki

 

Posts: 153
Joined: 6/16/2007
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Have we considered a simple new rule to balance the 1941-45 campaign as such to moderate the Soviet dash to the Steppes during Barbarossa?

"Each Soviet unit on the Eastern Front in the area from the June 22 border and west of Riga, Minsk, Kiev and Odessa must pay ten AP one time cost to move eastwards by land before December 1, 1941 No unit in the area may rail eastwards." This rule reflects STAVA determination to stand and fight at the start of the war, and the command cost of a local leader disobeying STAVA at (personal) cost.

Interested to hear what forum members and Matrixgames think of this proposed new rule?

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 90
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