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Gound combat or how does 2 become 173?

 
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Gound combat or how does 2 become 173? - 4/15/2012 12:43:18 AM   
HansBolter


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Can some one please help me understand how 2 becomes 173?

I realize Nanking is heavy urban wich is quadrupled defense terrain.

Last time I checked 2 quadrupled equaled 8.

Since I have no idea how forts actually increase comabt value or effect combat odds I guess I have to chalk it up to the effect of a level 4 fort.

However, I have attacked level 4 forts before that didn't multiply the combat value of the defender in quites so exponential a manner.

I attacked two HQ units that had a TOKEN assault value of ONE each with 157 combat squads, 22 MG squads, 27 engineer squads, 24 81mm mortars and 6 75mm field guns.

The HQs have absolutely no combat squads whatsoever and not only is thier token combat value somehow magically multiplied but my 27 engineer squads completey fail to reduce the fort level!!!

The Japanese routinely succeed in reducing fort levels even when attacking at 1-47 odds.

What gives? Borked or what?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Nanking (91,52)

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 7606 troops, 38 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 181

Defending force 5640 troops, 0 guns, 120 vehicles, Assault Value = 2

Allied adjusted assault: 148

Japanese adjusted defense: 173

Allied assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 4)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), preparation(-), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+), leaders(-)

Japanese ground losses:
6 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Allied ground losses:
8 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Assaulting units:
28th Chinese Corps

Defending units:
China Expeditionary Army
RGC Army


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Hans

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RE: Gound combat or how does 2 become 173? - 4/15/2012 1:00:37 AM   
treespider


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p.196 of the manual

Defending Support type squads are counted as 1/10th...plus I imagine Disabled Squads also have a defensive AV.

So I suspect the initial AV in the Combat report (AV=2) is the offensive potential...whereas the final AV = 173 is the adjusted Defensive AV....which would include devices with no offensive AV.


Plus - what type of Engineers did you have...only combat engineers reduce forts.


< Message edited by treespider -- 4/15/2012 1:01:38 AM >


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RE: Gound combat or how does 2 become 173? - 4/15/2012 7:20:16 PM   
BigBadWolf


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I have long ago given up any hope of understanding how land combat works in this game. I just pile all units I can get my hands on in one spot and hope for the best :(

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RE: Gound combat or how does 2 become 173? - 4/15/2012 8:18:11 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

p.196 of the manual

Defending Support type squads are counted as 1/10th...plus I imagine Disabled Squads also have a defensive AV.

So I suspect the initial AV in the Combat report (AV=2) is the offensive potential...whereas the final AV = 173 is the adjusted Defensive AV....which would include devices with no offensive AV.


Plus - what type of Engineers did you have...only combat engineers reduce forts.




Just the standard engineers organic to a Chinese corps. They probably aren't combat engineers.

I'm starting to agree with BigBadWolf though as the devs have stated many time before in response to my complaints that the combat odds really don't count for anything and just seem to be window dressing.

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RE: Gound combat or how does 2 become 173? - 4/16/2012 4:44:12 AM   
PaxMondo


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Yeah, based upon the numbers you present, it is as treespider says.  Also, there is clearly a random roll involved (this is Gary).  I would say your opponent got a very good roll, but he also has almost the same number of troops you have.  you will need at least 17,000 troops to take that place based upon the 5600 showing there, or at least that is what I would calculate.

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RE: Gound combat or how does 2 become 173? - 4/16/2012 6:16:10 AM   
Puhis

 

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If we look at the casualties, there was hardly any. Defenders got 2:1 odds, but because those support squads have very low anti-soft value (is it 7 or 9?), they couldn't inflict any damage.

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RE: Gound combat or how does 2 become 173? - 4/16/2012 6:22:03 AM   
Alfred

 

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Level 4 fortifications give a 1.75x multiplier in addition to the heavy urban terrain which is a 4x multiplier.

The initial unadjusted AV of 2 is the generic AV which even an undefended base has.

Alfred

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RE: Gound combat or how does 2 become 173? - 4/16/2012 12:40:53 PM   
BigBadWolf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

you will need at least 17,000 troops to take that place based upon the 5600 showing there, or at least that is what I would calculate.


Any troops or just combat?


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RE: Gound combat or how does 2 become 173? - 4/16/2012 1:26:54 PM   
PaxMondo


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Combat.  All the troops count in defense, but only combat troops on offense.  And you have to overcome the bonuses.  So a full division for sure with inherent combat engineers, maybe an extra brigade.  The defense is brittle, once it starts to crumble it will fall very fast and few casualties to the attacker.  Or attack with current forces and wait for a good roll.

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RE: Gound combat or how does 2 become 173? - 4/16/2012 1:28:04 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Level 4 fortifications give a 1.75x multiplier in addition to the heavy urban terrain which is a 4x multiplier.

The initial unadjusted AV of 2 is the generic AV which even an undefended base has.

Alfred

Alfred,

Do the modifiers here add or multiply? Is the final multiplier 5.75x or 7x?

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RE: Gound combat or how does 2 become 173? - 4/16/2012 1:34:21 PM   
BigBadWolf


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Thanks. Also, how exactly does lack of supply affect defender?

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RE: Gound combat or how does 2 become 173? - 4/16/2012 3:00:55 PM   
Empire101


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigBadWolf

I have long ago given up any hope of understanding how land combat works in this game. I just pile all units I can get my hands on in one spot and hope for the best :(


I work along a similar line to BBW. Just get what you can there, and what your logistical chain will support.

I try and get to 3:1 in my head, but most of the time its pure guesswork.

Prep'ing units before combat seems to help enormously...

I try to have a minimum of 25-30 prep points for each assaulting unit, not always possible, but hey, war is a dirty business!!

quote:

Original:BigBadWolf
Thanks. Also, how exactly does lack of supply affect defender?


Well it states in the manual in 15.3.1

Defensive and offensive fire of land units will low on supply will be reduced.
Once a unit has less than the total supply it needs there is a chance of having its combat fire reduced.
Once totally out of supplies its fire will be greatly reduced.


< Message edited by Empire101 -- 4/16/2012 3:09:18 PM >


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RE: Gound combat or how does 2 become 173? - 4/16/2012 3:35:36 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Level 4 fortifications give a 1.75x multiplier in addition to the heavy urban terrain which is a 4x multiplier.

The initial unadjusted AV of 2 is the generic AV which even an undefended base has.

Alfred

Alfred,

Do the modifiers here add or multiply? Is the final multiplier 5.75x or 7x?


Ah, this is where you have me at a disadvantage as not being a dev I'm not privy to the exact code. However my understanding is that it is compound. To illustrate my understanding, assume the following simplified situation.

1. Prior to combat the unadjusted AV of a defender is 1000.

2. The defending force is affected by the following factors.


  • heavy urban terrain = 4x modifier
  • base fortification level is 4, which = 1.75x modifer
  • defending units have no supply, which = 0.25 modifer


3. Miraculously, during the fire phase, no devices of the defending force are either destroyed or disabled.

The adjusted AV would therefore be calculated as:

(unadjusted AV)(terrain)(fortification)(supply) = {(1000)(4)(1.75)(0.25)} = 1750 adjusted AV. Note that if the defender had been in full supply the adjusted AV would have been 7000.

4. As the base fortification level before the fire fight is 4, if it is not dropped as a result of the fire fight, the attacker would need to achieve an adjusted AV of 6:1. Hence even the conditions of a totally out of supply unit as per point 2 above, would mean that the attacker would need to generate an adjusted AV of 10500 to dislodge the adjusted AV 1750 of the defending force. You can see that the attacker would have had to have brought along to the party a much greater than 3:1 force.

Alfred

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RE: Gound combat or how does 2 become 173? - 4/16/2012 3:39:54 PM   
Empire101


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That makes more sense....thanks Alfred!

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RE: Gound combat or how does 2 become 173? - 4/16/2012 3:49:29 PM   
Crackaces


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It also demonstrates that each defender point in this case is worth 1.75 AV when attrited. So some other means such as bombardment or ground attack by air has even greater value because of the final calculated worth of the AV's in that position given that the player desires to use a deliberate attack to finally dislodge them ... it is ironic that say 1 AV is killed in a rough jungle hex is worth more than 3 AV in the open ... but also the opposite is true in that fighting for a well defended rough jungle hex (or urban or whatever but clear) multiplies the value of the opponents forces ..

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RE: Gound combat or how does 2 become 173? - 4/17/2012 2:01:53 AM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


Ah, this is where you have me at a disadvantage as not being a dev I'm not privy to the exact code. However my understanding is that it is compound. To illustrate my understanding, assume the following simplified situation.

1. Prior to combat the unadjusted AV of a defender is 1000.

2. The defending force is affected by the following factors.


  • heavy urban terrain = 4x modifier
  • base fortification level is 4, which = 1.75x modifer
  • defending units have no supply, which = 0.25 modifer


3. Miraculously, during the fire phase, no devices of the defending force are either destroyed or disabled.

The adjusted AV would therefore be calculated as:

(unadjusted AV)(terrain)(fortification)(supply) = {(1000)(4)(1.75)(0.25)} = 1750 adjusted AV. Note that if the defender had been in full supply the adjusted AV would have been 7000.

4. As the base fortification level before the fire fight is 4, if it is not dropped as a result of the fire fight, the attacker would need to achieve an adjusted AV of 6:1. Hence even the conditions of a totally out of supply unit as per point 2 above, would mean that the attacker would need to generate an adjusted AV of 10500 to dislodge the adjusted AV 1750 of the defending force. You can see that the attacker would have had to have brought along to the party a much greater than 3:1 force.

Alfred


Alfred, I have found your "understandings" to be spot on. I shall put this one into the same category until evidence surfaces to the contrary.

Thanks!


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RE: Gound combat or how does 2 become 173? - 4/17/2012 11:39:39 AM   
HansBolter


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Haven't been back to this thread in a while, but I'm glad to see that the question at least prompted a discussion that has become educational for many of us.

My "opponent" Pax is the AI since I mostly limit my gameplay to Ironman against the AI on the hard difficulty setting. I was just taking advantage of the ease of luring the AI out of it's heavily defended cities by showing myself to the north of Nanking in some force, which led to the AI abandoning the city with a stack of 1300 AV to come after me, presenting me an oppurtunity to slip a single corps into the city from just south of the river. After my first turn bombardment "recon" confirmed that the two units left in the city were HQs with an AV of 2, I shocked on the next turn with the results posted.

By the third turn the AI succeeded in getting a reinforcement in which raised its AV to 89 so even though I have now moved 800+ AV in I have no chance of success. I am however now contesting the city in sufficient strength that even the return of the 1300 AV that when goose chasing to the north won't succeed in kicking me out.

I took Hankow early on with a similar technique, by attacking the southernmost city in that string of cities to the south of Hankow (can't recall the name at the moment), luring Hnkows defenders to the south and moving 3k AV (20th and 26th Armies) in from the woods NW of the city. I have kept both Armies there ever since and after resting there for 2+ months they are now over 5.2k AV.

It just seemd to me that the 2AV confirmed in the hex, with no combat squads present, was inflated a bit outrageously.

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RE: Gound combat or how does 2 become 173? - 5/17/2012 6:58:54 AM   
Yaab


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28th Chinese Corps has only Engineers (251) in its TOE.I wonder what the results would have been if you had attacked with i.e. 3rd New Chinese Corps which has Chinese Engineers Sqds (1305) in its TOE?

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RE: Gound combat or how does 2 become 173? - 5/18/2012 1:38:15 PM   
msudrala8

 

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Is there a way to tell what the defenders supply status is?

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