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Desperate Times Mod Design Concepts

 
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Desperate Times Mod Design Concepts - 4/11/2012 5:22:21 PM   
vettim89


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I had mentioned a while ago I have been contemplating creating a Mod which I call Desperate Times. The mod will be a what I would call an anti-Scenario 2. By that I mean both sides will have some of their capabilities reduced to reel in some things that just don't play out historically IMHO. Some specific things I would like to address are overly ambitious Japanese expansion that was not sustainable in RL, early war counter offensives by the Allies especially in CBI, and movements of units away from strategic areas far too soon to feed such offensives (Japan = Manchuria/Allies = Oz and HI)

I wanted to get some opinions about the ideas I am mulling, This mod is months away from becoming a reality

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RE: Desperate Times Mod Design Concepts - 4/11/2012 5:33:43 PM   
vettim89


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Economy

First, the scenario will be built around DBB-C with the 20% reduction in cargo capacities. That alone should have an effect on the game. I am contemplating toying with the inputs for the HI/LI but am a little hesitant as I am not a JFB and would hate to "screw the pooch" so to speak. I know Treespider and a few other have tweaked this and may borrow their work with permission. I definitely am leaning towards using something similar to Treespider's work as far as slowing the build up of supplies in the ContUS

Second will be tweaking the DEI. My initial research suggests there has been some amalgamation of resource and oil centers down here. I am thinking of breaking those up to place them in smaller locations just to make the Japan player have to spend more assets retrieving them all. I am also contemplating changing some oil centers to resource centers and refineries to LI. One base that would be contemplated for this is Tarakan where a large portion of its output went to diesel fuel production. That should be supply not fuel. Palembang would be another one but them we run back into the fortress palembang problem (I may have a fix for this). That base produce 75% of Japans AvGas during the war.

Lastly will be bumping the supply requirement for Aircraft Factory expansion up to make it cost a little more.







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RE: Desperate Times Mod Design Concepts - 4/11/2012 5:51:00 PM   
vettim89


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China

Unlike El Cid, I do not beleive China should be a main theater in AitP-AE. By 7 December 1941, the theater was in stalemate. Yes the Japanese did push the KMT around a bit but nothing like we see in game. When I see players driving on Chunking, I laugh because in RL it took the IJA three (or was it four) attempts to take Changsha which they did not hold for very long. China in WWII was much like Vietnam: the standing army held the major population centers but the locals held the countryside. Conversely, hate to see AFB conducting major offensives in China prior to 1945. This was more political than militarily based as both the KMT and CCP were husbanding their resources for the inevitable Chinese Civil War that everyone knew was coming.

So how to accomplish this? I go back to the occasionally seen BigB (Brian). In WitP, he created a mod that reeled in China and my mod would follow his solution (again with permission). So the KMT will be much stronger but largely static. The IJA will still be able to push the KMT out of bases but by doing so will free them to redeploy. The further the IJA pushes, the more mobile the KMT becomes. It will be like trying to push a snowball up hill. I also intend to reverse engineer the supply in China to give the Chinese just enough supply that they are not starving all the time.

Lastly will be making the CCP a force that is almost entirely static but stout (or at least more stout). I also plan to give them a few dozen partisan type units to mess with IJA supply lines.

Hoping also that AB will incorporate the PWHEX/map changes proposed recently to simulate the flooding in North Central China (along with breaking the rail line)


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RE: Desperate Times Mod Design Concepts - 4/11/2012 6:04:23 PM   
vettim89


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Reeling in the Allies - CBI

Oddly as a confirmed AFB, it bothers me more to see the Allies conducting early war offensives that were in no way feasible than the aggressive JFB taking 3/4 of the Pacific.

Three factors that the game does not and probably cannot model affected the Allies from retaking Burma sooner than they did. The first is the India famine of 1942 and 1943. The country relied on rice imports from Burma and when it fell, the situation became a crisis very quickly. The second is the combined effect of putting down the Bengal Riots and "Quit India" movement. The last is Monsoon that basically limited offensive operations to seven months a year.

The last can only be solved with a HR. Several people play with these and it would be suggested for this mod. The first problem will be dealt with by removing all the LI and most of the resources from India. Yes, I know this puts a damper on JFB desire to conquer India but maybe it should. The second problem will be to bump the garrison requirements for the Bengal Region and possibly some other areas also. These will be offset by the appearance of Police BTNs around the historical end date of the uprising. This units would be static and largely paper formations.


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RE: Desperate Times Mod Design Concepts - 4/11/2012 6:17:43 PM   
vettim89


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Reeling in the Allies - DEI/Malaya

Let's be honest here: the movement of untis out of and around this theater was not politically possible. There is no way Churchill would have authorized pulling any part of the Malaya Army out especially to defend Dutch possesions. For gosh sakes, he sent the 18th ID to its doom when it had no chance of succeeding. Ergo, entire Malaya Army becomes permanently restricted. Most of the aircraft will suffer a similar fate.

Second, all CD units will become static. They were not going to pull the CD guns out of Tarakan or anywhere else, First of all, was this even possible? I have a sneaking suspicion the guns were in permanent mounts.

Likewise, the KNIL garrisons at outlying bases will also be made static. Again, the political realities of the Dutch having no where else to go. Also, many of these formations were raised locally and likely weren't about to board a plane or ship to go defend some one else's piece of the DEI.

Lastly, PBYs will lose most of their transport capabilities. So will the Japanese flying boats except for the transport types. Not sure if I will convert them to float capable medium bombers or just nerf their lift capacities.

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RE: Desperate Times Mod Design Concepts - 4/11/2012 6:34:11 PM   
vettim89


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Reeling in the Allies - SoPac/SWPAC

As odd as it may seem, I propose to both eliminate a lot of unit "teleporting" and add some in with a hitch.

So the easy part: everything appears on the WCUSA that magically appears on outlying islands. While there are a few LCU's this will largely effect a/c. The one exception to this would be the units that actually formed in theater (later war USMC/USN units in the SoPac). So no VMF magically appears at Midway and other such silliness. Similarly no sudden occupation of places like Bora Bora

The hard part: Some units will appear on map at distant locales but in a restricted capacity. A new command will be created USFA (US Forces - Australia). This was a real command and the 33rd and 41st ID were assigned to it before SWPAC was formed. So those two divisions will be "teleported" to Oz on their arrival dates in theater. The will remain restricted until SWPAC appears. I have a number of little devices I can use to create this effect. I am leaning towarsd having them arrive as RGTs with a later arriving small fragment that allows them to become unrestricted (credit again to Treespider). The reason for this is that the Australian PM was screaming to have the troops in North Africa brought home in early 1942. Churchill appealed to FDR who arranged for those two divisions to go to Oz.

Similar situation for the 27th ID who were guarding the HI until after Midway. The will be broken up into RGTs and sent to the proper islands. Need to do some research on this one.

I thought about adding the 43rd to the list who were guarding Fiji but think that may be too restictive.

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RE: Desperate Times Mod Design Concepts - 4/11/2012 6:44:17 PM   
derp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vettim89

Likewise, the KNIL garrisons at outlying bases will also be made static. Again, the political realities of the Dutch having no where else to go. Also, many of these formations were raised locally and likely weren't about to board a plane or ship to go defend some one else's piece of the DEI.



From a purely theoretical point of view, I would rather do it the other way round; Java is the political, economic and (most importantly) logistical heart of the NEI system, and the KNIL should be tied to it; it wasn't really a mobile force - not overendowed with transportation etc - so ability to operate away from supply depots is problematic. The major supply depots, transportation infrastructure, troop accommodation etc of course are all on Java, and you can't really move buildings. Outlying garrisons should actually be fairly mobile; the Dutch tendency (this being a colonial system, after all...) was to employ troops not local to the area as far as possible (so Manadonese on Java, Javanese in Papua, Dutch wherever) - and really the little units can pretty much pack up and go wherever as long as the Resident's there to meet them on the other end and sort out food and housing, heh.

There are exceptions to that, of course - iirc the garrisons on Bali and Lombok were locally raised, and consequently dispersed when the Japanese landed on those islands rather than making a big fuss close to home...

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RE: Desperate Times Mod Design Concepts - 4/11/2012 6:50:09 PM   
Captain Cruft


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I like it all :-)

If you use DBB as a basis then the Refinery->Supply thing is already removed. I would also suggest making HI use 50% or even 100% more Resources than the default. That would drastically increase the requirements on the Japanese merchant shipping fleet and perhaps also add a limiter on production expansion.

Regarding changing the supply requirement for Aircraft Factory expansion, I am not sure this is possible. The way you do it for other factories is by changing the load cost of the device, but aircraft are not devices. It may work for Engines though, which would give more or less the same result.

Lastly, I would strongly suggest using a map with stacking limits. It's just soooo much better.

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RE: Desperate Times Mod Design Concepts - 4/11/2012 6:55:54 PM   
vettim89


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Reeling in the Japanese

Here I am short of ideas. I am hoping that the cargo reduction in DBB-C plus possibly some minor tweaking of the economy will be enough. The one idea I am toying with is a rethinking of VP for bases. There are some bases especially in the SoPac that have high VP value for Japan (Suva and Noumea come to mind) While in the game, these are nice grabs for Japan, they really are a long way away from their strategic goals. Conversely, I am always surprised at how few VP Japan gets from places like Palembang which may be the single most important base on the map. So, the concept is increase the value of the SRA along with possible increased garrison requirements while decreasing the value of the low hanging fruit in the SoPac. As this is meant to be a "historical" mod, Japan should be rewarded for "taking care of business" and detered from far reaching land grabs that really had nothing to do with the strategic plan. Now, the stickler in this to avoid creating a situation where autovictory becomes too easy to achieve for Japan in 1942/1943. Then again, if Japan takes what it truly needed and lays a stinging defeat or two on the Allies in the SoPac, shouldn't an Autovictory be possible. In my mind, Autovictory for Japan is not necessarily "winning" the war but getting to the point where FDR had to make the call to Churchill to say "Europe First" is just not doable considering the present circumstances.

So following this thought, boost VP of Oil/Refinery Center hexes, lower significantly VP for locales in the SoPac, lower significantly VP for anything on the wrong side of the "line of death" in India and Oz, and increase garrison requirements in the SRA. By pushing the base VP to a point closer to autovictory just by having Japan take what it did historically, it may make the Allied player a little more conservative about protecting anything that might push the Japan player over the threshhold

This will take a lot of work to figure out.

< Message edited by vettim89 -- 4/11/2012 7:28:37 PM >


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RE: Desperate Times Mod Design Concepts - 4/11/2012 7:27:07 PM   
vettim89


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

I like it all :-)

If you use DBB as a basis then the Refinery->Supply thing is already removed. I would also suggest making HI use 50% or even 100% more Resources than the default. That would drastically increase the requirements on the Japanese merchant shipping fleet and perhaps also add a limiter on production expansion.

Regarding changing the supply requirement for Aircraft Factory expansion, I am not sure this is possible. The way you do it for other factories is by changing the load cost of the device, but aircraft are not devices. It may work for Engines though, which would give more or less the same result.

Lastly, I would strongly suggest using a map with stacking limits. It's just soooo much better.



I am actually proposing the opposite. Decrease the amount of fuel produced at these bases in exchange for more supply. This has two effects. First creating supply producing centers in the DEI which then could be destributed to forward bases. Second decreasing the total amount of fuel avaiable for HI

I am sure some one posted a method to alter the supply requirement for factory expansions. Just can't find it right now

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RE: Desperate Times Mod Design Concepts - 4/12/2012 2:39:20 AM   
Captain Cruft


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To alter the supply requirement for repairing an industry type modify the load cost of the relevant device. Up to a maximum of 5,000.

As I said, aircraft are not devices so I don't think it will work with them.

The requirements for actually expanding an industry are hard-coded. It is only the repair cost that can be altered.

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RE: Desperate Times Mod Design Concepts - 4/12/2012 4:32:28 AM   
vettim89


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

To alter the supply requirement for repairing an industry type modify the load cost of the relevant device. Up to a maximum of 5,000.

As I said, aircraft are not devices so I don't think it will work with them.

The requirements for actually expanding an industry are hard-coded. It is only the repair cost that can be altered.



That was what I was thinking about. Must have become confused because I thought it could be done with a/c factories also.

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RE: Desperate Times Mod Design Concepts - 4/12/2012 9:40:08 AM   
Blackhorse


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Another (small) thing you can do: make the Thai divisions static at start, with the ability to 'upgrade' out of the static devices on January 25, 1942, when Thailand declared war vs. the allies. Add a HR: Thai LCUs cannot cross beyond the Salween river, and cannot move into an enemy-occupied hex outside of Thailand. The Thais can garrison Moulmein and abandoned British bases on the Burma/Thai peninsula, but will not initiate combat against the Western Allies.



quote:

ORIGINAL: vettim89

Reeling in the Japanese

Here I am short of ideas. I am hoping that the cargo reduction in DBB-C plus possibly some minor tweaking of the economy will be enough. The one idea I am toying with is a rethinking of VP for bases. There are some bases especially in the SoPac that have high VP value for Japan (Suva and Noumea come to mind) While in the game, these are nice grabs for Japan, they really are a long way away from their strategic goals. Conversely, I am always surprised at how few VP Japan gets from places like Palembang which may be the single most important base on the map. So, the concept is increase the value of the SRA along with possible increased garrison requirements while decreasing the value of the low hanging fruit in the SoPac. As this is meant to be a "historical" mod, Japan should be rewarded for "taking care of business" and detered from far reaching land grabs that really had nothing to do with the strategic plan. Now, the stickler in this to avoid creating a situation where autovictory becomes too easy to achieve for Japan in 1942/1943. Then again, if Japan takes what it truly needed and lays a stinging defeat or two on the Allies in the SoPac, shouldn't an Autovictory be possible. In my mind, Autovictory for Japan is not necessarily "winning" the war but getting to the point where FDR had to make the call to Churchill to say "Europe First" is just not doable considering the present circumstances.

So following this thought, boost VP of Oil/Refinery Center hexes, lower significantly VP for locales in the SoPac, lower significantly VP for anything on the wrong side of the "line of death" in India and Oz, and increase garrison requirements in the SRA. By pushing the base VP to a point closer to autovictory just by having Japan take what it did historically, it may make the Allied player a little more conservative about protecting anything that might push the Japan player over the threshhold

This will take a lot of work to figure out.



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RE: Desperate Times Mod Design Concepts - 4/12/2012 2:26:21 PM   
Shark7


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Seems you plan to end the Brave Sir Robin strategy...whatever will the AFBs do?

One thing I might suggest though is to be sure to put the units in India restricted commands so they can't be easily brought out early.

Basically restrict them for the first 2 years, maybe putting them into full unrestricted commands in 1944.

As for Japan, you should probably put all of the Manchuuko units into a permanently restricted command so they can't be moved out. I think many of them already are, but some can be bought out IIRC.

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RE: Desperate Times Mod Design Concepts - 4/12/2012 9:01:33 PM   
treespider


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Care to collaborate?

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Here's a link to:
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RE: Desperate Times Mod Design Concepts - 4/13/2012 3:49:26 AM   
JeffK


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In Australia, set up garrison requirements in all of the Capital Cities (Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth, Hobart) which forces the Australian Army to disperse rather than defend a single point or move too much into combat zones.
IMHO, a Div equiv for Sydney, a Bde equiv for Melbourne, Brisbane & Perth with Bn equiv in Hobart, Pt Kembla, Newcastle & Adelaide.

This leaves about 2 CMF Divs plus the AIF for combat. (I would also HR a restriction of using the CMF units outside of OZ & PNG)

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RE: Desperate Times Mod Design Concepts - 4/13/2012 2:47:26 PM   
Shark7


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Simple reasoning:

The units in India stayed in India to due to a number of factors. However, these factors eased later.

As far as Manchuuko, the Japanese kept that garrison there and all but locked down due to the Soviet threat. The politics of it would have prevented them from being moved.

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RE: Desperate Times Mod Design Concepts - 4/13/2012 4:02:10 PM   
MateDow


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

In Australia, set up garrison requirements in all of the Capital Cities (Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth, Hobart) which forces the Australian Army to disperse rather than defend a single point or move too much into combat zones.
IMHO, a Div equiv for Sydney, a Bde equiv for Melbourne, Brisbane & Perth with Bn equiv in Hobart, Pt Kembla, Newcastle & Adelaide.

This leaves about 2 CMF Divs plus the AIF for combat. (I would also HR a restriction of using the CMF units outside of OZ & PNG)


Are you looking to restrict Australian units from operating outside of Australia, or moving within the country?

If you are looking for outside Australia, permanently restrict those units, and leave a limited amount unlockable for operations outside of the country.

If you are looking to restrict the movement of Australian units around the country, I don't understand the rationale. The Australians (Allied player) should be able to move the Army to defend the country in whatever way they see fit. If that is concentrated in a single point, that has risks as well.

I don't see the need a requirement for garrison in the same way as India or China where you face a population that might not be friendly to the controlling government.

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RE: Desperate Times Mod Design Concepts - 4/13/2012 6:18:37 PM   
vettim89


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MateDow


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

In Australia, set up garrison requirements in all of the Capital Cities (Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth, Hobart) which forces the Australian Army to disperse rather than defend a single point or move too much into combat zones.
IMHO, a Div equiv for Sydney, a Bde equiv for Melbourne, Brisbane & Perth with Bn equiv in Hobart, Pt Kembla, Newcastle & Adelaide.

This leaves about 2 CMF Divs plus the AIF for combat. (I would also HR a restriction of using the CMF units outside of OZ & PNG)


Are you looking to restrict Australian units from operating outside of Australia, or moving within the country?

If you are looking for outside Australia, permanently restrict those units, and leave a limited amount unlockable for operations outside of the country.

If you are looking to restrict the movement of Australian units around the country, I don't understand the rationale. The Australians (Allied player) should be able to move the Army to defend the country in whatever way they see fit. If that is concentrated in a single point, that has risks as well.

I don't see the need a requirement for garrison in the same way as India or China where you face a population that might not be friendly to the controlling government.


No, I have no desire in restricting the forces within Australia from moving freely. They need to be able to respond to a Japanese invasion if it were to occur. My focus is on modeling the political and diplomatic realities that Oz had to be defended in the same way Manchuria needed to be defended. Hindsight says that the Sovs were not going to enter the war prior to 1945, but the Japanese did not know that with any degree of certainty. Ergo a large standing army was needed to deal with the possibility not the reality. So when the Australian PM started screaming that the Autralian populace was not going to sit at risk of invasion while their boys were fighting for Tobruk, something had to be done. What was done was to send two USA IDs to Oz. This mod will make that a reality. Likewise the 27th ID was sent to the HI to guard against an invasion. Again, reality says that was not going to happen but the possibility had to be accounted for in Allied planning.

All these things are meant to introduce non-military aspects into the game that shaped the RL commanders' decisions.

BTW, Treespider and I are officially working together on this mod. Already great information being shared (mostly by him to me)



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RE: Desperate Times Mod Design Concepts - 4/14/2012 7:49:30 AM   
inqistor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vettim89

Reeling in the Japanese

Here I am short of ideas. I am hoping that the cargo reduction in DBB-C plus possibly some minor tweaking of the economy will be enough. The one idea I am toying with is a rethinking of VP for bases. There are some bases especially in the SoPac that have high VP value for Japan (Suva and Noumea come to mind) While in the game, these are nice grabs for Japan, they really are a long way away from their strategic goals. Conversely, I am always surprised at how few VP Japan gets from places like Palembang which may be the single most important base on the map. So, the concept is increase the value of the SRA along with possible increased garrison requirements while decreasing the value of the low hanging fruit in the SoPac. As this is meant to be a "historical" mod, Japan should be rewarded for "taking care of business" and detered from far reaching land grabs that really had nothing to do with the strategic plan. Now, the stickler in this to avoid creating a situation where autovictory becomes too easy to achieve for Japan in 1942/1943. Then again, if Japan takes what it truly needed and lays a stinging defeat or two on the Allies in the SoPac, shouldn't an Autovictory be possible. In my mind, Autovictory for Japan is not necessarily "winning" the war but getting to the point where FDR had to make the call to Churchill to say "Europe First" is just not doable considering the present circumstances.

So following this thought, boost VP of Oil/Refinery Center hexes, lower significantly VP for locales in the SoPac, lower significantly VP for anything on the wrong side of the "line of death" in India and Oz, and increase garrison requirements in the SRA. By pushing the base VP to a point closer to autovictory just by having Japan take what it did historically, it may make the Allied player a little more conservative about protecting anything that might push the Japan player over the threshhold

This will take a lot of work to figure out.

Actually, if you are aiming toward auto-victory, it is more important how much the base is worth for the enemy, not you. Remember, that depending of year, what points enemy loses, is worth for you up to 4 times as much, as you do not need to get that much points.

But YOUR points for base can be increased by upgrading such base. So if there is possibility of much upgrades, the more points base is worth, the better possible benefit, even when you do not need it to be so large.

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Post #: 20
RE: Desperate Times Mod Design Concepts - 4/14/2012 6:10:33 PM   
vettim89


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Inquisitor,

Dead on point here. Messing with the VP for bases is a dangerous thing as you may activate the law of unintended consequences. I am working with an idea where base VP will be rationalized. By that I mean bases will be worth the same if they share the same general locale. At present certain bases are worth more because in RL they were considered more important. However, a point could be made that once we diverge from reality on Turn 1, the players choose what is important. Also, both sides get very few VPs from holding their own territory but see large VPs assigned to the opponent if they lose it. For example: Akita has a base VP of 1 for Japan and 50 for Allies. Conversely, Los Angeles had a base VP of 100 for Japan and 1 for Allies.

I am considering changing that paradigm. You need to hold your own stuff and should be rewarded for doing so. If I am able to figure it out, VPs from base points will remain nearly the same but will be alloted differently. The goal will be to create potential "knock out punches" because if you lose a vital base not only does your opponent get a big VP boost but you lose a bunch. On the decreasing VP sides, many bases will simply be worth 1 VP to both sides. At present, a Japan player can nab some fairly hearty VPs by taking NE Oz (Exmouth, Port Hedland, Broome, et al). Those will be decreased significantly but you get below the "line of death" and now we're talking. If the japan player has the cajones to cross the line, he should be rewarded. Conversely if he/she chooses to just dance around in Oz or India with no intention of crossing the line then "No VPs for you!"

On an aside, I fully intend to change the LOD reinforcements. If one were to assume that this would occur most likely in either late '42, or early '43 then the only forces not in contact with the Germans at the time were US forces. The reinforcements would be USA specifically the Torch forces. I know many would disagree with me on that but its my Mod and that's the way it is going to be. So yes, cross the LOD in Oz and you get a full US Armored Division added to the Allied OOB (if the game would allow for leaders to be tied to units prior to reinforcement, I'd put Patton in charge)

These are just thoughts in my mind right now and need serious filling out

_____________________________

"We have met the enemy and they are ours" - Commodore O.H. Perry

(in reply to inqistor)
Post #: 21
RE: Desperate Times Mod Design Concepts - 4/22/2012 2:57:59 AM   
topeverest

 

Posts: 2225
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Houston, TX - USA
Status: online
You have a lot of moving parts, so it is unclear how this might play out. Since both sides are manifestly reduced, wouldnt one likely potnetial outcome even more favor the aggressive and better player, since the other side wont have nearly as many ground forces available to move around until later in the game. I think it becomes more of an early naval simulation with these changes.

I also get a bit confused at the cargo capacity reductions and DEI fuel swapouts. I think the devil is in the details there. Since we all know a mostly historical empire capabilties simulation without any upward potential through good luck and good play would not be very interesting to many players, what is the desired new balance point in the game? Without a material capability to strip Manchukuo (and nsome of the other restrictions), I would expect Oz and India are never going to be in danger in real terms, handing a large factor to the allies.

Am I seeing this wrong?

_____________________________

Andy M

(in reply to vettim89)
Post #: 22
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