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Air power against ships

 
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Air power against ships - 4/10/2012 7:43:27 AM   
Polonthi

 

Posts: 494
Joined: 6/4/2006
Status: offline 		So using CV's with the UK I realized that there is a vast difference between attacking a fleet of say then BB/CA instead of 1 CA for example.

As a result I would do more hit with 1 CV attacking 10 enemy ships than with 4 CV attacking 1 ship.

I guess there is a factor of the number of ships that increase the chance to hit and than there is a chance for an air attack to hit each and every ship but it ignores the fact that more ships means more AA so a few planes attacking a lot of ships shouldn't be more efficient at dealing damage than a lot of planes attacking 1 ship.

Based on all accounts I would expect the first case to lead to loosing planes and dealing a few hits while in the other case the 4 CV would just get rid of that ship in a matter of minutes.

On another matter don't ever move ships along a coast where your enemy has TAC or STRAT bombers... unless it's the AI.

Those will deal so much damage to your fleet that you'll have a hard time rebuilding it.

Of course this creates a huge problem to prevent Sea Lion. Based on playing against the AI I fail to see how someone can prevent Germany to take out the UK... air or no air supremacy.
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RE: Air power against ships - 4/10/2012 7:47:59 AM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5237
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		As you might realize the Sea Zones are pretty large areas, so it is much easier to find 10 ships with 50 planes rather than 1 ship with 200 planes.

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RE: Air power against ships - 4/10/2012 7:57:14 AM   
Polonthi

 

Posts: 494
Joined: 6/4/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader
As you might realize the Sea Zones are pretty large areas, so it is much easier to find 10 ships with 50 planes rather than 1 ship with 200 planes.

And how do you explain the multiple damage done by the 50 planes?

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RE: Air power against ships - 4/10/2012 8:05:55 AM   
Polonthi

 

Posts: 494
Joined: 6/4/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader
As you might realize the Sea Zones are pretty large areas, so it is much easier to find 10 ships with 50 planes rather than 1 ship with 200 planes.

By the way let me explain something to you about how CV's were used to strike against ships.

If they didn't have spotted the enemy by another mean (radar or land based aircraft) then they were using spotters in a 360 degree pattern if needed or in a variable degree search if the enemy position could be estimate (previous spotting or any other previous report of their presence).

Once the spotter would confirm the presence of the enemy ships then it would communicate that info to the strike force who would send its planes against the target.

CV's will never send all their planes in a wild goose chase by themselves... to suggest this is showing a lack of understanding of how WW2 was fought.

Now that you want to simplify things and avoid that fine but even so it is implemented in the game with the recon option out of the CV's which I thought was brilliant.

< Message edited by Polonthi -- 4/10/2012 8:06:48 AM >

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RE: Air power against ships - 4/10/2012 8:49:12 AM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5237
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		You don't have to explain me how does the CV operates now and during the world war 2.

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RE: Air power against ships - 4/10/2012 3:31:42 PM   
Polonthi

 

Posts: 494
Joined: 6/4/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader
You don't have to explain me how does the CV operates now and during the world war 2.

Just trying to help and by the way you still didn't explain how the damage of Naval units works to hit many target with 1 air unit but nothing if only 1 ship.

I'm curious.

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RE: Air power against ships - 4/10/2012 5:21:28 PM   
Grimnirsson


Posts: 101
Joined: 12/25/2011
Status: online 		Hi Polonthi,

quote:

Just trying to help...


well, actually I start wondering what you really want to achieve with these endless postings about how broken the game is. Unfortunately I didn't have much time to play the game so far (I hope that this situation will change soon, though) so I certainly can't argue the specific points in question. But from what I could read here by other players, especially gwgardeners interesting AARs and postings or the replies you got from Doom or Razz, I didn't get the impression ToF is 'not finished' 'doesn't work at all' or is 'totally broken'. And that's what seems to be what you try to tell us.

If that is so, I think we all got it by now and if the game is what you think it is - an unfinished product - I would say try to get a refund by Matrix. I fail to see any point in more and more postings about this, really. People who play the game and think it's fine (I'm sure it does have flaws, any game has) won't change their mind and give up the game. You will not change your opinion on the game either. And all the replies by Doom regarding that this or that is WAD, has this or that chance of happening (it's not a game that follows strictly the historic events and that is not what I want btw - there should a possibility that things evolve differently) or are indeed intended to work out the way they (sometimes) do are obviously not what you are expecting.

And why do you bother with an unfinished product that much? I am a board wargamer and came across some really broken and bad games. I also discussed them with the designers and had some hot debates and all but eventually I moved on to other games, more worth of my time and money. Of course there were many players who enjoyed these games, but that didn't help me much so it was case closed for me since I had reasons for my judgement of these products. But I can't imagine to post about them forever ;)

So, tell me what is it that you expect to happen? A complete overhaul of the game? Changes on all points you make? Or what else? :)

brgds,

Grim

< Message edited by Grimnirsson -- 4/10/2012 5:22:56 PM >

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RE: Air power against ships - 4/10/2012 7:48:37 PM   
johanssb

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 1/2/2012
Status: offline 		I agree with Polonthi that certain aspects of the game, such as the handling of convoys, and the use of air power against ships are currently broken.

Maybe Polonthi is looking for confirmation that these "bugs" will be addressed in a patch.

Also, Polonthi is not the first one to bring up these issues. I'm sure he has recently started playing this game and is running into the same issues that other players have previously encountered and complained about.

Is there any way to get confirmation that these areas are being worked on ?

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Post #: 8
RE: Air power against ships - 4/11/2012 2:48:27 AM   
Razz


Posts: 2499
Joined: 10/21/2007
From: CaLiForNia
Status: offline 		It's been posted twice by Doom that they are looking at re-routing convoys.

Air power was addressed in 1.01
Allot of it has to do with large fleets in a sea zone as posted above.
It may be tweaked again.

Polonthi, I believe it was answered. Detection is the key. Easy to detect small fleet over large fleet in a sea zone.

When you hover over a sea zone... it will say what is present.
One die is rolled. Easy to miss.

Now, for a larger fleet... lets say 6 ships, 6 die rolls for a hit. I think it rolls again for a double hit. Then one more shake of the dice for a kill.

That's 3 shakes x 6 verses 3 shakes x 1.

Either way, you can see ... more ships more die rolls.

I know some times it helps to do another reconnoiter of the sea zone before attack. The risk ... however is not detecting that one ship.

Remember in your example, a scout plane finds a ship. Reports back. Squadron is sent to attack. Perhaps more than one.

Then when the squadrons arrive, they have to do another search.

WHY?

Because the target has moved.
It could be a false reporting.
Weather has changed.
The Captain decided to move.


I would blame the Captain for moving because he didn't want to be a sitting Duck.





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Post #: 9
RE: Air power against ships - 4/12/2012 2:29:06 AM   
JLPOWELL


Posts: 373
Joined: 5/5/2011
From: Pacific Time Zone
Status: offline 		Yea but if you do FIND that one ship it is DEAD all 200 (or 50) planes will be back within hours. Naval battles were decisive (at least when Naval air was involved land based air was not nearly as effective)

Currently land based air rules and surface combat and CV are mostly harmless. Just counted 16 CV strikes on a CA using entire UK and USN in the Atlantic. It got away damaged but then got killed in port by STR. Sorry Doom laughable results back to the drawing board.

Also it would be useful to have the UI display the 'dice rolls' at present you can't tell if its a run of horrible luck a bug, or just a harmless CRT.

If you want to simulate the idea that more ships are easier to find thats good but finding and attacking should be two separate steps. In addition at least IMO land based air is too strong and CV ridiculously weak vrs surface ships.

A CA found by several CV battle groups should be 'roadkill' not 'roadrunner' CV weapons not provided by ACME, missions not flown by Wile E Coyote.

quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

As you might realize the Sea Zones are pretty large areas, so it is much easier to find 10 ships with 50 planes rather than 1 ship with 200 planes.






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RE: Air power against ships - 4/12/2012 2:32:48 AM   
JLPOWELL


Posts: 373
Joined: 5/5/2011
From: Pacific Time Zone
Status: offline 		Using that logic 1000 ships attacked by one Tac air will yield hundreds of damaged ships (most likely none sunk however) Actually that's what the game system would do if you got that many ships in a zone.... Giant fleet returns to port and buys LOTS of paint.

Sorry bad design. Fixable but not defensible.

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