Yamamoto...

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Footslogger
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Yamamoto...

Post by Footslogger »

Had Yamamoto not been killed in 1943, would of been the possibilites on the outcome of the war?
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RE: Yamamoto...

Post by Torplexed »

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Had Yamamoto not been killed in 1943, would of been the possibilites on the outcome of the war?


None. The man who engineered the debacle at Midway and the attritional air war in the South Pacific that gutted Japan's air power probably wasn't going to come up with any miracles to turn the tide of the war.
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RE: Yamamoto...

Post by wdolson »

Yamamoto was sort of a bipolar strategist. Sometimes he was brilliant, other times he was terrible.

Throwing air power at the South Pacific was not as bad a decision as the whole Midway campaign. Up to that point, Japanese air power had proven to usually be superior to the Americans, so it was not unreasonable to believe that throwing more aircraft at the problem was not going to break the back of the Cactus Air Force and enable Japan to take back Guadalcanal. The US changed the calculus by learning from earlier mistakes and adjusting doctrine accordingly.

IMO, Midway was top to bottom a crazy idea.

Back to the original question, by early 1943 the die had been cast and Japan was certain to lose the war. From the start the only way the Allies would have lost is if they had lost the will to fight, but by 1943, that will was solidly set and it was obvious to anyone who understood American production abilities that the end was only a question of when.

Yamamoto may have pulled off a nasty surprise here or there to create to extra casualties, but ultimately, the war would most likely have gone down the path it did on pretty much the same timeline.

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RE: Yamamoto...

Post by Commander Stormwolf »


Yamamoto would have been the worst commander in history... if IJN carriers were ambushed at pearl harbor and sunk
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RE: Yamamoto...

Post by Commander Stormwolf »


...though he was able to delay that by 6 months

really his worst move was (literally) pull the chair from under tojo at a staff meeting

bad IJN / IJA relations were a big part of the demise

also..if there was no pearl harbor, USN probably charges across the pacific (warplan orange)
and gets sunk by LBA torpedo planes
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RE: Yamamoto...

Post by Footslogger »

So if Operation MO was an idiotic jester, why didn't the IJN just let Yamamoto, and his staff resign?
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RE: Yamamoto...

Post by Commander Stormwolf »


MO was coral sea - capture of port moresby

and it was a decent idea, except the forces were not properly concetrated (typical of japanese offensives)
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RE: Yamamoto...

Post by vontiger »

Would have been much more interesting if Yamamoto had used Midway as a diversion and placed all his carriers for the invasion of Port Moresby....
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RE: Yamamoto...

Post by Commander Stormwolf »

Would have been much more interesting if Yamamoto had used Midway as a diversion and placed all his carriers for the invasion of Port Moresby....


[8D] yep


but they still get sunk when he goes for New Caledonia [:D]
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RE: Yamamoto...

Post by Historiker »

And a diversion with what? What carriers? Sending in the transports alone? [&:]

Coral sea was already happened. He should have decided to either go for a target with all power or not to go at all. A target not worth all of KB isn't worth any commitment at all.
His genius was the idea to combine one of the attrition tools for the decisive battle, the carriers, to one unit and let them act without the battleships. That, and maybe his descision to attack PH - which can be discussed...
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RE: Yamamoto...

Post by Commander Stormwolf »


also smarter to send the battleships and cruisers ahead of the carriers (like IJN did at santa cruz)


santa cruz is probably the best battle the IJN fought.. besides sinking prince of wales + repulse
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RE: Yamamoto...

Post by Footslogger »

Since the IJN had six carriers and only two were used on Operation MO, what did the other four carriers do during this operation?
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RE: Yamamoto...

Post by Commander Stormwolf »

Since the IJN had six carriers and only two were used on Operation MO, what did the other four carriers do during this operation?

Another question is .. what was Zuikaku doing during Midway (and why did they separate zuiho and ryujo.. and where were the 4 seaplane carriers?)
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RE: Yamamoto...

Post by Commander Stormwolf »


yeah the waters around midway should have been covered with 100 jakes from the 4 seplane carriers..
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RE: Yamamoto...

Post by vontiger »

.
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RE: Yamamoto...

Post by vontiger »

ORIGINAL: Historiker

And a diversion with what? What carriers? Sending in the transports alone? [&:]


Coral sea was already happened. He should have decided to either go for a target with all power or not to go at all. A target not worth all of KB isn't worth any commitment at all.
His genius was the idea to combine one of the attrition tools for the decisive battle, the carriers, to one unit and let them act without the battleships. That, and maybe his descision to attack PH - which can be discussed...

Why did he need to do anything... the diversion was to say they were going to hit Midway... it kept the Enterprise and Hornet at PH. If he had then sent the KB to Coral Sea... The Americans would have lost the Yorktown and Lexington, Port Moresby would have been captured and from Cairns to Brisbane the AF and Ports would have been bombed... and it would have meant that the Americans/Australians would have had to attack and capture Port Moresby rather then skip it like they did Rabaul.
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RE: Yamamoto...

Post by Torplexed »

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Since the IJN had six carriers and only two were used on Operation MO, what did the other four carriers do during this operation?

They were in port in Japan being hurriedly refitted and replenished for the Midway Operation.
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RE: Yamamoto...

Post by ilovestrategy »

It would not have changed anything. By 1944 the US had a totally different navy in every concievable way. By 1943 most of the Jap old school pilots were dead along with the maintanence crews from the 4 lost carriers at Midway. Even with newly built carriers the skill of the old crews was gone. And having Essex class carriers rolling out of the dry docks, a first class logistics system and the worlds strongest country out for blood, Yamamato being alive would have made no difference.
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RE: Yamamoto...

Post by Historiker »

ORIGINAL: vontiger
ORIGINAL: Historiker

And a diversion with what? What carriers? Sending in the transports alone? [&:]


Coral sea was already happened. He should have decided to either go for a target with all power or not to go at all. A target not worth all of KB isn't worth any commitment at all.
His genius was the idea to combine one of the attrition tools for the decisive battle, the carriers, to one unit and let them act without the battleships. That, and maybe his descision to attack PH - which can be discussed...

Why did he need to do anything... the diversion was to say they were going to hit Midway... it kept the Enterprise and Hornet at PH. If he had then sent the KB to Coral Sea... The Americans would have lost the Yorktown and Lexington, Port Moresby would have been captured and from Cairns to Brisbane the AF and Ports would have been bombed... and it would have meant that the Americans/Australians would have had to attack and capture Port Moresby rather then skip it like they did Rabaul.
And say that to whom? Sending a telegraph to Washington? Using undecrypted radio?
He was sure that he will surprise the US as he never anticipated the code to be broken. So there was no way to "say that".

Coral sea only ended this way because the IJHQ expected the two+one carrier to be more than enough and because the allied had the vague picture they won't meet the full KB. Sending the full KB would've brought them PM, but most likely no carriers. But sending full KB hasn't happened for good reason.

So that's fantasy [:)]
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RE: Yamamoto...

Post by PizzaMan »

What is exciting about all these theories, is that they can be tested in WitP-AE.
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