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RE: Yamamoto...

 
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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 5:57:11 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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quote:

They weren't remotely as tough as, for example, a B-17.


Agreed.

But emilies could absorb at least as much damage as a B-24. The battle with the aircobras, surviving hits
from 37mm, aircobras run out of ammo and go home

Cannon fire from the fighters exploded in the rear gunner's compartment. The planes continued their attack until they ran out of ammunition. The Emily made it safely back to base.

http://www.michaelmcfadyenscuba.info/viewpage.php?page_id=225

Emily had 1850hp engines while the USAAF 1st generation 4E used 1200 hp engines. Floatplane ability removes about 20% performance.
The large engines mean it can fly as fast as a B-24 and have the same ordnance capability, but doesn't need an airfield.
A land-based non-float emily would be quite an impressive beast (but not as good as a B-29 of course)

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Post #: 91
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 6:06:55 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FDRLincoln

Well, personally I don't think Yamamoto SHOULD have been charged...


ok. Charged with what?

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Post #: 92
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 6:07:49 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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quote:

Emilies were routinely shot down in the various CV battles around the Solomons


As were lone B-17s, a single plane is easy prey but a formation has strength

quote:

But against a US CV cap, you're looking at zero hits and 90% casualties (for ex the early Rabaul Raid produced pretty much exactly that result).


9 Betties with no escort against CV cap, yes. 54 Betties and 54 Zeroes, would mean Lexington sinks

the japaneses forces were badly allocated. all the airfield suppression tasks could have been assigned to the IJA,
instead IJN torpedo planes were wasted in the early months against land targets.

that was Yamamoto's biggest flaw, his bad relations with the army (he literally pulled a chair from under tojo at a staff meeting)

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Post #: 93
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 6:17:09 PM   
Gräfin Zeppelin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I see Iron Sky is doing well.

Lets see what else we Finns can foist on you...

The world would be a boring place with out you Finnish maniacs



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Post #: 94
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 6:37:27 PM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

But emilies could absorb at least as much damage as a B-24.


Not generally. No. A lone B-17 or B-24 was much more difficult to knock down than an Emily.

quote:

The battle with the aircobras, surviving hits from 37mm, aircobras run out of ammo and go home


Stuff happens. Stuff that happens consistently matters. Emilies weren't especially durable. Tougher than G4Ms, but that is not saying much.

54 Zekes and 54 G4Ms against an early war USN CAP wasn't going to happen. Rabaul did not have the facilities to support all of that in February 1942. And G4Ms were not very easy to come by even in April 1942. The IJNAF had *alot* on its plate.

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 4/10/2012 6:39:07 PM >


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Post #: 95
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 6:41:57 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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quote:

B-24 was much more difficult to knock down than an Emily


B-24 was far less durable than a B-17, hated by the crews who wanted to stay on B-17s

B-24 was a plane built on the cheap,with small engines but easy to mass produce

Emily was a B-24 with floats, and was the best anti-submarine, torpedo, and long-range bmr platform
available to the japanese

what would be better.. 1000 sallies or 500 emilies

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Post #: 96
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 7:10:17 PM   
mdiehl

 

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The Emily wasn't the plane you imagine it to have been. Less payload than the B-24. Same max airspeed. 5 cannons but only 3 of them in useful places. 5 Mgs but all 7mm not .50cal/12.5mm. Lower wing loading true, but that is because it had virtually no armor protection around any of the crewed area (armored seatbacks in the pilots' seats only). No fire suppressors in the wings or fuel tanks either. Some, but not all, of its fuel tanks had liners/"self sealers."

The B-24 was loved by some despised by others, mostly on the grounds of the high wing loading and central fuel tank. All of its fuel tanks had liners. For fending off enemy fighters, the .50cal was much more effective than the H8's 20mm gun.

The Emily had no autopilot for long flights. No bombardier controlled flight system, so it's accuracy at high altitude even for large fixed land targets was nil. It was in every respect no solution for strategic bombing and vastly inferior to the B-24 as a strategic bomber.

The Emily was designed for a particular role and most useful for that role. Recon. Throw a formation of 200 H8Ks at any west coast facility after April 1942 and you'd lose 185 Emilies and be lucky to put one bomb within 1 km of one target.

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 4/10/2012 7:13:17 PM >


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Post #: 97
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 7:15:26 PM   
mdiehl

 

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Here is a diagram of the armor layout on a B-24. Much more armor protection than the H8K.
Black areas are armored. Shaded areas are angles from which armor gives protection.

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/B-24_Stuff.html

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Post #: 98
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 7:36:44 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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Emily's fuel tank were in the armored hull, with full fire suppression, self sealing, and even a pump recycling system so damaged tanks could be emptied into non-damaged tanks

There were a few naked tanks in the wings, but those were small and used on the inbound leg.
I agree, those need to be removed.. and add 2 more hardpoints instead (really didn't need 32 hexes range)

B-24 was strucutrally unsound, its wings bent downwards with a load and were a lot more vulnerable to flak
as well as HE rounds from luftwaffe fighters

Emily had major armor for the crew, It takes a whole flight of fighters to take down an emily with the small 12.7mm guns of USN

-----------------------------------------

but remember each plane has its flaws, B24 was built for numbers, to a price, with small inexpensive engines, B17 was excellent,
1850hp mean H8K can perform as well as a B24 with 1200hp

H8K was the only heavy design available to the japanese that could have an impact

with a radar and depth charges, it sinks submarines
with torpedoes, it sinks ships
with a bombsight, it can suppress airfields like sally or betty never could


as a rule flying boats cannot compete with land based counterparts
as an exception, there is Emily



< Message edited by Commander Stormwolf -- 4/10/2012 7:40:41 PM >


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Post #: 99
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 8:18:21 PM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

It takes a whole flight of fighters to take down an emily with the small 12.7mm guns of USN


Nope. Not generally. Emilies weren't all that difficult to shoot down. Sure there is the occasional one off where an H8K survived, but they weren't near as tough as B-24s. IIRC a couple of Emilies were shot down by PBYs.

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Post #: 100
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 8:20:27 PM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

with a radar and depth charges, it sinks submarines
with torpedoes, it sinks ships
with a bombsight, it can suppress airfields like sally or betty never could


It could do none of those things very well. Less accurate with a torp than a Betty, less accurate with a bomb than anything flown by the allies, less capable with a d.c. and radar than your average Fairey Swordfish.

The B-24 was a much stronger design for bombing *anything* than the H8K.

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Post #: 101
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 9:34:09 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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quote:

with a radar and depth charges, it sinks submarines
with torpedoes, it sinks ships
with a bombsight, it can suppress airfields like sally or betty never could


sank submarines quite well -->(only problem was there were so few emilies)

torpedoes --> never had the chance to prove itself, but if you fire 4 torpedoes at a time and your hull can survive 37mm rounds, you will sink plenty

ordnance --> allied stuff was accurate because they came over by the thousand

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Post #: 102
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 9:42:21 PM   
Sardaukar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I see Iron Sky is doing well.

Lets see what else we Finns can foist on you...

The world would be a boring place with out you Finnish maniacs




Hey! You sold those to us! (not meaning speed cams)

http://www.kmweg.de/de/



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Post #: 103
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 9:55:43 PM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

sank submarines quite well -->(only problem was there were so few emilies)


Uh, no, actually, it did not sink submarines quite well. In point of fact, there were no documented submarine kills solely by H8Ks as, for example, there were by PBYs.

quote:

torpedoes --> never had the chance to prove itself, but if you fire 4 torpedoes at a time and your hull can survive 37mm rounds, you will sink plenty


In general, H8Ks could not survive multiple 37mm hits. Anything large enough with enough space however can survive hits on noncritical systems. H8Ks did not have *engine fire extinguishers" and the *8* small wing tanks were both unprotected and lacked extinguishers. That is why they were not a challenge for single and paired off F4Fs and, in at least one documented instance, a B-24 (in the guise of a PB4Y), and in another instance, a PBY, were able to readily shoot them down. No one would argue that a PBY is a great interceptor, nor a PB4Y. In general, Emilies were Large Slow Targets by comparison with interceptors, and weakly armored and otherwise protected. Weak armor was certainly better than NO armor, but it was not remotely as durable as Allied 4E types. Even the Short Sunderland, after which the H8K was allegedly engineered, was a much tougher mule.

As to torpedoes. It would have been a lousy platform for delivering torpedoes. In that role, the PBY was likewise a lousy platform for delivering *anti-shipping* torpedoes, but there are at least two documented instances of the PBY obtaining torpedo hits when pressed into service in that role. That is vs. none for the H8K.

If the H8K had been any good at it, the Japanese probably would have tried it.

quote:

ordnance --> allied stuff was accurate because they came over by the thousand


Non-sequitur. Quantity in theater has nothing to do with effectiveness in combat. US .50cal was superior to Japanese 20mm, 7.6mm, and 12.5mm ordnance, for a variety of reasons. Generally they were better because of the greater cyclical rof and much greater velocity.

I think you're hanging a lot of hopes on a rumour of P-39s having trouble on one day shooting down one H8K. In the real world, in the waters of the South Pacific, USN fighters operating in singles and pairs had no difficulty shooting them down.

The idea that a bunch of H8Ks would form up and conduct an effective strategic bombing raid is objectively silly. They would never have survived any amount of air defense, and they were inherently less accurate for that role than any of the planes that actually attempted strategic bombing.

As I noted, if you want to know how they'd do in the role, think "Schweinfurt," triple the casualty rates among the bombers, and divide the "bombs striking with 1 km of target" by four, and you'll get it about right.


< Message edited by mdiehl -- 4/10/2012 10:00:21 PM >


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Post #: 104
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 10:00:55 PM   
Gräfin Zeppelin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar



Hey! You sold those to us! (not meaning speed cams)

http://www.kmweg.de/de/



Hmmm I had to follow that link and to click "einkauf" (buy) To bad I couldnt order a fully operational tank via paypal :(

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Post #: 105
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 10:09:00 PM   
Sardaukar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar



Hey! You sold those to us! (not meaning speed cams)

http://www.kmweg.de/de/



Hmmm I had to follow that link and to click "einkauf" (buy) To bad I couldnt order a fully operational tank via paypal :(


Well...I hate tanks, being "poor bloody infantry". They call us "squishies". Hopefully gonna get nice ride with Merkavas with an Israeli buddy tanker tho.

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Post #: 106
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 10:17:43 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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quote:

even the Short Sunderland, after which the H8K was allegedly engineered, was a much tougher mule.


No.. sunderland was slow (small engines) and was nowhere as good
as as the H8K, but it was probably close in durability

Think you are confused with the H6K Mavis ,which was regularly shot down by allied B-17 patrols

Look at the schematics of the H8K and you will understand the wing tanks were a tiny component of the fuel load

The only thing wrong with the H8K was it was produced in really small numbers

Still it could have been improved - the H8K3 added retractable floats to increase speed to 305mph, and the fuel load could have been reduced to increase ordnance and even more armor (32 hexes really is beyond what the Zero could escort)

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Post #: 107
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 10:22:45 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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quote:

In that role, the PBY was likewise a lousy platform for delivering *anti-shipping* torpedoes,


Catalina was originally designed as an anti-shipping craft..
it was called PBY - Patrol-Bmbr-Consolidated

it was hoped in the early 1930s that it could be deployed from atolls and small beaches, fitted with torpedoes and used against enemy warships (just like what I suggest)

it was decided it was too slow to survive AA fire,
and USN torpedoes didn't really work anyway

and USN did understand the value of a high performance flying boat - in fact during the cold war, seaplane tenders were part of the USN nuclear arsenal with jet powered flying boats

(hard to nuke a seaplane tender in the middle of nowhere during a surprise first strike.. but the same could be achieved with submarines)



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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 10:24:28 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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one more interesting note - the original IJN idea was to use Mavis / Emily to launch Type 93 long lances from far away to avoid flak altogether..

.. maybe include it as a PGM in some type of mod

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Post #: 109
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 10:43:02 PM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

Catalina was originally designed as an anti-shipping craft..


And it was originally armed with bombs. As an anti-shipping a.c. it had very little success, save in the role of ASW. For technical reasons, the PBY and PB4Y and the Coronado were all much better at ASW than the H8K. Both because of vastly superior radar on the allied a.c. and because in the late war their ASW included acoustic homing torpedoes.

quote:

it was hoped in the early 1930s that it could be deployed from atolls and small beaches, fitted with torpedoes and used against enemy warships (just like what I suggest)


Yeah, well, there was the idea and then there was the reality. In reality, it would not have been very good in that role.

quote:

it was decided it was too slow to survive AA fire,
and USN torpedoes didn't really work anyway


An H8K wouldn't survive AA fire either. Anything on the deck within 1000 yards of an allied combat ship was at serious risk of being flamed.

quote:

and USN did understand the value of a high performance flying boat - in fact during the cold war, seaplane tenders were part of the USN nuclear arsenal with jet powered flying boats


Recon recon. And ASW if your ac has a really good look down radar (which the Imperial Japanese never developed), and an acoustic torpedo (which the Imperial Japanese never developed).

quote:

(hard to nuke a seaplane tender in the middle of nowhere during a surprise first strike.. but the same could be achieved with submarines)


The USN nuked seaplane tenders in the middle of nowhere many times from 1942-1945. Well, "nuke" meaning sunk rather than the bright white light and all that.

quote:

one more interesting note - the original IJN idea was to use Mavis / Emily to launch Type 93 long lances from far away to avoid flak altogether..


That would have left the ground crews scratching their heads trying to figure out how to mount a torp for which the Emily had no hard points or attachments.

Here's the thing about the Type 93 Long Lance torpedo. In operational use it's MEDIAN hit rate per engagement was ZERO HITS. In operational use it's MODAL hit rate was ZERO HITS. In operational use, when fired in large volleys, it's MEAN hit rate was 6.3% hits -- meaning that if you fired SIXTEEN of them you could expect to hit with ONE.

Mounting a long lance on an H8K was about as doable and would make about as much sense as mounting a 57mm antitank gun on the undercarriage of a Brewster Buffalo.

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Post #: 110
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 10:52:11 PM   
Gräfin Zeppelin


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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 10:52:57 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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1) early 1930s USN air faction wanted to use PBY as a torpedo plane - the idea wasn't developed because battleships had most of the budget, carriers were second, USN land based aviation was a distant third

2) Flammable betties and nell did okay against flak during POW/Repulse - suffered mainly against CAP during solomons

H8K would do a lot better

3) Yes aerial long-lance would be inaccurate, and they are so heavy you could only strike from really short range, and you would need many of them to score any hits (the main reasons why the doctrine was not implemented after the initial testing)

- this is to prove that the concept of 4-engined torpedo carrying flying boats was present in both the IJN and USN, but yamamoto thought you could use 2-engined land based planes without armor and that would be sufficient (it proved to be false)

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Post #: 112
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 10:54:17 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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Graff Zeppelin - that is perhaps the single best post ever..

i may use it as my signature ..hehe

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Post #: 113
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 10:59:57 PM   
Gräfin Zeppelin


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Ah got another one ^^



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Post #: 114
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 11:01:43 PM   
Empire101


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+1



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Post #: 115
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 11:05:46 PM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

1) early 1930s USN air faction wanted to use PBY as a torpedo plane - the idea wasn't developed because battleships had most of the budget, carriers were second, USN land based aviation was a distant third


The idea *was* developed. PBY drivers were trained in torpedo attacks and PBYs had systems for launching them. PBYs just weren't very useful in that role. The whole idea of the "Patrol Bomber as torpedo plane" was to harrass enemy merchies at the edge of their air cover. For use against something like Kormoran they might have served well.

quote:

2) Flammable betties and nell did okay against flak during POW/Repulse - suffered mainly against CAP during solomons


Suffered against *everything* in the Solomons. SoDak shot down something like six of em in one attack. Against ships with lousy AAA armament the Benellis ;) were decent enough. Against ships with dp 5"/38s and quad 40s, not so much. An H8K anywhere near a USN ship after August 1942 other than in the dead of night would have been in far more jeopardy than its erstwhile target.

quote:

H8K would do a lot better


It'd DIE alot better would be a more accurate statement.

quote:

3) Yes aerial long-lance would be inaccurate, and they are so heavy you could only strike from really short range, and you would need many of them to score any hits (the main reasons why the doctrine was not implemented after the initial testing)


It's not a matter of range. It's a matter of "The dratted thing won't fit where we need to hang it and the wings won't take the weight." The H8Ks wing mounts accommodated the same torp used by the Kate, not the Type 93. Hang a type 93 on there and you get a patrol bomber with a greater wing loading than a B-24, the accuracy of a Carnival Game ping pong gun, the speed of a draft horse, and the durability of a plywood barge.

quote:

- this is to prove that the concept of 4-engined torpedo carrying flying boats was present in both the IJN and USN, but yamamoto thought you could use 2-engined land based planes without armor and that would be sufficient (it proved to be false)


It doesn't "prove the concept" unless you toss the H8K into the dustbin and engineer a completely different aircraft.

Merely hanging four engines on a boat doesn't make it a strike aircraft. It makes it a FLYING BOAT and nothing more.

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 4/10/2012 11:06:00 PM >


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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 11:10:03 PM   
Historiker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I see Iron Sky is doing well.

Lets see what else we Finns can foist on you...

The world would be a boring place with out you Finnish maniacs




Hey! You sold those to us! (not meaning speed cams)

http://www.kmweg.de/de/



I know...

I was in the army back then. We were still a reinforces recon bataillon. Not only mountain recon, but also an air drop recon group and heavy tanks - the Leopard 2A4. We alsways joked: "The only thing we aren't capable of is an amphib invasion".
Unfortunately, our Leo 2s were mostly in storage and only a fraction was used.

Then, some day, a few officers in a strange uniform came by. Two Leopards were taken out on the parade ground. They showed all they got, and all that was possible without shooting their guns. We enjoyed it very much.

It wasn't until later when we were told that those strange officers were finns and our beloved Leopards were presented to them to be taken away from us!



< Message edited by Historiker -- 4/10/2012 11:25:08 PM >


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Post #: 117
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 11:15:02 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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quote:

It makes it a FLYING BOAT and nothing more.


The fastest flying boat in the world,

and the Macchi MC72 was the faster plane in the world.. and it had floats too

putting seaplane capability reduces performance by 20%.. nothing more

large engines can compensate

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(in reply to mdiehl)
Post #: 118
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 11:15:30 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25309
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
well it was an interesting thread.....until our two Trolls took it over. MeThinks its time for it to be dumped over to the War Room and/or locked.

reported so as it can be put out of it's misery. (Do like the Finish roadblock however. )

(in reply to Historiker)
Post #: 119
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 11:32:49 PM   
Empire101


Posts: 1957
Joined: 5/20/2008
From: Coruscant
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker
I know...

I was in the army back then. We were still a reinforces recon bataillon. Not only mountain recon, but also an air drop recon group and heavy tanks - the Leopard 2A4. Unfortunately, they were mostly in storage and only a fraction was used.

Then, some day, a few officers in a strange uniform came by. Two Leopards were taken out on the parade ground. They showed all they got, and all that was possible without shooting their guns. We enjoyed it very much.

It wasn't until later when we were told that those strange officers were finns and our beloved Leopards were presented to them to be taken away from us!



I have fond memories of the Leopard when I served in Germany ( Detmold ) on Chieftain in the 1980's.

I always remember one swelteringly hot summer day on exercise, our tank commander decided our tracks were loose and a link had to be removed.
This involved a process that had'nt really changed since WWII, ie using ropes, pulleys and sledgehammers to knock the pin out and pull the outside links together with the ropes and pulley, and bash in a new pin.

Sweating like fury, covered in dust and dirt, we bashed away at the pin that was so worn it would'nt budge,
while the rest of our squadron roared by, blinding us in a choking dust cloud, and throwing stale cheese possessed sandwiches at us.

Shortly afterwards, a few Leopards came by, and the crews waved at us.
They all stopped and one directly in front of us began to 'waggle' left and right as the Driver kept pulling first the right stick and then the next.

'Ginge' Howie ( Loader/Radio Ops) asked our commander what was the Leopard doing?

'Tightening his tracks', was the tongue in cheek reply. We all stared in amazement and wonder....cursing the antiquated design of the Chieftain.

The German crews wanted to trade their marvellous combat shirts for our horrible scratchy KF shirts. They must have been mad because the KF was like a hair shirt!! So we obliged them and we got their fantastic shirts instead..........Good days Kameraden!!


_____________________________

Our lives may be more boring than those who lived in apocalyptic times,
but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy.
- Michael Burleigh


(in reply to Historiker)
Post #: 120
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