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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 11:52:44 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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quote:

Does anyone have any thoughts about whether Yamamoto would have approved of kamikaze tactics?


Pearl Harbor was originally intended as a 1-way trip, the crews would ditch and be picked up by submarines

Apparently he was opposed to pure kamikaze type operations, but that may have changed by 1944


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Post #: 61
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 11:56:27 PM   
Terminus


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Wow, even for you, that first sentence is idiotic. Maybe you should go play Pokémon; that would be more suited to your intellectual level.

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Post #: 62
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 12:02:37 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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quote:

All the large CV's were built on the East Coast.


Yep the big CV would be difficult - some ideas

1) either need to use Sen-Toku launched planes carrying an 800kg each (maybe 1-way trip to increase chance of surprise, and detachable floats to increase speed (Seiran with floats was 295 mph, without floats 360mph) - probably need a float-fighter version of the seiran to escort them

2) Apply full pressure to the RN, take Colombo and then to Madagascar and South africa, then use the seaplane tenders and carriers in the atlantic

3) use submarines to refuel the Emilies (might be possible to launch on a 1-way from the pacific on seaplane tenders, fly across canada to east coast, perform the raid, then refuel at submarines in atlantic, then fly to france) but this way there is no way to escort the emilies (so it really would be like schweinfurt/ploiesti)

option #2 was a big concern for the allies after the IJN indian ocean raid. if the 6 USN carriers were sunk, it would be plausible

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Post #: 63
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 12:06:11 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/pearl-harbor-the-attack/

Originally, Yamamoto had considered launching the Pearl Harbor strike as a one-way mission from a range of 500 miles, but his staff convinced him that the sacrifice of so many irreplaceable pilots and aircraft was unnecessary to achieve surprise

Please don't call me names

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Post #: 64
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 12:37:38 AM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FDRLincoln

A few points.

1) Yamamoto wasn't stupid. He knew he could not win the war if the Americans maintained their morale. He told several people this even before Pearl Harbor.
2) He may or may not have been able to pull something off that could have delayed things by a few months.
3) I think the really interesting question is if he would have gone along with the whole kamikaze concept or not. IIRC, he thought that captains should NOT go down with their ships and was unhappy that Yamaguchi chose to die aboard Hiryu rather than surviving to serve the Empire in other battles.
4) If he survived the war, he would probably have been tried for war crimes even though he was actually one of the more 'humane' Japanese commanders.




IMO, based on my readings on him....he would not have approved of the Kamakaze aspect and would have called it "Orokana" (stupid) and wouldn't have been afraid to say so. He always mocked the firebrands and hated ideas that wasted men's lives if it served no purpose.

Interesting speculation on war crimes charges. My instinct is to say no, but then again they did try to convict Donetz on this. I don't think Nimitz would have supported it anymore than he did the charges against the CiC of the German navy. Yamamoto wasn't responsible for Japanese foreign policy and did not control the Army. He had argued against war with the US but when ordered to do so he went about the best way he thought possible. Putting him on trial for that would have undermined the whole process.

< Message edited by Nikademus -- 4/10/2012 12:41:36 AM >

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Post #: 65
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 12:45:04 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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mad tactics were a force multiplier, and it would have been smart to encourage them right from the start

Ramming by Chitose F1M2 Pete
On October 3, 1942 departs Shortland as part of a "Tokyo Express" run to Guadalcanal with destroyers Nowaki, Maikaze and Akitsuki plus Nisshin. On October 4, 1942, in the vicinity of New Georgia they spotted by five B-17 Flying Fortresses unexpectedly encountered these warships and attempted to bomb them at 3:40pm. Intercepted by floatplanes flying combat air patrol over the fleet, the B-17s claimed two Zeros shot down.

During the combat, B-17E 41-9118 was deliberately rammed from below by Chitose F1M2 Pete piloted by PO Katsuki Kiyomi, to prevent it from bombing Nisshin. During the ramming, the B-17's right wing was torn off and damage caused to the vertical stabilizer, causing it to crash. The ramming damaged the Pete's right wing, but both Katsuki and his observer successfully bail out and were rescued by destroyer Akitsuki. For this attack, Kiyomi earned a commendation and gold chevron.


trading a Pete for a B-17 and bailing out safely.. that is impressive
(just like the D4Y that sneaked past Franklin's CAP and almost sank it)

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Post #: 66
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 1:11:24 AM   
FDRLincoln


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Well, personally I don't think Yamamoto SHOULD have been charged...but some people got executed who probably shouldn't have (Yamashita, Homma) and some people were left alone who should have been prosecuted (members of the Imperial family). Given the hatred of Yamamoto in the US at the time, I think there would have been strong pressure to charge him.

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Post #: 67
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 3:25:32 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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Yamamoto also lost a pile of opportunities to sink some allied carriers with LBA

(in the early months when USN CVs raided the Marshals and Rabaul)

could have been sunk by LBA torpedoes


... lexington is out there in the open and they send 9 unescorted betties

the entire perimeter should have been garrisoned with Reisens, LBA torpedo planes, and search

japan couldn't trade carrier for carrier.. but 30 betties per carrier would have been perfect

< Message edited by Commander Stormwolf -- 4/10/2012 3:29:14 AM >


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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 3:30:11 AM   
Gräfin Zeppelin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf


Yamamoto also lost a pile of opportunities to sink some allied carriers with LBA

(in the early months when USN CVs raided the Marshals and Rabaul)

could have been sunk by LBA torpedoes

The Americanz can be sooo happy you werent in command of Japan back then. Has Yamamoto ever realized how easy it all could have been ? *snickers*

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Post #: 69
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 3:33:35 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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Prince of Wales and Repulse sank in Dec 1941, and the rules of naval war were changed, and clearly defined

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Post #: 70
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 3:39:53 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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Another example: Rabaul was full of betties during the battle of coral sea

where were they? striking at port moresby....

IJA could have suppressed Port Moresby.. Betties should be on standby at Rabaul in case enemy ships arrive

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Post #: 71
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 3:41:32 AM   
Gräfin Zeppelin


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Sure and meanwhile we Germans pretend to be pacifists while secretly abducting people from farms at night(for the lulz) and rule the earth from our hidden moonbase.



< Message edited by Gräfin Zeppelin -- 4/10/2012 3:43:50 AM >


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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 9:43:14 AM   
Sardaukar


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I think I just died a bit inside..."mad tactics are force multiplier"....

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Post #: 73
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 10:43:36 AM   
Historiker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf


Yamamoto also lost a pile of opportunities to sink some allied carriers with LBA

(in the early months when USN CVs raided the Marshals and Rabaul)

could have been sunk by LBA torpedoes

The Americanz can be sooo happy you werent in command of Japan back then. Has Yamamoto ever realized how easy it all could have been ? *snickers*



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Post #: 74
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 10:44:32 AM   
Historiker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

Sure and meanwhile we Germans pretend to be pacifists while secretly abducting people from farms at night(for the lulz) and rule the earth from our hidden moonbase.



Did you traitor really reveal our secrets here?

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Post #: 75
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 10:57:25 AM   
Gräfin Zeppelin


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I am tired of pretending not beliving nordic race > everyone else(by default).Just for the case somebody thinks this is a joke, here is a picture of our moonbase.



Now yer scared eh ?

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Post #: 76
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 1:04:57 PM   
Sardaukar


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I see Iron Sky is doing well.

Lets see what else we Finns can foist on you...

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 4/10/2012 1:05:52 PM >


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Post #: 77
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 1:10:33 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf


would have been smarter to load H8K emilies onto kamikawa maru cargo ships..
...launch from 15 hexes away at pearl harbor and sink the CVs in port









for some reason you manage to spam every thread with this BS. Can't you leave this forum to spam one of the fantasy game forum's. Your posts are nothing but annoying, no wonder you may be the number one of ppl's ignore list.

I know, don't feed the trolls.

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Post #: 78
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 1:12:10 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf


remember any number of CV and BB can be sunk by LBA torpedoes if you have enough of them, and good escorts

Battle of Marianas would be different if you have 1000xA6M3a and 1000xH8K2 coming at the carriers



yeah, 1000 H8K2. How silly can one become?

don't feed the trolls, put a boot into their arse... silly command and conquer kiddy.

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Post #: 79
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 1:19:57 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

winning the war for japan meant signing an agreement (like they did after tsushima)

to do this... they had to inflict massive losses against the allies

1) sink their carriers preventing a counter-offensive

2) sink their submaries to keep their supply lines in tact

3) destroy allied airpower with an effective air defence system


could this have been done? NO.

to sink the carriers... either while under construction or with LBA torpedo planes

to sink the submarines... hitting manila on Dec 7 would have helped (27 down.. 300 to go ).. probably need 500 emilies with radars patrolling the SRA at all times to keep the submarines at bay

to destroy the airpower.. japan has less AC production so they would need to figure out
some type of fighter designs that could compete with the USAAF, preserve their pilot quality by fighting on defensive terrain, develop a way to shoot down 4E streams, and build their own 4E streams

also remeber that USAAF fighters were ferried on their way to australia so submarines would have been pretty effective if they were used against those merchant ships
(especially big submarines launching torpedo carrying Seirans)



"Sink American Carriers while under construction" Perfect exmple of a "Stormwolf Fantasy". Virtually the only carriers built on the West Coast were Kaiser's 50 Jeep Carriers. All the large CV's were built on the East Coast. I suppose his next notion would be "B-52 seaplanes" to reach the Atlantic. This is what I mean by "a-historic nonsense".




he has no clue about history or real life possibilities. He's nothing more than the most annoying spamming idiot troll on the forum for the last 5 years. NONE of the trolls was ever so annoying than this guy because he spams every thread with his fantasy screenshots en masse.

The troll is acting against forum rules as he spams all those threads with off topic bullshit, he should be banned.

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Post #: 80
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 1:32:58 PM   
Historiker


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quote:

The troll is acting against forum rules as he spams all those threads with off topic bullshit, he should be banned.

Amen to that!

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Post #: 81
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 1:46:12 PM   
USS America


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

quote:

All the large CV's were built on the East Coast.


Yep the big CV would be difficult - some ideas

1) either need to use Sen-Toku launched planes carrying an 800kg each (maybe 1-way trip to increase chance of surprise, and detachable floats to increase speed (Seiran with floats was 295 mph, without floats 360mph) - probably need a float-fighter version of the seiran to escort them

2) Apply full pressure to the RN, take Colombo and then to Madagascar and South africa, then use the seaplane tenders and carriers in the atlantic

3) use submarines to refuel the Emilies (might be possible to launch on a 1-way from the pacific on seaplane tenders, fly across canada to east coast, perform the raid, then refuel at submarines in atlantic, then fly to france) but this way there is no way to escort the emilies (so it really would be like schweinfurt/ploiesti)

option #2 was a big concern for the allies after the IJN indian ocean raid. if the 6 USN carriers were sunk, it would be plausible


This is pathetic, even for you.

Enough.

Bye bye.

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Post #: 82
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 1:59:24 PM   
Sardaukar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

winning the war for japan meant signing an agreement (like they did after tsushima)

to do this... they had to inflict massive losses against the allies

1) sink their carriers preventing a counter-offensive

2) sink their submaries to keep their supply lines in tact

3) destroy allied airpower with an effective air defence system


could this have been done? NO.

to sink the carriers... either while under construction or with LBA torpedo planes

to sink the submarines... hitting manila on Dec 7 would have helped (27 down.. 300 to go ).. probably need 500 emilies with radars patrolling the SRA at all times to keep the submarines at bay

to destroy the airpower.. japan has less AC production so they would need to figure out
some type of fighter designs that could compete with the USAAF, preserve their pilot quality by fighting on defensive terrain, develop a way to shoot down 4E streams, and build their own 4E streams

also remeber that USAAF fighters were ferried on their way to australia so submarines would have been pretty effective if they were used against those merchant ships
(especially big submarines launching torpedo carrying Seirans)



"Sink American Carriers while under construction" Perfect exmple of a "Stormwolf Fantasy". Virtually the only carriers built on the West Coast were Kaiser's 50 Jeep Carriers. All the large CV's were built on the East Coast. I suppose his next notion would be "B-52 seaplanes" to reach the Atlantic. This is what I mean by "a-historic nonsense".




he has no clue about history or real life possibilities. He's nothing more than the most annoying spamming idiot troll on the forum for the last 5 years. NONE of the trolls was ever so annoying than this guy because he spams every thread with his fantasy screenshots en masse.

The troll is acting against forum rules as he spams all those threads with off topic bullshit, he should be banned.


Green ball, castor...green ball!


_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


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Post #: 83
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 2:16:31 PM   
Puhis

 

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Green button is not going to help if people keep quoting him! Same with all those trolls, always someone quotes them...

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Post #: 84
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 2:37:29 PM   
Sardaukar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Green button is not going to help if people keep quoting him! Same with all those trolls, always someone quotes them...


But at least it is more amiable for eyes. And they are predictable.

I have only "greenballed" Japan and marky...latter more because his posts were eyesore. "Der Kommander" is not even close that that yet. May that hound him in his sleep.


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Post #: 85
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 3:35:49 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Green button is not going to help if people keep quoting him! Same with all those trolls, always someone quotes them...


STORMWOLF is not mean with his posts..., he's just childish, silly, and totally ignorant. I'd be suprised if he's more than 17 years old, and has read just enough popular history to make himself sound foolish to anyone with a real education in the subject. My vote would be to educate the poor schmuck in reality whenever possible. Make him feel so dumb that the takes a few months off and reads some serious reference works and historical research. He's certainly enthusiastic..., just needs some guidence.

< Message edited by mike scholl 1 -- 4/10/2012 3:36:17 PM >

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Post #: 86
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 4:18:39 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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The history has changed in the past 40 - 50 years

when I learned it there were a few basic conclusions everyone knew

1) H8K Emily was underproduced and not used correctly, it was the only japanese
Bmr the allies that was tough to shoot down

2) The IJA and IJAAF fighters were inferior to those in europe because they
carried too much fuel, and couldn't deal with the allied Bmr formations

3) Japanese failed to use their land-based airpower effectively in the carrier
battles, sinking prince of wales and repluse was the perfect use of airpower

4) Japanese air power was grinded down in 1943 so it was too weak to contest
the landings in the marianas


as with any history.. it is revised each year and grows a demon head

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Post #: 87
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 4:35:56 PM   
ilovestrategy


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Ok, we know you love theH8K Emilies. Man, you put the Bismark fanboys to shame.

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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 5:20:11 PM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

Yamamoto also lost a pile of opportunities to sink some allied carriers with LBA


No, not really. I think it's easy to forget how big the Pacific was, and how poorly early war US and Japanese logistics were at the margin of their control spheres. A bunch of betties going up unescorted against a CV, for example, were food for allied guns. Agains Prince of Wales and Repulse -- sure why not? But against a US CV cap, you're looking at zero hits and 90% casualties (for ex the early Rabaul Raid produced pretty much exactly that result).

So while your imaginative ways of rethinking brief offensives are interesting, you must understand that in some ways the reality that you imagine does not neatly map onto the reality as it actually WAS from 1941 through 1945.



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Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 89
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/10/2012 5:24:03 PM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

1) H8K Emily was underproduced and not used correctly, it was the only japanese
Bmr the allies that was tough to shoot down


"Tough" is a relative term. Emilies were routinely shot down in the various CV battles around the Solomons, usually with no loss to the CAPs sent to interdict snoopers. They weren't remotely as tough as, for example, a B-17.

Massing a bunch of Emilies doesn't get you a bulletproof porcupine. It gets you a massed formation of a.c. that are each far less accurate and carry less paylod than a B-17, and that are far more vulnerable to battle damage.

So if you want a REALISTIC idea of what would have happened to a large formation of Emilies used as strategic bombers on the US west coast, think "Small formation of unescorted B-17s bombing a target deep in the Reich" and then triple the casualty rate and apply 1/4 the bombing effects and you're in the reality ballpark.

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Didn't we have this conversation already?

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