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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 4:01:20 PM   
Gräfin Zeppelin


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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 4:47:44 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

would have been smarter to load H8K emilies onto kamikawa maru cargo ships..
...launch from 15 hexes away at pearl harbor and sink the CVs in port




The historical Japanese weren't playing with PDU "on" and unlimited hindsight. There weren't 95 "Emily's" in all of Japan in June of 1942.

Who cares? He takes every chance to promote his fantasy...


I don't object to fantasy. Lots of things COULD have been done differently, or turned out differently. I only object to AHISTORICAL fantasy. Things which couldn't have occured in the real world no matter what. What's the fun or accomplishment in playing Yamamoto if you give yourself all kinds of weapons and benefits he could never have had?

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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 4:54:13 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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Not ahistorical... there was a plan to make a fleet of large seaplane tenders that carried 4xH8K flying boats each

it was scaled down to just the small akitsushima that carried just 1xH8K


this is why they wanted those flying boat tenders.. some had the idea to sink the USN while it was under construction






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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 5:00:18 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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Status: offline 		http://www.enotes.com/topic/Japanese_seaplane_tender_Akitsushima




*plans for 10,000 ton class did not pass the assessment by the minstry of finance*

*part of Maru 4 ship construction program*

< Message edited by Commander Stormwolf -- 4/9/2012 5:01:41 PM >

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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 5:05:06 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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here are the specifications.. if only the IJN had 100% of the war budget (and IJA got nothing )






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Post #: 35
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 5:13:43 PM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

Up to that point, Japanese air power had proven to usually be superior to the Americans


Actually, it had not. Japanese air power had proven to be superior against isolated aircraft at the end of a logistical rope. Against well maintained and supplied a.c., including all US CV-based F4Fs, and USAAF units around Moresby, they had prover to be somewhat inferior.

The Japanese, however, were inclined to THINK that they were superior, and that is probably why the attritional air war in the SoPac "seemed like a good idea at the time."

Yamamoto's survival or not *might* have saved the IJN from some fairly embaressing subsequent underestimates of USN strike capability, as in the case of the Truk raids, and he might have had enough political clout to prevent IJN Yamato's suicide run.

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Post #: 36
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 5:15:53 PM   
ilovestrategy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf



Not ahistorical... there was a plan to make a fleet of large seaplane tenders that carried 4xH8K flying boats each

it was scaled down to just the small akitsushima that carried just 1xH8K


this is why they wanted those flying boat tenders.. some had the idea to sink the USN while it was under construction





That is outside the realm of possibility. At the very most they could have conducted a raid. Japan never had the resources to keep a maintained bombing run, especially on the West Coast. This was not a public half asleep. This was a country waken up by Pearl Harbor. Even if Japan made a ton of seaplane tenders there is no way in hell that US production could be affected.


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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 5:24:09 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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probably wouldn't have worked.. but they could have tried

basically it would be a raid - could take out some ships under construction and maybe the B-17 factories

you would need the IJN carriers to protect the seaplane tenders at all times

the good news is you could ferry in Emilies to replace losses..

.. bad news is Emilies are expensive to build and it would mean cancelling all the army planes

also it would be tough to build a large number of such seaplane tenders -

easier to convert Kamikawa maru type ships , they would be slow and vulnerable,
but you could scrape together 20 or 30 of these ships,
allowing about 100 emilies to come over at a time

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Post #: 38
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 5:39:39 PM   
ilovestrategy


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Status: offline 		There is no probably about it. 100% for sure it would not have worked. I cannot imagine the West Coast in 1942 being so soft that some ships and a B 17 factory could have been destroyed.


For starters, there is no way that those tenders could get to the West Coast without being detected. After Pearl Harbor the chances were nil of another surprise Japanese attack.

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Post #: 39
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 5:41:53 PM   
Historiker


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*MUST ENFORCE MY FANTASY*




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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 5:55:56 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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some imagery






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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 5:58:10 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 6:00:51 PM   
mdiehl

 

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Status: offline 		The Japanese could try it. It would be like the Second Schweinfurt Raid, minus the part where any of the bombers release their ordnance within 10 miles of the target, and minus the part where any of the bomber crews survive the mission.

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Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

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Post #: 43
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 6:01:02 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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Seiku means clear sky..




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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 6:03:56 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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KHSO ..sentoki desu




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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 6:18:22 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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Status: offline 		the number 4 plane lost a float, but its P-40 attacker is a ball of flame

allied pilots found it daunting to tackle a formation of "flying porcupines"

the P-40's wingman to the left is trailing smoke and has disengaged




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< Message edited by Commander Stormwolf -- 4/9/2012 6:27:09 PM >

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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 7:18:42 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

Not ahistorical... there was a plan to make a fleet of large seaplane tenders that carried 4xH8K flying boats each

it was scaled down to just the small akitsushima that carried just 1xH8K

this is why they wanted those flying boat tenders.. some had the idea to sink the USN while it was under construction



It was "scaled down" by economic and industrial realities. MacArthur had a "plan" to defend the Philippines..., the IJA had a "plan" to conquer China in three years..., Yamamoto had a "plan" to win the Battle of Midway. Reality has a way of being unkind to "plans"..., especially the "pie-in-the-sky" variety. And Japan building a fleet of 25 single-purpose H8K seaplane carriers when they couldn't build enough tankers or frieghters to meet their own domestic needs is definately "pie-in-the-sky".

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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 7:51:37 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Had Yamamoto not been killed in 1943, would of been the possibilites on the outcome of the war?


No different IMO. By 43 the die had been cast. No leader, no matter how brilliant, could alter the course of an industrialized war of attrition. Yamamoto's successors more or less carried on not all that differently than he did. SHO-1 for example was a typical example of a highly complex plan with dispersed forces. In this case however it almost succeeded, but even had it, the course of the war would not have been changed due to the timing.

One might surmise a good C/O might extend things (or shorten things) by a few months. Yamamoto himself saw zero chance of success against the US if a war lasted longer than a year. He was proven correct. I find the man more and more interesting as I read about him. He's an easy mark due to the debacle at Midway, despite all the recent literature. I'm more interested in his actions after Midway and have yet to find a satisfactory answer to questions I have.

Then again....judging leaders is the hardest thing of all to do because of hindsight and cultural issues. As such i've scaled back from the harsher judgements of Professor Dull when it comes to "The Reluctant Admiral". Shattered Sword paints him in a very unfavorable light.....but Symonds' recent book on Midway is more sympathetic. Its kind of like MacArthur.....depending on the book you read he comes off as either a bafoon, a brilliant strategist, or a opportunist. Take your pic.

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Post #: 48
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 8:17:47 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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the small nation can defeat a big one by arranding a series of
one-sided battles on friendly terrain (tsushima)

if you expect to lose..you will find a way to make it happen

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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 8:27:12 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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Status: offline 		winning the war for japan meant signing an agreement (like they did after tsushima)

to do this... they had to inflict massive losses against the allies

1) sink their carriers preventing a counter-offensive

2) sink their submaries to keep their supply lines in tact

3) destroy allied airpower with an effective air defence system


could this have been done?

to sink the carriers... either while under construction or with LBA torpedo planes

to sink the submarines... hitting manila on Dec 7 would have helped (27 down.. 300 to go ).. probably need 500 emilies with radars patrolling the SRA at all times to keep the submarines at bay

to destroy the airpower.. japan has less AC production so they would need to figure out
some type of fighter designs that could compete with the USAAF, preserve their pilot quality by fighting on defensive terrain, develop a way to shoot down 4E streams, and build their own 4E streams

also remeber that USAAF fighters were ferried on their way to australia so submarines would have been pretty effective if they were used against those merchant ships
(especially big submarines launching torpedo carrying Seirans)




< Message edited by Commander Stormwolf -- 4/9/2012 8:28:07 PM >

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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 8:35:37 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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also .. many believe the war was lost at midway and the other battles

the majority of air losses suffered were above rabaul and over new guinea..

.. quite sad.. those Reisens and Hayabusas packed full of fuel with no armor, charging streams of Liberators and being turned into fireballs.. thousands of times over..

or Hiens crashing into the sea in transit from truk to rabaul (engine failiure)

fundamentally what ruined japan was the ratio of exchange between fighter aircraft

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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 8:43:07 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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These fantasy posts would be better served in the mod forum. Always a legimate post is turned into fantasyland with you. I acknowledge your passion about what you believe would have made a better Japanese war machine and your skill in modding, but regardless, it remains pure speculation and fantasy and really has no place being in this discussion. You're almost reaching troll status in my opinion with these kind of posts.

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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 9:10:25 PM   
LoBaron


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Status: offline 		Ah, only because people honestly react to his posts. Commander Stormwolf is a standard troll, sometimes hes funny but mostly boring, and
he keeps repeating the same BS like a bot. So he is not even creative and every thread he participates looks more like a CS chatlog than
a forum, which in turn I find rather funny because it looks so strange when you got him the green buttoned.

As for Yamamoto´s survival I go with Nik´s assessment. He couldn´t have changed much, even had he been able to see what was coming.
The Japanese problem was always decisions hampered by conflicts in military structure and a rural society, paired with lack of industrial footing to keep
even remotely on eye level with the allies.

Too much for a single man, mighty as he was.



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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 9:12:29 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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Togo was mightier.

Win a battle, sign a deal, expand the empire

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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 9:54:00 PM   
FDRLincoln


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Status: offline 		A few points.

1) Yamamoto wasn't stupid. He knew he could not win the war if the Americans maintained their morale. He told several people this even before Pearl Harbor.
2) He may or may not have been able to pull something off that could have delayed things by a few months.
3) I think the really interesting question is if he would have gone along with the whole kamikaze concept or not. IIRC, he thought that captains should NOT go down with their ships and was unhappy that Yamaguchi chose to die aboard Hiryu rather than surviving to serve the Empire in other battles.
4) If he survived the war, he would probably have been tried for war crimes even though he was actually one of the more 'humane' Japanese commanders.



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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 10:01:09 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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quote:

He knew he could not win the war


and he made everyone else around him believe it too...

"okay team. we are fighting for our lives here.. and there is no way we can win..
so let's just drink sake aboard hotel yamato for a couple years"

zapped the morale out of the IJN.. messed up the battles with poor planning..soured relations with the IJA

Togo says

"let them come.. they are big and fat (the russians) but they are stupid ..
if each man does his best, japan will win - their fleet will be trapped and destroyed"

the second way is better

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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 10:05:15 PM   
FDRLincoln


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Status: offline 		A true patriot has a realistic sense of what his country can and cannot do. Whatever else Yamamoto may have been, he was a patriot for his country.

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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 10:31:35 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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reminds me of one of my old WITP opponents (read AAR Bore In the Pacific: Allies fight back (sort of) )

he was IJN putting his carriers in the most ridiculous places..launched a parachute landing at Hilo (hawaii), took most of the south pacific including PM, caldedonia, etc..

i sank his carriers, battleships, gutted his air force.. didn't lose anything bigger than a cruiser
and landed in northern japan by mid 1942

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RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 11:33:23 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

winning the war for japan meant signing an agreement (like they did after tsushima)

to do this... they had to inflict massive losses against the allies

1) sink their carriers preventing a counter-offensive

2) sink their submaries to keep their supply lines in tact

3) destroy allied airpower with an effective air defence system


could this have been done? NO.

to sink the carriers... either while under construction or with LBA torpedo planes

to sink the submarines... hitting manila on Dec 7 would have helped (27 down.. 300 to go ).. probably need 500 emilies with radars patrolling the SRA at all times to keep the submarines at bay

to destroy the airpower.. japan has less AC production so they would need to figure out
some type of fighter designs that could compete with the USAAF, preserve their pilot quality by fighting on defensive terrain, develop a way to shoot down 4E streams, and build their own 4E streams

also remeber that USAAF fighters were ferried on their way to australia so submarines would have been pretty effective if they were used against those merchant ships
(especially big submarines launching torpedo carrying Seirans)



"Sink American Carriers while under construction" Perfect exmple of a "Stormwolf Fantasy". Virtually the only carriers built on the West Coast were Kaiser's 50 Jeep Carriers. All the large CV's were built on the East Coast. I suppose his next notion would be "B-52 seaplanes" to reach the Atlantic. This is what I mean by "a-historic nonsense".

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Post #: 59
RE: Yamamoto... - 4/9/2012 11:44:25 PM   
FDRLincoln


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From: Lawrence, KS
Status: offline 		Does anyone have any thoughts about whether Yamamoto would have approved of kamikaze tactics?

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