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War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

 
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War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/9/2012 12:17:12 AM   
Canoerebel


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Panzerjagger Hortlund and I are preparing to square off in a match. The ground rules proposed by PH:

Scenario 2
Turn cycle - 1
FOW - on
Adv weather - on
Allied damage control - on
Player defined upgrades - on
Historical first turn - off
Dec 7th surprise - on
Reliable USN torpedos - off
Realistic R&D - off
No unit withdrawals - off
Reinforcements - extremely variable +/- 60

I countered with this suggestion: "Here's an observation on my part, which may or may not be valid.

"I've played three Scenario Two PBEM matches - vs. Miller, vs. Q-Ball, and vs. Chezdajez. The former two were with PDU on and the latter with PDU off. It seems to me that PDU on gives Japan a huge bonus in airpower, while PDU off really hurts Japan. There's no good middle ground, so I think it makes for a better game to play with PDU on (as you suggest).

"Since Japan gets a pretty killer airforce with PDU on, would you consider playing with realistic Allied torps OFF? This would give the Allies a bit of a bump in sub operations, though I don't think it's a huge deal. If you like that idea, start the game with those settings. If you don't like the idea, go ahead and start with the settings you proposed. I leave it to you and I am fine either way."

PH agreed to my suggestion without further discussion. He is working on the first turn now. The game should begin in a day or two.

My thoughts about my opponent and the match to follow later tonight or tomorrow or whenever I feel like it.

About the title: This is a nod to the importance that logistics plays in AE, as many of you will have already deduced. I almost chose "Tales of the Tin Bucket Brigade," but that seemed a bit clunky. Then, "Pac Man Gobbles Dot Hexes" occurred, but that seemed inane. Then a couple of others crossed my mind, but those didn't seem to fit either.
Post #: 1
RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/9/2012 12:35:10 AM   
Dan Nichols


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Realistic R&D off? Look for IJA jet fighters in 1943.

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/9/2012 12:54:24 AM   
crsutton


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The sub option is not a bad deal. You will have a lot more fun with them for two years. But when the super Es come on board your party will end regardless. I think it a good trade and will not unbalance the game. Go for the oil, it is still the best way to control Japanese production. Good luck, I will be following and adding my sage advice as always..

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/9/2012 2:09:50 AM   
ny59giants


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When you responded to PH about playing him, I asked if he would consider playing with the modified Pwhex files found on DaBabes website to incorporated stacking limits. Are you going to try using them?? They add more realism, IMO.

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/9/2012 2:20:17 AM   
Cribtop


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Dan,

Congrats! PJH is a great opponent who will push you to the wall. Good luck!



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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/9/2012 2:22:11 AM   
Canoerebel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants
When you responded to PH about playing him, I asked if he would consider playing with the modified Pwhex files found on DaBabes website to incorporated stacking limits. Are you going to try using them?? They add more realism, IMO.


Mike, can you say that again in English?

(Computers are mysterious magic to me - I sweat hours over trying to get an upgrade downloaded and installed and running; the thought of doing anything else gives me the vapors.)

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 6
RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/9/2012 2:36:56 AM   
Canoerebel


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Here's what little I know about my opponent:  He's been around a long time, he's a good player, and he matriculated at the Nemo School of Advanced Mental Games (or maybe it's his school and Nemo was the student).  Here's two examples of his approach:  From His Opponent's Wanted Advertisement:  "There are two things I have never done in an AE game (yet). Invade Pearl Harbor/West Coast and invade Russia. Im not saying that will happen in this game either, but there is a window of opportunity between Feb/March 42 (when most of the NEI is taken) and the end of the amphib bonus in April...Im just saying." From an Email to Me:  "Im starting on my setup as we speak. Should be interesting to see what reliable torpedos means for the early game. Usually as Japs, the first years are not really something to worry about with regards to the USN submarines. Im thinking that I'll have to detatch several level bomber units for ASW-duty from day 1.  "Someone suggested that I'd attack the soviets in this game. That might make for an interesting game, but Im not sure. On the other hand, everyone has tried India at least once, and Australia is not really unusual either. We'll see where we end up in six months." I don't mind mind games (I think), though I do get rather irritable when the pressure is on and I'm facing imminent destruction.  I first became aware of this flaw in my personality when I tried to install new blinds in my house and my wife, after about six hours, asked me what was taking so long and did I want to call her father for some advice on how to do the job. What little I know about PH comes second hand from Nemo, who told me months ago that PH was a good player and "a prince of a guy." (I think I'm quoting Nemo correctly.) The other thing I know is that I have admired PH's avatar for years now.  You know, Natalie Portman certainly is a pretty young woman.

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/9/2012 2:39:18 AM   
desicat

 

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Save Wake Island! (at least initially)

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/9/2012 2:40:56 AM   
Historiker


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A simple rule: "Ignore everything he says and only take care of what he does"

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/9/2012 2:43:12 AM   
Historiker


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There's an AAR by PJH about Downfall. He shows very good how detailed he thinks and how he plays the mind game.

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There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/9/2012 3:08:40 AM   
zuluhour


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Good luck Dan, I look forward to seeing your command of the Allies from the onset again. I also hope you experience the kind of pressure from Imperial Japan to induce a solid nail biter of an AAR. I like to war game for many reasons and I never considered a PBEM could come close to FTF board gaming when it comes to anxiety, pressure, and emotion. I was wrong. I drove to one of my appointments in DC (about an hour away, two that day) and thought so long and hard on the current turn, I drove 20 minutes past their office. As the calculating southern gentleman general I believe you to be, I look forward to a little "feather ruffling". Cool under fire if you will. As I am not qualified to comment on strategy and tactics, I will be lurking to "beat the drums" for the allied cause.

Head TWIT
CnC Zulu HQ

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/9/2012 7:45:42 AM   
JocMeister

 

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Will certainly follow this one!

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/9/2012 9:06:46 AM   
ny59giants


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quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants
When you responded to PH about playing him, I asked if he would consider playing with the modified Pwhex files found on DaBabes website to incorporated stacking limits. Are you going to try using them?? They add more realism, IMO.



Mike, can you say that again in English?

(Computers are mysterious magic to me - I sweat hours over trying to get an upgrade downloaded and installed and running; the thought of doing anything else gives me the vapors.)


Follow this link to get the three files needed.

https://sites.google.com/site/dababeswitpae/map-and-art/stacking-limit-data

unzip into the main AE folder. So simple, even you can do it Dan.

When you look in the upper left hand corner of a stack of units, it shows the stacking limits of a particular hex. In one of the later Beta patches and now in the latest official patch, there are consequences for overstacking a hex. MichaelM added it to the code and then Andrew Brown and DaBabes team made the changes to the Pwhex to use the stacking limits across the board. You can do it mid-game as I have in my PBEM game in mid-43.

The benefit, IMO, is the elimination of "Death Stars" for both sides. You can still have huge stacks in clear terrain, but I was facing an Allied "Death Star" of 12 divisions, 9 armored units, and numerous support units in a jungle hex in Burma/India. Now, he has had to reduce it down to about 3 full divisions and some support units. Realistically, you cannot put that many troops in a jungle hex (you could, but would need bulldozers to level the field for combat ). I had one outside of Changsha that had to be reduced as Japan.

Personally, I will not go back to playing a game without them. I like the realism it brings.

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/9/2012 9:31:26 AM   
Olorin


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Promising AAR between two good players. Subscribed!

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--A TOAWIII AAR--

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/9/2012 10:11:57 AM   
obvert


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Great to see you've got a good match. I think your subs will eat him alive early on though as the ASW for the IJN is pretty bad to start off, especially in deep water. You also know exactly where things have to come and go, so a few 10 sub blockades of choice destinations will screw up a lot he's trying to do.

The scenario 2 pdu on + realistic R n D off will be interesting to see. I'm guessing you'll see about 200 Franks a months in mid 43.

It'll be fun to watch!

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/9/2012 11:16:21 AM   
derp

 

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Perhaps more importantly, US surface ship (Mk. 15 - 60% dud rate) and aircraft (Mk. 13 - 50% dud rate) torpedoes will work too...

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/9/2012 1:59:34 PM   
Andav

 

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With the realistic Allied torpedoes OFF, a Dec 7th KB port strike on Manila now pretty much required. I would not want all of those subs heading out with torpedoes that worked. The Dutch subs are bad enough!

Looking forward to this game CR.

Wa

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/9/2012 2:03:21 PM   
DOCUP


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I agree with Andav.  Watch for port strike on Manila. 

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/9/2012 2:43:38 PM   
HansBolter


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While reliable torps will help counterbalance PDU on, non-historical first turn means he will devastate your sub force, significantly reducing your counterbalance and as pointed out unrealistic R&D will boost his air advantage. All in all looks like a bad deal to me.

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/9/2012 4:26:41 PM   
Canoerebel


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Thanks for the input and suggestions, gents.  A few comments in reply:

1.  I'm trying to find a happy medium in which an enhanced Japan can fight on more even terms more deeply into the games.  So if the R&D allows PH to produce better aircraft in 1943 and 1944, that's okay.  On the flip side, I was a little worried about 1942, when Japanese airpower under PDU On can be a killer and yet PDU Off seems to swing things the other way.  There doesn't seem to be a happy medium, so I'm hoping better Allied torps will even things out a bit. 

2.  I think this will be a tough game.  PH has the experience and level of aggression that should make 1942 a rip-roarer.

3.  While PH (and Nemo) enjoy the mind games, I don't.  I generally avoid commentary for that reason, because I don't like giving away intel, and because I strive to avoid comments that can seem boastful (even an innocent comment coming after a big victory can strike an opponent the wrong way).  So, my way of playing the mental aspect of the game is to ignore it.

4.  We have no house rules.  Were I playing Nemo, and were Nemo strident in the "no house rules" proclamation, the first thing I would do is empty out both Manila and Pearl Harbor.  But in many games that just won't sit right even in a "no holds bar" atmosphere.  So I won't do anything radical on the opening day of the war.

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/9/2012 4:46:41 PM   
ny59giants


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quote:

1.  I'm trying to find a happy medium in which an enhanced Japan can fight on more even terms more deeply into the games.  So if the R&D allows PH to produce better aircraft in 1943 and 1944, that's okay.  On the flip side, I was a little worried about 1942, when Japanese airpower under PDU On can be a killer and yet PDU Off seems to swing things the other way.  There doesn't seem to be a happy medium, so I'm hoping better Allied torps will even things out a bit.


I would be willing to play with this only if you saved Scenario 2 in another slot, added an upgrade path for the PB and slower SC that allow them to get the Type 95-2 DC to give them a better chance at damaging or sinking Allied subs. Either a late 42 or early 43 upgrade would work. As it now proposed, PH will need to increase his Merchant Shipyards to keep those transports coming out in a timely manner.

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/9/2012 5:04:36 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

While reliable torps will help counterbalance PDU on, non-historical first turn means he will devastate your sub force, significantly reducing your counterbalance and as pointed out unrealistic R&D will boost his air advantage. All in all looks like a bad deal to me.



lol, exactly my thought when I read about the deal with torps and PDU. If I would be PH and would know about subs being a major threat (more so than later because now his ASW stinks) I would take them all out at Manila. All of KB, the CVLs in the area and lots of Betties/Nells would ensure not one of the subs at Manila would survive the first day. It would take a year to replace those losses at Manila so you gained pretty much nothing with realistic torps off.

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/9/2012 5:08:30 PM   
Canoerebel


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That suits me fine.  With the "historic duds" in play, he hits Pearl, destroys a bunch of BBs, and my subs are free to do very litle for a year.  With "historic duds" off, he hits Manila, destroys a bunch of subs that would have been crippled for a year with bad torps, but I get to keep the slow BBs that I can make good use of.  So, whether he hits Manila or whether he hits Pearl, I get something good out of it that otherwise I wouldn't have had.

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/9/2012 5:22:14 PM   
jeffk3510


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Interesting tade off vs torps and PDU... I think you'll enjoy the torps Dan.

Good luck. Looking forward to reading your AAR as always.

Saw a model railroad show about Georgia this weekend, and thought of you, lol.

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/9/2012 5:27:11 PM   
JocMeister

 

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I´m not very familiar with the game and certainly not in 43 and later, but arn´t you afraid this will really imbalance the airwar? In scenario 2 he can certainly outproduce you in terms of airframes? And with Realistic R&D off won´t he be able to to field his airframes way in advance? I woldn´t like to take on some of Japans really good 44 frames in 43 with Ks and Cobras

Again I really don´t know much about this stuff. What would be realistic to excpect with this setup? How far can PJH push it?


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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/9/2012 5:34:55 PM   
Canoerebel


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I faced a pretty advanced Japanase air arm in my Scenario Two match vs. Miller.  It was indeed painful.  But even in 1943 and 1944 with a very good Japanase air arm, the Allies should be powerful enough to make headway.  Truly, though, its 1942 that I'm worried about.  If the Allies can avoid a Japanese auto victory, then 1943 and 1944, while challenging, are no longer fraught with the same tension as is '42.

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/9/2012 5:35:04 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants
When you responded to PH about playing him, I asked if he would consider playing with the modified Pwhex files found on DaBabes website to incorporated stacking limits. Are you going to try using them?? They add more realism, IMO.


Mike, can you say that again in English?

(Computers are mysterious magic to me - I sweat hours over trying to get an upgrade downloaded and installed and running; the thought of doing anything else gives me the vapors.)


\I'm not Mike but I might contribute ...

There is a map found here: http://sites.google.com/site/dababeswitpae/map-and-art/stacking-limit-data Note there are two maps on this site the regular and extended .. I suggest the regular map ... These modified maps have stacking limits imposed on regular hexes along with the Atolls. In fact some of the places like Tabetitueua have even lower limits ...What this does is prevent huge stacks from overrunning the game as exceeding stacking limits invokes a double supply penality. The five divisions over the Stanley Owen mountians becomes impossible ..

It is has simple as saving the ol' map and replacing this map. Both sides have to do it ..

Back to the war ..

As the Allies I replaced the ol' map with this map after I overrun the IJA in Burma with little recourse. It has made a much more interesting game for me.

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/9/2012 5:39:37 PM   
crsutton


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The only thing I caution is that you have some sort of reasonable rule about advancement dates for Japanese aircraft. Rader has ably demonstrated that by pulling the right strings, aircraft can be advanced way to early. Perhaps agree to allow them not more that 3-4 months before the historic date.



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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/9/2012 5:44:24 PM   
witpqs

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

The only thing I caution is that you have some sort of reasonable rule about advancement dates for Japanese aircraft. Rader has ably demonstrated that by pulling the right strings, aircraft can be advanced way to early. Perhaps agree to allow them not more that 3-4 months before the historic date.




I'm not 100% certain but I thought that happened due to a bug in one of the Betas that was fixed in a more recent Beta?

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 4/9/2012 5:51:11 PM   
jeffk3510


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Keep in mind Rader owned China/India/DEI....I doubt Dan will let that happen..

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