RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso)

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso)

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 5/1/2012 2:35:38 AM

Farfarer

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My opponent just used the Evil Starve technique and the long isolated greater Leningrad area fell in the 1941 November Snow turns , the many surrendered divisions will not resurrect, and no population migrated as everyone was long since dead. The same thing was done with several other urban areas and population areas and 'the usual' pockets along the front. Humans are inventive ( well, evil too ;)

(in reply to HITMAN202)

Post #: 31

RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 5/20/2012 8:51:52 PM

76mm

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well, this game is going really slowly, but I thought I'd post a few screen shots. It is Turn 7, screenies after Sov moves:

North:

Center:

South:

Bottom line is that I expect to lose Lgrad, Moscow I still hope to hold but not sure, and in the south I'm doing OK. Have hardly lost any arm points so far, tanks are gone from Lgrad and Kharkov, generally evacs seem on track.

He seems to have turned aside from direct attacks on both Lgrad and Moscow, which should help me a little.

(in reply to HITMAN202)

Post #: 32

RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 6/3/2012 4:53:26 AM

76mm

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Just finished Turn 9, thought I'd post a few screen shots.

Here is the situation in the North, Lgrad is clearly toast,
hopefully I can hang on for a few more turns at least...

The panzers that I thought he was using for a right hook, he actually used to turn
south and create a large pocket with a prong coming up from near Moscow. The
original size of the encirclement is shown by the red lines. While I was able to
break the encirclement and surround several of his regiments, I think that the fact
that these regiments could flip so much terrain to German ZoC is ridiculous:

Here is the area south of Moscow, managed to cut off a few divisions:

Finally, here is the south:

To sum things up, he is really on a fast pace in the north and center, I could be in
real trouble in this game, but we'll see. The reinforcement faucet turns on next
turn (Turn 10), and while most of the divisions are shells, they at least will allow
me to fill in some blank spots on the map.

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 33

RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 7/15/2012 4:50:10 AM

76mm

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Just finished Turn 13, thought I'd post a few screen shots. Game is going very slowly, but we're finally getting closer to the mud--the screen shots below are from Turn 13 after my moves. Lgrad was cut off a few turns ago, and he has been launching lots of encirclement attacks over the last few turns. Luckily most of them have been rather porous, but that means I've been able to delay him a turn or two, not to free the troops. Doesn't look like I'll be able to keep losses to 3 million pre-blizzard, but the good news is that so far I've saved virtually all of my AP and other factories (excepting HI of course!).

Here is the north:

Moscow:

The Center:

South:

OOB:
http://www.vervecom.net/WITE/z013-OOB.jpg

Losses:

The soft factors are set to fuel, I'm kind of amazed that at this point of the game so many of them are green.

I will try to post more regularly now that we are into a more interesting time frame.

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 34

RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 7/15/2012 1:26:08 PM

Pelton

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Hi great to see your still around and playing

Good job so far. All important stuff railed out and your army has kept losses low.

It appears you will hold Moscow, so you will not have a manpower crunch. if you can follow up with a better then aveage blizzard it will be your game to lose.

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Farfarer)

Post #: 35

RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 7/15/2012 2:08:09 PM

gingerbread

Posts: 1166
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I disband the Tank Divisions - I do not want to loose the trucks. You get the brigades anyway and I can't see that it's more cheesy than disbanding the entire line of Stalin Line F.R.'s. The men goes to the infantry.

To make a level 4 fort you have to spike the construction (like retirement benefits

), since the code calculates the number of fort points your construction assets will generate based on the level the fort has when the logistic phase begins. Ideally, the fort should be 2 & 98% and you should have 150+ CP for the job. You'll get to level 4 one more turn after that. It also costs 10 000 supply, so keep the HQ holding the Sappers/RR Brigades in Leningrad, plenty of supply there. The F.R. in the Neva hex must be assigned to this HQ. Delicate timing!

(in reply to HITMAN202)

Post #: 36

RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 7/15/2012 2:16:05 PM

Walloc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

I disband the Tank Divisions - I do not want to loose the trucks. You get the brigades anyway and I can't see that it's more cheesy than disbanding the entire line of Stalin Line F.R.'s. The men goes to the infantry.

Totally agree in not wanting to lose the trucks, but its been confirmed by devs that u dont get replacement units when u actively disband, in the pre nov 41 era i mean. In this case a tank bde and the same applies for inf divisions. So i'd suggest u just move the Tank divs to some where safe and wait it out until u get them swapped to bde's.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 7/15/2012 3:18:19 PM >

(in reply to gingerbread)

Post #: 37

RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 7/22/2012 9:45:25 AM

76mm

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Just finished Turn 14; no dramatic developments so no screenies. I've lost several of his panzer divisions, I expect he is doing a HQ buildup or two for a pre-mud push, so the next few turns could be tough.

Pelton, while I feel better about holding Moscow than I did a few turns ago, I'm not sure if I'm out of the woods yet, we'll see...

(in reply to HITMAN202)

Post #: 38

RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 8/12/2012 6:50:30 PM

76mm

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A few turns behind here. Here are a few screen shots from Turn 15, I opened the turn and found these pockets on Moscow's doorstep (along with a few others):

Luckily I was able to open it with a bunch of bombing attacks and hasty attacks on a regiment in a weak part of the ring (see center of map):

The troops are goners, but hopefully they'll keep him tied up until the mud at this point. His push south of Moscow, however, made me less confident of keeping Moscow, because I don't have much down there...

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 39

RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 8/12/2012 6:58:13 PM

76mm

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Here are a few shots from Turn 16, which I've just finished and sent off.

Pretty standard situation in the north, although he's pushed me out of the Valdai Hills, which hadn't happened to me in previous games:

Things are a bit touch and go around Moscow; looks like I'll hold it until the mud, but no so sure about the snow turns:

I really screwed up here this turn: I wasted all of my bombers on a failed no-hope attack to open the pocket again, and then realized that I have an airfield in the pocket, and I should have used those bombers to supply the pocket. Really cursed myself for that one (sorry comrades!).

South of Moscow things are really dicey--I don't have anywhere near enough troops to even form a continuous line:

I'll be sending more reinforcements here in coming turns, hope it is enough...

Further south my troop are even thinner on the ground, in fact I don't have a line at all in large portions of the front. To some extent I'd like to bait him to go down there, but I think I've overdone it and if I don't watch out he'll take Stalingrad in 41!

I still hold the neck of the Crimea, hope it holds one more turn!

I'll post my losses, production, etc. once the mud hits.

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 40

RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 8/22/2012 5:03:09 AM

76mm

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Finished Turn 17 and am currently playing in the mud in Turn 18. Here are screenshots from after my moves on Turn 17:

Moscow: he has penetrated my fort belt around Moscow (see circled units), which could cause problems in the snow; the battle for Moscow is just beginning I'm afraid:

Here is a shot around Voronezh, my units are very thin on the ground:

Here is the south, also a very thin line:

Now here are some org shots; first OOB--my army seems very weak, not much bigger than his (actually smaller counting his allies):

Here are losses:

And finally, production; while I seem to have plenty of supplies, I am short of supplies in units for some reason:

< Message edited by 76mm -- 8/22/2012 5:07:14 AM >

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 41

RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 8/22/2012 9:03:06 AM

Pelton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Just finished Turn 14; no dramatic developments so no screenies. I've lost several of his panzer divisions, I expect he is doing a HQ buildup or two for a pre-mud push, so the next few turns could be tough.

Pelton, while I feel better about holding Moscow than I did a few turns ago, I'm not sure if I'm out of the woods yet, we'll see...

Only 3.5 million men and 3.5 million dead.

Your in rough shape and he took Rostov. Holding them 100 Moscow manpower points is huge. You can recover, but the odds are against you.

Allot will depend on his blizzard and 42 exp as has been seen in some AAR's. Allot of players lack post 41 exp and can snatch defeat from the jags of victory by hanging themselfs.

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 42

RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 8/22/2012 11:45:29 AM

76mm

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Right now I think my army is too weak to do much damage in the blizzard, but maybe it will pump up over the next few turns; right now many of my units are depleted...

In my game against Ketza I lost 3.9 million (but by the blizzard, not by mud), but my army was not this weak in that game--I think they reduced the manpower multiplier or something since then to reduce the Sov's bodycount.

In retrospect, I think the only way I could have done better is to run as fast as possible. Except by running, it is impossible to keep a decent German player from creating pockets, and the more pockets he creates the easier it gets to create more. The only thing that saved me from an even worse debacle is that many of Zonso's pockets were rather sloppy, and I was able to reopen them once or even twice.

(in reply to Pelton)

Post #: 43

RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 8/22/2012 12:11:25 PM

gingerbread

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Here are screenshots from after my moves on Turn 17:

And finally, production; while I seem to have plenty of supplies, I am short of supplies in units for some reason:

Interesting - I have seen that myself and it has the scent of a bug.

Could you do me a favour and post a screen (two, actually) showing the CR list of Inf directly attached to STAVKA from an odd turn (T17 is fine) with Phase 1 and Phase 2 respectively (example below). Check that it's the same units showing for both phase 1 & 2.

I'm seeing that these units are not getting any supply delivered to them during odd turns. On even turns they get.

Edit: Another tell is that affected units that did not receive supply nor had enough in store can have mode changed from Refit to Ready. Possibly also loss of morale.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by gingerbread -- 8/22/2012 12:37:53 PM >

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 44

RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 8/22/2012 12:19:08 PM

Flaviusx

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You shouldn't be having supply problems here, no, not with the Red Army this beat up. (Armaments are another story. You will surely be tapped out on that score.)

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Post #: 45

RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 8/22/2012 12:23:40 PM

Flaviusx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Right now I think my army is too weak to do much damage in the blizzard, but maybe it will pump up over the next few turns; right now many of my units are depleted...

In my game against Ketza I lost 3.9 million (but by the blizzard, not by mud), but my army was not this weak in that game--I think they reduced the manpower multiplier or something since then to reduce the Sov's bodycount.

In retrospect, I think the only way I could have done better is to run as fast as possible. Except by running, it is impossible to keep a decent German player from creating pockets, and the more pockets he creates the easier it gets to create more. The only thing that saved me from an even worse debacle is that many of Zonso's pockets were rather sloppy, and I was able to reopen them once or even twice.

You needed to do better by Leningrad...and stop the Finns cold at the choke point. But that aside, yeah, things are rough nowadays. More and more Soviets are getting forced into runaways, especially down south. If the Red Army drops below 4 million going into autumn, that's generally the point where things start to snowball out of control. Replacements simply won't keep up with this kind of loss ratio.

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Post #: 46

RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 8/22/2012 2:26:05 PM

76mm

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Gingerbread, I've already sent back Turn 18, I will try to remember to get your screenies on Turn 19.

FlaviusX, yeah, my eyes weren't opened on the bottleneck until after I'd gotten past it in this game. I would try it next game, but I don't think I'll be playing after this one.

On armaments, obviously I'm at zero now. Somehow, in my game against Ketza many patches ago, I built lots of artillery and other units and still had almost two million AP points despite losing a lot more AP in that game than in this one. Oh well...

(in reply to Flaviusx)

Post #: 47

RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 8/22/2012 5:18:26 PM

Seminole

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quote:

Right now I think my army is too weak to do much damage in the blizzard, but maybe it will pump up over the next few turns; right now many of my units are depleted...

Don't underestimate how badly the blizzard gimps the Axis.
I suffered pretty egregious losses by turn 17 and 25 (but held onto more manpower than you have) and still had an outstanding blizzard.

Turn 17

Turn 25

I only had 212 rifle divisions on the map on turn 17, and only 267 rifle divisions by turn 25. Units lost by turn 25:

Focus your cavalry corps in the Shock Armies and give them your best generals (high Inf/Adm/Init) so you can get good MP and not get your CV hammered on rolls. Those cavalry corps are your exploitation force, and they are what will enable you to unhinge his line and capture units whole if he retreats too slowly.
Focus your refit NOW so you can get some units to decent TOE for the blizzard. You don't need the whole army ready to go, but you need some units to crack the line for your cavalry. With the rains you can rest some of your divisions on the rails and refit them, don't have everyone on refit. At the end of each turn you need to be going through and checking who is on refit. During the blizzard you'll need to be refitting some divisions while those your rested during the rains make their assaults, then you can rotate.
Use your rifle/tank brigades maintain contact with the enemy, let them suffer the attrition/counterattacks. They'll have much lower losses than if you left your rifle divisions and cavalry corps on the front line, and having those units behind the line will help them get better replacements, supply, and rest than ending each week locked with the enemy.
You have 9 weeks of blizzard in Dec-Jan to get things done. After that the German penalties will fall enough, and your own units will be burned out / far from supply, that you can't expect too much more.
You should have three goals in the blizzard. Getting units Guards eligible, getting more units Guards eligible, and driving down the morale of as many Axis units as possible. Once you can get the Axis pushed out of their initial forts they'll suffer.

< Message edited by Seminole -- 8/22/2012 5:26:50 PM >

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Post #: 48

RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 8/22/2012 5:36:24 PM

821Bobo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole
Focus your cavalry corps in the Shock Armies and give them your best generals (high Inf/Adm/Init)...

Are you sure with the inf rating? I thought that cavalry is considered as motorized/mechanized unit.

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Post #: 49

RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 8/22/2012 5:38:07 PM

Flaviusx

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Cavalry benefits from the infantry rating and, yes, this is weird.

I'm a lot less optimistic that even a wildly successful blizzard can fix things nowadays, btw. If the Red Army goes into summer of 1942 too weak and thinly spread, even killing dozens of Axis divisions during the blizzard may not be enough. Especially with the new manpower multipliers. The replacement situation is very fragile now. 76mm is probably looking at not much more than 90k men/turn in 1942 and it's extremely difficult to build up the Red Army with that once you factor in attrition, let alone combat losses. Successful blizzard offensives don't come cheap, either.

Am watching Kamil's current game very carefully in this regard.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 8/22/2012 5:41:58 PM >

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 8/22/2012 6:00:27 PM

Seminole

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quote:

Successful blizzard offensives don't come cheap, either.

Totally depends on how his opponent plays. If he just runs away as fast as possible and offers 76mm no chance to fight in the 9 weeks he has a chance to, then I'd agree, he's in serious trouble. All the same, his opponent may underestimate what is left of the Red Army and pay dearly.
That's why we play the game.

(in reply to Flaviusx)

Post #: 51

RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 8/22/2012 7:36:10 PM

hfarrish

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Cavalry benefits from the infantry rating and, yes, this is weird.

Damn - is that a change? I had thought for sure it had been received wisdom that Cav operated from the mech rating. There's some APs down the tubes...

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Post #: 52

RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 8/22/2012 8:30:42 PM

821Bobo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish
Damn - is that a change? I had thought for sure it had been received wisdom that Cav operated from the mech rating. There's some APs down the tubes...

Tell me, I just wasted some 50APs because of that in my game vs Pelton.

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Post #: 53

RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 10/13/2012 8:21:25 AM

76mm

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It's been awhile since I posted, but this game is still continuing, so I thought I'd catch up. I just sent him turn 24, so next turn will be the blizzard. But more on that later.

Someone has asked me for screenies of the supply situation for armies. Below I've pasted this info for turn 19 and 20:
TURN 19 PHASE 1:

TURN 19 PHASE 2:

As you can see, lots of zeroes, although I'm not sure what is normal.

TURN 20 PHASE 1:

TURN 20 PHASE 2:

I'll let someone smarter than me figure out if this is normal, but I will say that in the supply line on the production screen, I am short by almost quarter (I need 28 have only 23), which seems odd given the small size of my army. I'll get a screen next turn, forgot to do so.

Zonso really kept attacking right through Turn 24, none of this retreat to Poland stuff for him. Here are a few screen shots from Turns 22 & 23:

TURN 22:
Moscow--holding tough!

Voronezh--here is a failed encirclement attempt, or maybe was just trying to get me to pull back a bit. I did pull back a few hexes.

South--my strength continues to grow (from zero) in this area, at the top is a pocket I managed to open.

TURN 23:
Moscow--he continued to attack here, getting right to the gates of Moscow.

Center--here is the center, with another opened pocket.

South--more of the same:

Crimea--held most of it:

I didn't bother getting new screenies for Turn 24, not much changed. He launched a bunch of attacks all along the front for the last few turns, but didn't try any penetrations or encirclements.

His front line looks to be pretty disordered, and I hope to be able to wreak a little havoc during the blizzard, although my army is weak (only about 4 million), so there will be a limit as to what I can do. I guess it depends on him as well, if he starts pulling back or intends to hold what he's got.

Main main goals are still under consideration, welcome any thoughts. I'll also post production, OOB, and casualty screens from the beginning of Turn 25 for anyone who cares about such things.

(in reply to 821Bobo)

Post #: 54

RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 10/13/2012 1:24:33 PM

gingerbread

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Hi and thanks for remembering to post!

As you wrote, it's been awhile and the issue I saw is considered to be resolved with fix 3 in 1.06.19 (changing status) and I have not seen any signs in any of my games since.
In your screens, the odd one/unit out is 225 Rifle Division that did not receive nor consume any supplies in turn 19 (seen as SupR = 0 in both phases and SupC = 0 in Phase2, respectively). It is a reinforcement in that turn so it cannot be due to isolation and new units should at least consume even if it arrived with enough to not draw any new supplies. I could also be that you did not have any men left in the regular replacement segment and that the unit therefore didn't have enough men to consume a quantity that would show up as '1' or more. Partisans use different rules.

As to the situation in your game, I'd say you should be very selective and opportunistic in your choice of attacks during the blizzard season. It can be very costly in manpower to go for wins in order to get guards and that is a luxury that you can ill afford, as are attacks made just to lower the defenders morale. Air power does not cost any men so mass your air where you choose to attack, but keep the bases on rail (MP to rail = 0) to reduce vehicle losses. In sections where your not attacking, look for units that can be rotated back (10+ hexes) to train morale by refit.
A final caveat: An opportunistic doctrine can lead to very strange front lines so balance this with one eye towards where you want your defensive lines in '42.

Again, thank for posting the screens!

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 55

RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 10/14/2012 6:19:08 PM

76mm

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Woo hoo! First turn of the blizzard is over! As promised, here are screenies with some of the admin stuff:
OOB:

Losses:

Production:

How do these production numbers look? Are AP and HI OK? It sounds like they are not much of a factor at this point, but let me know... How about manpower? I've lots lots of cities, but hopefully nothing too bad.

Oh yeah, the turn itself; nothing too exciting, he pulled back a couple of hexes all across the front, so I could only get in about ten attacks, most of which were successful. Formed as many cav corps as I could, would like to buff them up.

I don't intend to be too aggressive with attacks, but we'll see how things go. The main thing for me is to get more space in front of Moscow and get back some ground in the south to prepare for 1942. I've only been through one spring of 1942, and the game has morphed pretty seriously since then, so I'm worried about next year.

(in reply to gingerbread)

Post #: 56

RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 10/14/2012 7:08:19 PM

TulliusDetritus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm
I don't intend to be too aggressive with attacks, but we'll see how things go. The main thing for me is to get more space in front of Moscow and get back some ground in the south to prepare for 1942. I've only been through one spring of 1942, and the game has morphed pretty seriously since then, so I'm worried about next year.

What I saw during 1942 did not please me. Basically unstoppable concentrated armored spearheads (turn after turn), and mere 1:1 ants on my side (dramatic drop of morale, and I had pulled back minimum 100 rifle divisions after the blizzard massacres...). Had I known this (on my other previous game the Red Army was way too strong though) I would have ran away, leaving behind some victims... I would have avoided catastrophic losses that is.

_____________________________

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(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 57

RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 10/14/2012 8:11:23 PM

gingerbread

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You need to channel the ARM points produced to your front line infantry divisions. The way to do that is to set most of everything else to 50% TOE - all artillery to 50% is a must as are the motorcycles.
You should also be able to afford RR Brigades (no ARM) to a total of 40-50. This will use up manpower, but I doubt you will be able to get the 900k in the pool out into units until mid-April in any case. Keep the RR's at front level. The RR's will save on vehicles lost in supply operations.

Your ARM situation will eventually improve, but then you will face the July '42 Rifle squad upgrade so it will be tight for quite a while. 348 is a good number of ARM factories, 159 HI is adequate for your needs.

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 58

RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 10/15/2012 3:57:52 AM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
What I saw during 1942 did not please me. Basically unstoppable concentrated armored spearheads (turn after turn), and mere 1:1 ants on my side (dramatic drop of morale, and I had pulled back minimum 100 rifle divisions after the blizzard massacres...). Had I known this (on my other previous game the Red Army was way too strong though) I would have ran away, leaving behind some victims... I would have avoided catastrophic losses that is.

Yikes, this is what I was afraid of... My last Spring 42 was pre-fort-nerf and it was still a scary experience...

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)

Post #: 59

RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 11/3/2012 6:56:54 AM

76mm

Posts: 1703
Joined: 5/2/2004
Status: offline

Haven't received a turn from Zonso in weeks, and he is not responding to my e-mails; I hope he has not abandoned this game just as we got to the blizzard, that would be most unsportsmanlike. Will wait another week or two before drawing any conclusions...

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 60