76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso)

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76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso)

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76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 4/8/2012 7:09:53 PM

76mm

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Just starting a new game with the Alt VC tonight, vs Zonso. I probably won't be posting much about the first several turns, but will start posting after ten turns or so. Wish me luck!

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 4/8/2012 10:00:28 PM

Ramses

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Wish me luck!

Done

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 4/9/2012 3:45:22 AM

AFV

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No, I am rooting for Zonso!
Just kidding.
You gonna be Axis? Any house rules?

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 4/9/2012 4:40:38 AM

76mm

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I only play as Sov, don't have the skills, knowledge, or desire to play as the Nazi invaders, er, Germans. It's OK if people root for Zonso, just don't go overboard in my AAR!

No house rules, other than play to the end (unless the game becomes completely lopsided and/or destroyed by patches again).

Turn 1 is over; he got a giant Lvov Pocket(s); I was able to open it, but all those troops are goners. While I would never make it a house rule (would never find an opponent, if nothing else), I really hate the Lvov Opening, really sucks a lot of fun out of the 1941 campaign when many of my best units are taken off the table without me being able to do anything about it. This comment is not intended to reopen the topic of whether the Lvov Opening is fair, realistic, etc.--addressed in many many threads already--I just don't like it, that's all.

This is only my third GC; one (vs Ketza) was played to a draw (in my view) before being wrecked by the umpteenth major patch, and in the second my opponent (an inexperienced German player) quit halfway through the blizzard. I'm hoping to avoid a lot of the mistakes made in my game with Ketza during the 1941 campaigning season. In terms of goals, nothing complicated--I want to keep Moscow and keep losses at around 3 million.

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 4/9/2012 3:20:51 PM

gids

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good luck i follow it :) ,try posting what you do on opening turns in matters of supply refit TOE airplanes what you do with HQ and fronts and so on ,if you want ofcourse

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 4/9/2012 4:55:26 PM

76mm

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OK, so far it is easy...I sent all of my planes to the national reserve, and all of my airbases are moving full speed to the rear. I will try to get them established by turn 6 or so. I totally botched the air war in my first game so will be looking to do it better this game, but don't know how yet.

Same approach with HQs, I don't try to rationalize them for the first few turns, there is not much point. I also don't change leaders this early.

With AP, on Turn 1 I created a few FZs--one in Lgrad's back door, and two more near Moscow. I will probably create several more over all, including a few more near Moscow, a couple in the entrance to the Crimea, and maybe a couple on the Finnish border.

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 4/9/2012 6:51:44 PM

Flaviusx

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I don't think it's a good idea to move the entire Red Air Force to the reserve. You can almost immediately establish a strong air presence by Leningrad, for example.

Finally, you must always, always keep your recon units flying and tracking panzer movements.

You're giving his bombers a total free pass to fly as deep and without escort as they want without any fear of interception. That's going to make it that much easier for him to drop air resupply.

I also hate the Lvov opening and consider it one of the biggest problems in the game right now and it's completely distorting the 41 campaign. Until and unless the surprise turn mechanics get a do over we are stuck with it.

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 4/9/2012 7:07:24 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
I don't think it's a good idea to move the entire Red Air Force to the reserve. You can almost immediately establish a strong air presence by Leningrad, for example.

Finally, you must always, always keep your recon units flying and tracking panzer movements.

You're giving his bombers a total free pass to fly as deep and without escort as they want without any fear of interception. That's going to make it that much easier for him to drop air resupply.

As usual, you raise some good points, but in my experience for the first couple of turns it is pretty easy to tell where the panzers are--whereever the deep gashes in my lines are.

The main reason I send everyone to the national reserve is that is it then easier to reorganize things like I want. Your point about air resupply, though, I find pretty convincing, so I will probably put planes back on the ground a bit earlier, maybe turn 3 or so. I need serious help with the air war though, so will pay more attention than usual to tips on how to do it!

And what about using the U2s for night bombing raids? Worthwhile? What the best targets, panzer HQs?

And I guess I should put Zhukov at Stavka these days? And now it sounds like I should keep him there?

Also, what's the current best option for garrisoning the Finnish border? I used to put all of my security units up there, but now that they disappear suddenly I guess I should use rifle brigades?

< Message edited by 76mm -- 4/9/2012 7:14:03 PM >

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 4/9/2012 11:09:31 PM

Farfarer

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Be careful zooming those airbases eastwards as I think they burn up trucks doing so - and it is ALL about trucks. I can't imagine the Axis having a chance without the Lvov pocket, and have no heartache whatsoever with my Axis opponents who routinely use it. Having said that when I first played as Axis I drove east, and was of the "pocketing obsession lost the chance to take Moscow" school. The Lvov pocket is addictive as an opening, so once you do it...

Conversely, if I had the chance to save all those high value mobile units, they would stream eastwards, dig and eventually convert yielding - what else - their trucks - so that isn't realistic either.

Have a great game!

< Message edited by Farfarer -- 4/10/2012 2:57:10 AM >

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 4/10/2012 12:22:29 AM

Flaviusx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

I can't imagine the Axis having a chance without the Lvov pocket

That's a failure of imagination on your part. 1941 right now is very rough on the Soviets, in part due to this. (the other part being the extremely generous logistics.) The Axis could do fine without it. But the opening is so good, that nobody will play without it now. The only question is how far can you push it.

It would be nice to see a historical game once in a while. Y'know, one where Pg 2 and 3 stay in the center, Kiev gets bagged in September not July, Moscow isn't attacked until October as opposed to August, etc. The whole 41 campaign is just whack right now.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 4/10/2012 12:24:42 AM >

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 4/10/2012 12:31:21 AM

Aurelian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

And what about using the U2s for night bombing raids? Worthwhile? What the best targets, panzer HQs?

I find that they're nasty bombing HQs in enough numbers. In men alone at times it's been on average 600-700 lost due to them.

But after 60 turns of doing it, have yet to kill a leader.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 4/10/2012 12:33:33 AM >

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 4/11/2012 8:53:16 PM

TulliusDetritus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
I don't think it's a good idea to move the entire Red Air Force to the reserve. You can almost immediately establish a strong air presence by Leningrad, for example.

Finally, you must always, always keep your recon units flying and tracking panzer movements.

You're giving his bombers a total free pass to fly as deep and without escort as they want without any fear of interception. That's going to make it that much easier for him to drop air resupply.

As usual, you raise some good points, but in my experience for the first couple of turns it is pretty easy to tell where the panzers are--whereever the deep gashes in my lines are.

The main reason I send everyone to the national reserve is that is it then easier to reorganize things like I want. Your point about air resupply, though, I find pretty convincing, so I will probably put planes back on the ground a bit earlier, maybe turn 3 or so. I need serious help with the air war though, so will pay more attention than usual to tips on how to do it!

And what about using the U2s for night bombing raids? Worthwhile? What the best targets, panzer HQs?

And I guess I should put Zhukov at Stavka these days? And now it sounds like I should keep him there?

Also, what's the current best option for garrisoning the Finnish border? I used to put all of my security units up there, but now that they disappear suddenly I guess I should use rifle brigades?

The Finnish border? Cheap Security regiments eh? Be a man!

As I see it (fair play) a minimum of divisions should be there. 3 north of Leningrad and 4 east of Lake Ladoga (an entire army that is) *

On my first game I had sent the whole air force to the national reserve. That's totally irrational methinks (in the real life that is). On the second and current game they were kept at the front. See it this way: you need every poor soul to stop the Hitlerite bandits. Starting on turn 2

Same thing with the U2s Coffinov. Worthless or not they must do their part. I target the most dangerous enemy units aka panzer units.

* but given that the German players are throwing overboard the Barbarossa Plan, feel free to ignore this advice

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 4/12/2012 7:30:56 AM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
The Finnish border? Cheap Security regiments eh? Be a man! As I see it (fair play) a minimum of divisions should be there. 3 north of Leningrad and 4 east of Lake Ladoga (an entire army that is) *

On my first game I had sent the whole air force to the national reserve. That's totally irrational methinks (in the real life that is). On the second and current game they were kept at the front. See it this way: you need every poor soul to stop the Hitlerite bandits. Starting on turn 2

hmmmm, I've never shared your thoughts on what constitutes fair play--I don't think that having entire panzer armies romp through the trackless forests to the Finnish border is fair or realistic play either, but German players don't see too bothered by it. Moreover, I don't see what good four divisions will do east of Ladoga, the border is much longer than that...

I'm also not sure that sending all aircraft to the national reserve is particularly irrational--most of my airbases have been moving backwards full speed for the first two turns so the planes would not be able to do much flying anyway. By now (the end of Turn 2), most of my airbases are where I want them, so I will put planes back on the ground on Turn 3 (I probably should have done this at the end of Turn 2, after I'd moved the airbases, but didn't think of it).

I fully subscribe to the idea of putting the U2s to work, damn the casualties, but am not sure if the best targets are the panzer divisions or panzer HQs. My guess is that hitting the HQs would be better (they are softer targets and any damage to the HQs should impact multiple panzer divs), but this is purely a guess and not based on any data or experience, so I'm not sure.

In Turn 2, I evacced the KV factory and some arm points from Lgrad; next turn I'll probably move the vehicle factories from Lgrad and more arm points from more vulnerable locations. After that, I'll play it by ear. I don't hear much about people evaccing vehicle factories, but I had a real vehicle crunch last game which I would like to avoid this game.

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 4/28/2012 10:08:23 AM

76mm

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This game is really creeping along, just finished Turn 4; Pskov has fallen and he is approaching Smolensk and Kiev. Planes are back on the ground since last turn, partisan supply flights reaching deep. A couple of smallish pockets since Turn 1, nothing disasterous. Forts going up around Moscow and Lgrad. Will keep you posted...

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 4/29/2012 6:07:38 AM

randallw

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There is a good bottleneck on the northern part of the Finnish front; there are three hexes that can block the route in the area north of Lake Ladoga, on the east side of a minor river in forest hexes.

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 4/29/2012 2:58:14 PM

vicberg

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Put FZs along the entire finish border. Withdrawl all troops from Finland and focus everything on Leningrad. Hold it for as long as possible to tie up PZG4.

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 4/29/2012 4:19:56 PM

Flaviusx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

Put FZs along the entire finish border. Withdrawl all troops from Finland and focus everything on Leningrad. Hold it for as long as possible to tie up PZG4.

No. This is wrong on all counts.

Fight a forward defense against the Finns, reinforce 7. Army heavily and stall them. With proper use of reserves you can slow them down to a crawl up north near the bottleneck. The terrain is atrocious and they haven't got any real mobile ability. This is a place where the Soviets can fight to real effect.

Even if Leningrad falls, as it almost surely will, don't run away and keep the Finns bottled up. The pressure they can exert from up north by the Svir is what often turns the fall of Leningrad into a complete rout up north. With them contained, the Soviet can fall back behind the Volkhov river in good order and stabilize the whole northern front post Leningrad.

Running away to the Svir is a mistake. Building FRs on the Finnish border is a waste of APs, too.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 4/29/2012 4:21:57 PM >

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 4/30/2012 4:46:42 AM

vicberg

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LOL

Maybe in your book, but not mine. Why defend useless terrain? Because you can? So the finns move down and take a bunch of forest? Who cares? By the blizzard, the Soviets have more than enough to stop up any threat that the Finns by themselves may pose to any city in the far north. However, those Soviet troops along the finn border can make a big difference in defending Lgrad. Lgrad will fall. The longer it lasts, the less likely PZG4 links with PZG2 and PZG3.

Defending forests or defending Moscow? Hmmm....

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 4/30/2012 4:55:31 AM

bigbaba

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well i guess thats a question of playing style.

as russian player i tend to send a minimum number of reinforcment to the north. i prefer a strong defense around moscow.

that plus the fact that some of the best russian high CV units are north of leningrad leads me to giving up terrain against finnland and use the troops there to hold leningrad as long as possible. if leningrad falls in turn 8-9 then one will face half of the AGN at the moscow front.

but it depends on preorities and playing style.

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 4/30/2012 5:12:44 AM

vicberg

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Agreed....reinforce Finland? No way. Reinforce Lgrad theater, absolutely. 3-4 armies, checkboard after Pskov to buy time to fort build along the Volga. Carpet from the Volga to Lgrad 3 lines deep in reserve mode with triple stacked hexes along the Volga. Germans will push, but it's slow going and that's the goal. Oh, make sure to fort build the two clear hexes one hex east of Lgrad cities just south of Finnish no attack line. There's an all important port that the Germans have to capture to isolate Lgrad.

After Zhukov is placed into Stavka, I started in Lgrad and started putting high initiative leaders into the army commands. Helps with getting reserves committed to battle.

< Message edited by vicberg -- 4/30/2012 5:23:40 AM >

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 4/30/2012 5:46:29 AM

Flaviusx

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Not an either/or thing. I reinforce both Finland and Leningrad heavily. No checkerboard nonsense, either, I send most of the reserve armies up here on turn 1 and make a full stand. The fight for Moscow begins in Pskov, not by Smolensk. 7. Army with 24 CP worth of units can stop the Fins cold. This seems to me far greater economy than running away to the Svir, spending dozens of APs on FR, and then having a bunch of stuff bagged when they plunge into your rear after they get released for action past the stop line. Never let them get that far in the first place.

If Leningrad falls as early as turn 8-9, you're going to have 3 panzer groups in your face for a good two months of clear weather by Moscow, and this will be very hard to stop. You have to drag the thing out much later than that.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 4/30/2012 5:58:56 AM >

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 4/30/2012 6:05:19 AM

vicberg

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Well, you complain about Lvov opening. I don't have enough troops to defend a full stand until around turns 6-7, minimum. Checkerboard is economy of force. I use them in turns 3 through ? to defend as much as I can without giving too much ground until there's sufficient force to form carpets.

In Lgrad area, around turn 3-4, checkerboard are a holding action around Pskov while reserves are moving and forts being built. If you have enough troops for a forward defense of Pskov AND a defense of Finland AND a defense of Smolensk area, then don't complain about Lvov.

BTW, Finns aren't going to plunge anywhere through forests, especially since they can't attack anything until Lgrad falls. There's plenty of time to deal with the Finns. 40 AP is worth a couple of extra armies defending Lgrad.

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 4/30/2012 6:13:33 AM

Flaviusx

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Oh, I don't defend the Smolensk area at all now, I just screen the corridor with whatever remnants of Western Front survive. Let these expend themselves as pickets and get them into the replacement pool ASAP. It's faster to get them killed than to train them what with their wretched morale.

Reinforcements in the center go directly to the Rzhev-Vyzma-Bryansk line, mostly the cadres that arrive.

Like I said: the defense of Moscow begins in Pskov, not Smolensk.

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 4/30/2012 6:22:47 AM

vicberg

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That makes sense. A lot of sense. I may have to try that :)

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 4/30/2012 6:33:56 AM

vicberg

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BTW, that's exactly the argument that Michaelt uses for mules. Your ability to put brigades up that have FULL zoc against divisions (or multiple divisions) that forces wasting MPs in order to plow though.

I know you're probably not going to like what I just said, it's an argument for a variable ZOC. Brigades shouldn't stop divisions, especially multiple divisions. One brigade? Divisions should be able to sweep aside these brigades by moving right past them, or at least maybe having a brigade/single division remaining behind to counter the ZOC, and that makes this type of picket defense much more powerful than it should be.

What's I've been saying in multiple posts over the last 1 1/2 weeks is that that combat mechanics lend themselves to picket/checkerboard/carpet defenses, thus the argument by Michaelt and others to mule. It's the only way to pound through them.

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 4/30/2012 6:44:04 AM

Flaviusx

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I don't rely on just brigades or ants to do this. As a matter of fact there are quite a few divisions that I want to get killed, and these go out on suicide picket duty. And unlike most players, I'm perfectly willing to sacrifice tank divisions doing this as well, since I welcome the opportunity to rout them right off the map in heavy combat and put them on the reinforcement schedule as brigades. (Don't ever put these things on refit, btw, you actually want them to be weak.)

The reason the center just doesn't matter very much is entirely because of the standard Axis opening. The south is gone, and the panzers are migrating to the flanks. You needn't worry about covering SW Front's northern flank and prevent an end run because SW Front is gone after turn 1 and the Dnepr is crossed anyways by turn 6 or so.

Under different circumstances, I would fight hard in the center, but given the present state of the game, it's bad economy of force. The Germans don't care about the center, not initially. They smash the flanks and then go for Moscow in the clean up. So I pick one of those flanks, the north, and make a fight of it.

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 4/30/2012 2:52:11 PM

bigbaba

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you got a good point flaviusx. the longer one can hold leningrad the lesser will be the number of german panzers in the last months of good weather against moscow.

now one can defend against finy and save the AP for forts or get the troops south of leningrad and slow the german advance against the city instead.

beside all that its a very good strategy to delay the fins in far north with the 7th army.

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 4/30/2012 5:14:18 PM

HITMAN202

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Playing as the Axis in the Leningrad Scenario against the computer, I face level 4 forts (not fortified zones) in front of and behind the Neva by turns 6-7. Can a human achieve this in the 41-45 campaign ??? The loss of a large number of Soviet divisions delaying the German push across the Luga seems unnecessary if the Neva "Maginot Line" can be established, as the computer seems able to achieve. Ney or Yey ????

< Message edited by HITMAN202 -- 4/30/2012 6:50:48 PM >

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 4/30/2012 5:20:08 PM

Flaviusx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

Playing as the Axis in the Leningrad Scenario against the computer, I face level 4 forts (not fortified zones) in front of and behind the Neva by turns 6-7.

Nope. I have never been able to get a level 4 fort built up in 1941 in 1.05. Even with maximum engineering support the best I've managed is around 3.8, and then the German is on the front lines and the FRs and attached engineers have to be disbanded. This is after 12 or so turns of digging, and with civilian labor and non attached engineering support, too, by Leningrad. Level 3 is doable, but level 4 takes forever.

Fortified regions rarely pay off in PBEM as the Soviet.

You can't reach level 4 forts without an FR, so I don't understand how the AI is getting level 4 forts without them. The most you can reach is level 3 without an FR. Might be a bug. Or an undisclosed AI cheat.

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RE: 76mm GC-ALT VC (No Zonso) - 4/30/2012 7:01:24 PM

HITMAN202

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Just played the first turn on ROAD TO LENINGRAD as Axis and just let the computer play unopposed and at the Neva line two "3" and two "4" forts were already built at the end of the Soviet's first turn !!! !!!!

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