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Losses & replacements

 
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Losses & replacements - 4/6/2012 11:49:21 PM   
IronDuke

 

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I've just started turn 7 and I am showing (before moving a single piece) 20000+ losses, am I right that these are the effects of the attrition rules during my general logistics phase?

Am i also right in thinking that half of these losses will return to the manpower pool in the logistics phase of the next turn? (The other half are KIA?)

Am I also right in thinking that a similiar hit will strike my opponent after my turn has ended and the Soviet turn begins with the Soviet player general logistics phase when his units attrit?

Sorry if these are newbie questions, but I am getting back into this after a year out and want to try and understand whether my losses are going to be prohibitive or not.

Is the real loss figure KIA + Captured?

Of the 120000 I have disabled, how many will return to the manpower pool and when? (Assuming all units disengaged and did no fighting, so additions to the disabled pool were minimal if any - just for example's sake) would the entire pool return to duty eventually (or would everyone minus a certain % considered too badly injured?)

What are good and bad losses for the start of turn 7 AXIS?

Regards,
ID

Any help much appreciated.
Post #: 1
RE: Losses & replacements - 4/7/2012 12:00:12 AM   
IronDuke

 

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From: Manchester, UK
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One other thing. I can see that refit replacements go to refit units and normal replacements go to anyone else, but why are men returned to the manpower pool in both segments?

Also, in the expanded table that shows since one of the patches, it seems to show a "+" number but a different "-" (minus) number returned to the pool. What am I seeing here? (Apart from a glimpse of my own lack of common sense and intelligence on this aspect of the game?)

Many thanks for any help offered.

Regards,
ID

(in reply to IronDuke)
Post #: 2
RE: Losses & replacements - 4/7/2012 7:19:16 AM   
cpt flam


Posts: 1165
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From: caen - France
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some thought not 100/100 sure
axis get back 1/100 from disabled each turn (half of that for russia)
in the log you see in + new arrival to units (levy + disable return)
- being due to opponent turn actions

(in reply to IronDuke)
Post #: 3
RE: Losses & replacements - 4/10/2012 4:00:00 PM   
IronDuke

 

Posts: 1577
Joined: 6/30/2002
From: Manchester, UK
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Does no one understand this who could help? Any Devs willing to explain(or am I blacklisted after my recent efforts in the WitW thread?....;-)

Interestingly, if you disengage the two armies and move nothing across borders, German attrition losses in barracks are around 2500 per week, about a thousand of which seem to return as replacements, offsetting the net disabled loss by that amount.

This suggests those returning from the disabled pool would never do more than mitigate normal attrition rates. I.E. They wouldn't help rebuild an Army.

Any thoughts welcome.

Regards,
ID

(in reply to cpt flam)
Post #: 4
RE: Losses & replacements - 4/10/2012 5:04:05 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 21423
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke


I've just started turn 7 and I am showing (before moving a single piece) 20000+ losses, am I right that these are the effects of the attrition rules during my general logistics phase?

They are impact of front line attrition and also logistics checks on damaged units that may destroy or fix them.

Am i also right in thinking that half of these losses will return to the manpower pool in the logistics phase of the next turn? (The other half are KIA?)

Some of these men are disabled. Depends on what caused the loss. Somewhere in the manual it lists what percentage of units lost are disabled, etc. depending on reason for them being destroyed or sent back to the pool. Someone should pull together all the various numbers as I'm sure many would be interested.

Am I also right in thinking that a similiar hit will strike my opponent after my turn has ended and the Soviet turn begins with the Soviet player general logistics phase when his units attrit?

Yes, but you won't see it, because of when the current and turn losses are zeroed out (right after the logistics phase after first viewing of losses screen).

Sorry if these are newbie questions, but I am getting back into this after a year out and want to try and understand whether my losses are going to be prohibitive or not.

Is the real loss figure KIA + Captured?

Those are real permanent losses, but disabled come back very slowly. There are also casualties that happen that never show up as a loss in the permanent totals because these are men that went back to the transit pool but will be available fairly quickly (unlike disabled that return slowly). Some make the mistake of thinking that permanent losses (kia, captured, disabled) equals total casualties and this can be compared to historical casualty totals. This is incorrect. There are many casualties that are men leaving units and going to the transit pool which are not listed in the permanent losses.

Of the 120000 I have disabled, how many will return to the manpower pool and when? (Assuming all units disengaged and did no fighting, so additions
to the disabled pool were minimal if any - just for example's sake) would the entire pool return to duty eventually (or would everyone minus a certain % considered too badly injured?)

For the Axis, 1% will return each turn (split by country, see 21.1.10.1 in the manual). For the Soviets, starting with version 1.05.18, it is only 1/2% per turn.

What are good and bad losses for the start of turn 7 AXIS?

Regards,
ID

Any help much appreciated.



_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to IronDuke)
Post #: 5
RE: Losses & replacements - 4/10/2012 5:11:48 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 21423
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke


One other thing. I can see that refit replacements go to refit units and normal replacements go to anyone else, but why are men returned to the manpower pool in both segments?

I'm not 100% sure, but there are at least two possibilities. First, when a unit changes TOE, it can send back some elements that are no longer needed. Second, each turn, 1/2 of the damaged elements of non-isolated units return to the pool. The manual in section 18.2.1 says "All other things being equal, returning ground elements have a better chance of going back to their original units." My guess is that one or both of the above losing of elements from a unit happens at the same time the unit is checking to see what replacements it's going to receive. So refitting units send back units in the refit phase, and non-refitting units send them back in the normal phase. This is just a guess and would make some sense given what all of this shuffling is supposed to represent (men and equipment lightly wounded or lightly damaged that would return fairly quickly to the unit they came from, or weapon upgrades that would come into a unit where the men would stay but the equipment would change out).

Also, in the expanded table that shows since one of the patches, it seems to show a "+" number but a different "-" (minus) number returned to the pool. What am I seeing here? (Apart from a glimpse of my own lack of common sense and intelligence on this aspect of the game?)

Many thanks for any help offered.

Regards,
ID



_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to IronDuke)
Post #: 6
RE: Losses & replacements - 4/10/2012 5:15:07 PM   
BigAnorak


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From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
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quote:

What are good and bad losses for the start of turn 7 AXIS?


Your losses would have to be as bad a losing 6th Army by turn 7 to be worse than historical losses. One of the many things the game does badly is to replicate the actual losses the Axis suffered in the opening weeks of Barbarossa; hence the artificial "adjustment" made during the first 4 turns of the Blizzard.

Only when you get to 1942 will you start to see the real impact of losses, and you will have to decide how long to attack for and then have enough men to last through 3 years of defending.

Personally I stop attacking when on map and pool German manpower drops below 3.3m. This had not happened by turn 80 when my last game ended although it was pretty close.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 7
RE: Losses & replacements - 4/10/2012 5:27:37 PM   
Denniss

 

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From: Germany, Hannover (region)
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Oversize reduction of elements is also shown as returning manpower and equipment.
Oversize reduction kicks in if a component TOE of a unit is above 125% of the TOE for this unit.

Example: In October 1943 you'll see a lot of returning manpower/equipment for germany as their infantry divisions upgrade to the 1944 infantry division. The 50mm light mortar component is drastically reduced by not removed. Over several turns the oversize reduction kicks in until the 50mm mortar component is at at maximum of 125% of its TOE.

(in reply to BigAnorak)
Post #: 8
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