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RE: Extended Lvov

 
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RE: Extended Lvov - 4/20/2012 10:05:39 AM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T
People play games for many reasons. Personally, I just don't get why people who are 100% historical sticklers play these games. They are never going to be happy. I don't even know what they are trying to achieve. Because it seems unless the exact same historical result is reached they claim 'the game is broken'.


I think you misread people there. It is not about getting the same results out, that would be a reproduction or reenactment. It is about have different options and different courses, but have them within the realms of the realistically possible. The issue is that within the 3 days the 1st turn represents, the defender only sits idle, while the Axis can bypass and cause havoc. And we all know that particularly AGS found a somewhat prepared, and fiercely fighting opponent that delayed progress a lot. No way the defender should be watching with not at least a single unit moved into the path, or a counterattack here or there. If it would not be for the huge implications that Lvov has, it would probably not worth a discussion, but it is as much a game changer as two or three random mud turns would be for Axis.

However, some of the other points are surely one I'd also hope to see evolve in the next titles. The ZOC thing I find particularly funny. The issue with the static defender and all that derives from that just ranks higher in my list. There is a lot of potential to develop the future titles, and with some luck we may still get some retrofits.

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 61
RE: Extended Lvov - 4/20/2012 7:13:55 PM   
Flaviusx


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Michael T, that list of fluff and nonsense you laid out doesn't change the fact that right now it is entirely possible for an Axis player to do very well without muling or that crazy Lvov opening. Leningrad falls every game more or less, and Moscow is falling as often as not. From this position the German is well set up to get at least a draw and possibly a marginal victory.

But that's not enough for you, you are looking for an outright win in 1941. This simply shouldn't happen given two equal players.

I got absolutely zilch from that list on how to respond to your optimizations. It's just propaganda. I challenge you to do the following: play yourself solo, and see how well you can do as the Soviets against your own Germans. You will do no better than any of your past Soviet opponents.

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Post #: 62
RE: Extended Lvov - 4/20/2012 7:36:35 PM   
Encircled


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There was me thinking that one of the big pleasures of playing such a massive wargame was that it would actually take up a lot of your time, and you would enjoy it.

I don't know of any Russian player who would enjoy a game, knowing full well that he was going to lose at the start.

Using this guarantees that.

Massive difference in enjoyment between losing in early '42 as the Russians, and losing as Germany in '45 (thats before anyone chimes in with "But Germany always loses")

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 63
RE: Extended Lvov - 4/20/2012 8:24:01 PM   
RCH


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h



< Message edited by RCH -- 4/21/2012 3:05:30 AM >

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Post #: 64
RE: Extended Lvov - 4/21/2012 3:57:38 AM   
Kamil

 

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I think Michael raises few fair points. As much as I like this game I am aware it is full of flaws and his efficiency makes then plainly visible and possibly unbearable. (I used to love WitE, but I am getting tired of its design shortcoming and it simplified logic.)


quote:

Flaviusx

From this position the German is well set up to get at least a draw and possibly a marginal victory.



Don't get me wrong Flaviusx it is not personal attack, but only slight irony. It is very telling, that You are accepting the fact that Germans only should be able to get marginal victory at best, while Soviet can achieve major victory.

I thought both sides should have equal chance of wining game (not talking about wining war by Axis, but wining game by player playing Axis)



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Post #: 65
RE: Extended Lvov - 4/21/2012 7:54:09 AM   
AFV


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamil

I think Michael raises few fair points. As much as I like this game I am aware it is full of flaws and his efficiency makes then plainly visible and possibly unbearable. (I used to love WitE, but I am getting tired of its design shortcoming and it simplified logic.)


quote:

Flaviusx

From this position the German is well set up to get at least a draw and possibly a marginal victory.




Don't get me wrong Flaviusx it is not personal attack, but only slight irony. It is very telling, that You are accepting the fact that Germans only should be able to get marginal victory at best, while Soviet can achieve major victory.

I thought both sides should have equal chance of wining game (not talking about wining war by Axis, but wining game by player playing Axis)





This is a very good point.

(in reply to Kamil)
Post #: 66
RE: Extended Lvov - 4/21/2012 8:28:15 AM   
Flaviusx


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Kamil between two equal opponents and given a well balanced game system and VP conditions...yes, draws are what you want from a design standpoint. Not blowouts.

What is telling is that some people want the blowouts.



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Post #: 67
RE: Extended Lvov - 4/21/2012 9:54:53 AM   
redmarkus4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: matt.buttsworth

Hello Everyone,

I restate my point.
Unless the Russians have a limited ability to move on June 15 (such an early opening already exists in War in the Pacific in the allied turn before the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor) so that the Germans do not know the exact disposition of their forces on the first turn this game will suffer as the German attack on the first move becomes ever more devastating as it is based upon total perfect knowledge of Russian disposition which did not exist in real life.
It is a flaw which the designers of the game need to fix by offering an optional June 15 scenario.

Matthew Buttsworth


+1

Not to mention the fact that:

1. The notion of real life Axis panzer regiments driving all alone down to the Romanian border in the first week of operations is nonsense.
2. The idea that the Romanian army can suddenly 'activate' just because a few Axis tanks turn up next to them (ignoring all logistical rules of war, command and control factors and political decision making) is just piling even more nonsense on top.

Please stop the madness and fix the game!!!

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Post #: 68
RE: Extended Lvov - 4/21/2012 5:20:28 PM   
Iota

 

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To "fix the game" the developers need to know how many and which units you want to save.

Maybe you can present a list of units that should be able to run behind the dnepr

I have no problem to play without lvovpocket and also without HQups.
But to compensate this, the Axis need something against "running" sovs.
E.g. better logistic depending on how far away the nearest enemy hex is (railhead) or the chance to destroy more factories.

< Message edited by Iota -- 4/21/2012 5:33:39 PM >

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Post #: 69
RE: Extended Lvov - 4/21/2012 7:49:44 PM   
gids

 

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...seriously..better logistics for the germans....most games already prove the germans can easily do with the current logistics,you will not see a lot of AAR after 43,simply because most russians gave up then,most of the time leningrad  and moscou are taken,and the germans are past rostov then and have taken tons of industry ,atm im playing another GC as russian and he didnt do the lyovpocket,he doesnt mule grind and all that other stuff and its a pretty balancend game so far ,hes still getting dam fast forward but thats because i retreat fast  i think

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Post #: 70
RE: Extended Lvov - 4/21/2012 8:45:21 PM   
Iota

 

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You are right. Logistic is ok, but only if no partisans or paratroopers stop a whole AG for 2 turns.
I suggest a penalty for running sovs in exchange for no HQup and no lvovpocket.
I just want to stop this running, on both sides (blizzard). In this context we also need to rethink the balancing of moral.

and gids....seriously....if you still lose tons of industry (without muling), you do something wrong.

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Post #: 71
RE: Extended Lvov - 4/21/2012 9:04:24 PM   
gids

 

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nah atm it seems to be ok ,i can move everything in time atm but were only turn 5 :p

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RE: Extended Lvov - 4/21/2012 9:14:54 PM   
vicberg

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Michael, you do not need to mule in order to make very convincing advances in 1941; right now the state of the game is such that Leningrad is practically an autoloss and Moscow is a 50/50 proposition in games where no muling is done.


Flav, I'm going to say this again. Losing Leningrad doesn't matter to the Soviets. In one game, I took Leningrad and Moscow in 41, and I still faced a 8 million man army in 42. Without mules, it's game over for the Germans in 42 unless the Soviets make a serious mistake in 41. By serious mistake, I mean allowing encirclements. As long as Soviets don't allow encirclements, they have plenty of time to pull out industry. So, if the Germans can't encircle or capture cities faster than the Soviet can pull them out, and mules are required for both against good defenses, then it's game over.

3 games. 3 similar results. Other people report games mirroring mine. Many have simply quit playing. I'm getting quite a few PMs about that.

There's no denying this. In spite of Lvov pocket, Leningrad, even Moscow, the Soviets have a huge advantage in 42 if the Soviets don't make a mistake in 41 and the Germans don't use mules. Now, this German opening might prevent the need to mule. But this opening is needed or mules needed to a have a competitive game. Pick your poison.

The game is not balanced.

< Message edited by vicberg -- 4/21/2012 9:25:10 PM >

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RE: Extended Lvov - 4/21/2012 10:37:54 PM   
Aurelian

 

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I'm in Nov 42 in a PBEM. Where is this huge advantage that says "Game over."?

Berlin falls before 43 does it?

Game isn't over. The game is *far* from over.

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RE: Extended Lvov - 4/21/2012 10:57:45 PM   
glvaca

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Michael, you do not need to mule in order to make very convincing advances in 1941; right now the state of the game is such that Leningrad is practically an autoloss and Moscow is a 50/50 proposition in games where no muling is done.


Flav, I'm going to say this again. Losing Leningrad doesn't matter to the Soviets. In one game, I took Leningrad and Moscow in 41, and I still faced a 8 million man army in 42. Without mules, it's game over for the Germans in 42 unless the Soviets make a serious mistake in 41. By serious mistake, I mean allowing encirclements. As long as Soviets don't allow encirclements, they have plenty of time to pull out industry. So, if the Germans can't encircle or capture cities faster than the Soviet can pull them out, and mules are required for both against good defenses, then it's game over.

3 games. 3 similar results. Other people report games mirroring mine. Many have simply quit playing. I'm getting quite a few PMs about that.

There's no denying this. In spite of Lvov pocket, Leningrad, even Moscow, the Soviets have a huge advantage in 42 if the Soviets don't make a mistake in 41 and the Germans don't use mules. Now, this German opening might prevent the need to mule. But this opening is needed or mules needed to a have a competitive game. Pick your poison.

The game is not balanced.


Just a quick question Vic, have you ever played the Soviets?

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RE: Extended Lvov - 4/21/2012 11:44:14 PM   
comsolut

 

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Currently I have two opponents and we have mirror games. Maybe the winner is the one who gets to Berlin first as the Soviets. At least you can say that is fair, until more patches reduce the, I think one poster called it the "steam roller" aspect of the game. I speculate half in jest and half in seriousness.

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RE: Extended Lvov - 4/22/2012 3:31:06 PM   
vicberg

 

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Glav, per your request I posted screen shots of my game as Soviets. Unfortunately, I posted in the wrong thread. Please look at the next WITE leap thread for screen shots.

Comsolut, the games are playing out the same. My games mirror. Other's mirror. Many have just simply quit. The only way the Germans can last into 44/45 is to have a very successful 41. The only way the Germans can have a successful 41 is 1) if Germans mule, 2) the Soviets allow for encirclements.

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RE: Extended Lvov - 4/22/2012 3:39:48 PM   
vicberg

 

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Something needs to be done to address carpets, so that mules aren't required to have success in 41.

1) Either reduce the extreme FOW or provide a probe/recon attack, with less losses, costing 1 MP instead of 2 or more
2) Allow for hasty attacks from multiple hexes into a single hex
3) Provide an overrun capability, so if a deliberate attack nets 80-1 odds, it becomes an overrun costing 2.

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RE: Extended Lvov - 4/22/2012 7:08:22 PM   
Farfarer

 

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I nearly 'ruined' a good PBEM game by dropping some paras onto axis rail lines way over by Romania. Random weather coincidentally produced Mud in an important zone so much of the Ostheer turned yellow or red. So now I have unilaterally self-imposed a house rule on no paratroop operations-as-suicidal-commandos, but only as part of a Market-Garden type Op. Fortunately my opponent made lemonade out of lemons and encircled 35 divisions on another part of the front, and threatened Moscow so I had to Evac Industry to be safe...

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Post #: 79
RE: Extended Lvov - 6/18/2012 2:47:49 PM   
Hermann

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

This is an unfair open from the german.
If any player will do that against me, I'll leave the game.




Had the move used against me. Incredible. I left the game at turn 6 having suffered well over 3 million casualties. Once the Russian gets hit like that turn 1 its a done thing. In the future I'll probably exit the game the moment I see the the move to avoid wasting my time. Lvov Pocket I see as an exploit, but so common its part of the game. this addition absolutely wipes out gaME BALANCE - remember your opponent has signed on for months of play. A cheap exploit at the start of play really shapes the spirit of the game.

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RE: Extended Lvov - 6/18/2012 2:51:41 PM   
Hermann

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

Glav, per your request I posted screen shots of my game as Soviets. Unfortunately, I posted in the wrong thread. Please look at the next WITE leap thread for screen shots.

Comsolut, the games are playing out the same. My games mirror. Other's mirror. Many have just simply quit. The only way the Germans can last into 44/45 is to have a very successful 41. The only way the Germans can have a successful 41 is 1) if Germans mule, 2) the Soviets allow for encirclements.




Lol! you havent played Sveint. A solid german defense with well placed reserves can wear down the russians. Taking Leningrad or Moscow speeds up the process.

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RE: Extended Lvov - 6/18/2012 7:49:59 PM   
heliodorus04


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx


quote:

ORIGINAL: matt.buttsworth

Hello Everyone,

I restate my point.
Unless the Russians have a limited ability to move on June 15 (such an early opening already exists in War in the Pacific in the allied turn before the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor) so that the Germans do not know the exact disposition of their forces on the first turn this game will suffer as the German attack on the first move becomes ever more devastating as it is based upon total perfect knowledge of Russian disposition which did not exist in real life.
It is a flaw which the designers of the game need to fix by offering an optional June 15 scenario.

Matthew Buttsworth


I really don't see how this can work. A free setup is going to massively favor the Soviet unless you've got so many restrictions that it begs the question of how "free" it really is.

My quick and dirty fix: just remove all the surprise turn penalties from the Soviet side. Most importantly the movement penalty. These reckless pockets would be a lot tougher to pull off if the Soviets weren't zombies on turn one. But even that is a bandaid that recommends itself only because it is easy to code. Fundamentally, the surprise turn needs to be reworked from the ground up, and that's not happening.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but Matrix is done with (re)design on War in the East.

This is the game you alpha tested, buddy.
You own this.
Remember, it won a BUNCH of awards!

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 82
RE: Extended Lvov - 6/18/2012 8:06:46 PM   
heliodorus04


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T


People play games for many reasons. Personally, I just don't get why people who are 100% historical sticklers play these games. They are never going to be happy. I don't even know what they are trying to achieve. Because it seems unless the exact same historical result is reached they claim 'the game is broken'. I just don't get it. Why bother putting so much time and effort in to something that you hope ends up being the same result as reality? And then whinge when its not. These same guys will moan on and on when the Axis go further than they did in reality. Like the German high water mark of 1941 was the utmost best that the German Army could have achieved, all game results should be equal to that or less. Funny though these same people are quite happy for Germany to be overrun sometime in early 1944.


I read serious studies of military history to satisfy my interest in military history, not play games. I look at wargaming from a point of it being an intellectual challenge to defeat another intelligent mind on a field that is *loosely* based on a historical conflict. I am competitive by nature and what motivates me more than anything is a challenge.*I am not a win at all costs person*. But I try my best to win *and* have fun doing it. Generally I am happy with a wargame if the outcomes are within the realm of possibility. You have to include player skill here. So what is possible? Really that question cannot be answered. We are all guessing. People will be happy or unhappy with results based upon there own perceptions of what is reasonable.


WITE is not the perfect East Front simulation/model. That will never exist. What we have is a game, loosely based on history. If you want it to be more restricted than what it is, play with a bunch of house rules, but I suspect you will still be disappointed. There are just too many fundamental problems to overcome.


What would I do if faced with this opening and muling? First, I would not be concerned. I would use my superman security regiments and para units to screen my headlong retreat. Delay long enough to evacuate key industry. Don't worry about losing Moscow or other cites. Just get out the industry. If you do that and avoid massive loses, from the blizzard of 1941 on you will be in the drivers seat if you know your business.

But the real question should be how can Germany hope to have any chance of winning the *game* without muling or the Lvov opening? The answer is they cannot. I would bet a very large sum of money that I would beat any Axis player who took me on without muling and the Lvov opening.


I have spent just as many turns playing as Soviet as I have German in game time. But I have spent many many more hours trying to think of ways to make myself more completive when playing as German. I have spent much less time thinking about Soviet tactics as it is not required. They are the much easier side to play. If you want a challenge and some stress play German. For a nice enjoyable relaxing game, play Russian.


Since it has been asked here is what I consider is just as 'unrealistic' as muling and the Lvov opening but on the Soviet side. In no particular order except number one.


1. Top of the list. Being able to run run run to where ever they like. With no repercussions what soever. Without mulng the Russian's can avoid pitched fights and encirclements until they have a huge army that is overwhelming. Totally wrong. The game needs a mechanism to stop this rubbish. Muling counters this to a degree in that they need to run much further much earlier. To wrongs make a right for once :)


2. Super ants. The Sov's can use Security Reg's and Para's to soak up MP's and fuel to delay the German mech units in the first 6 or so turns. This gives the Sov's breathing space that they need with a very small price in units. The game desperately needs and overrun rule to prevent this crap.


3. No real C&C chaos in the Soviet command structure in 1941. Soviet units should have much more severe movement penalties. Some should get stuck and not move at all. Its also way too easy to attack under one Army HQ. There is too much flexibility in the changing HQ's on the fly.


4. Zoc's. This is a real pet peeve of mine. It defies common sense. Why would a 800 man Security reg have the exact same zoc as a stack with 50000 men and 500 tanks. Its totally nuts. This allows for things like checker boards and carpets. If we had a set of over run rules and some proper zoc rules there would be no more checker boards or carpets.


5. Reserves. Sure lets put the whole, entire, I mean every unit, in reserve mode. Its nuts and a blight on the game. Sure it helps Germany too in 43 and beyond but it needs to be fixed. The current reserve rules are way over powered. They are very simple rules, but with a little intelligent thought could be way better.


6. Soviet mech units that can have 45+ MP in 1942. Wrong.


7. The blizzard is still too harsh. Cav units overpowered in 1941 winter. Coupled with the front wide steam roller attack from Stavaka. Wrong.


There is more but that will do. Fix all that up and I would be happy to play without muling or the Lvov thing.

There is a key fundamental flaw in the design of WITE. That is that fuel expenditure is directly linked to MP spent, its linear. On the face of it you think well why not? Well here is an example. Why should crossing a major river in a zoc (might just be a ant zoc) cost around 50-60%% fuel? There are many other examples. But the crux of the matter is that MP expended equals fuel expended. But fuel expended should be equal to miles per gallon or kilometres per litre. If I drive a tank to a river, cross a bridge or pontoon then continue on why would it cost me 10 times more in fuel when not crossing a river? Sure I lose MP to the time lost in crossing but the equivalent of fuel lost is wrong. Same with moving through zoc's. Fuel used should be based/weighted more on hexes traversed rather than MP expended. At the moment its totally based on MP. I know its valid that fuel consumption will increase due to combat manoeuvring and such but there are numerous cases like my example above where the link between MP expenditure and fuel used is too linear.


I find it incredulous that GG creates these complex models and then neglects fundamental and very crucial mechanisms like the fuel/MP link. Its just too simple. No doubt there are many complex formulae used in logistics and combat but if you then end it all with a linear MP to fuel used outcome, what is the point? Its like building a formula one car and racing it on a dirt track.


Like I have said many many times. I am not a fanboy of either side. But playing Germany in *this* East Front game is by far the greater challenge and as such it appeals to me. I wish when playing Russian it was equally challenging but sadly it is not.

Lastly there are other loopholes in this game that I am aware of but have not commented on. I leave those for others to discover themselves. One point here though, I do not spend my time trying to find loopholes in systems, their discovery is merely a consequence of spending time trying to understand how the system works in order to maximise the efficency of the force at hand.


The problem we have is that we are looking at this from many different perspectives. Some guys want a virtual replay of the actual war. Others are more like myself. Many are somewhere else. I accept it for what it is. A game.


That’s all from me on this subject. Of course some people will disagree with my take on it. I expect that. But I am not going to be drawn in to arguing over it. People can play the game however they like. Just be upfront about what you expect at the start and all should be good :)



This post should be required reading.

MichaelT's analysis of the problems with the game are spot on.

The group-think of 2by3 and their beta test team is patently obvious in any reasoned reading of these message boards. It's tons of Soviet whining about anything that Germany can do which produces an advantage, and the justification of anything the Soviet can do by historical anecdote.



(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 83
RE: Extended Lvov - 6/18/2012 9:19:23 PM   
Encircled


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Its not like Michael not to mention any German bias!

I'm amazed that all those AAR's result in Soviet captures of Berlin by '43.

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RE: Extended Lvov - 6/18/2012 10:10:05 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Its not like Michael not to mention any German bias!

I'm amazed that all those AAR's result in Soviet captures of Berlin by '43.


Too many to count.

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Post #: 85
RE: Extended Lvov - 6/18/2012 10:40:43 PM   
timmyab

 

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Yes I'd have to agree with all that.I'm surprised he didn't mention the overly simplistic logistics system though, I thought that was one of his major gripes, it's certainly one of mine.I believe WITW is improving that aspect, (fingers crossed).
Another one of mine is the combat system which conversely I think is overly complicated and unfathomable.I don't mind unpredictable combat results, but I want to have at least a rough idea of how likely any given outcome will be, and after the combat I want to be able to trace exactly what happened.At the very least I want to know the results of the leader checks.
On his specific points:
1.Agree that the Soviets must be forced to defend forward, probably by a combination of C&C induced immobility and end turn VPs at strategically and politically important places.The German armor would also need to have it's mobility curbed to avoid an Axis runaway victory.
2.Yeah, the super-ants are a bit mental (also applies to anti tank brigades to some extent).Ideally I'd like the cost of hasty attacks to correspond to the size of the defending unit.This would also mean more expensive hasty attacks against well defended hexes.
Generally, I think units defending in isolated positions should be more likely to rout.
3.The lack of Soviet C&C chaos is also one of my major gripes.I also think that Soviet units, especially armored units, should have much more bite whenever good C&C allows.
4.Again I'd like to see the cost of passing through ZOC tailored to the size of the defending unit.Sec regiments for instance would have very little or none.
5.Agree.There should be a limit on reserves, possibly relative to the initiative rating of their army commander.
6.Not sure about this.
7.Certainly agree that cavalry is overpowered.A better logistics system would sort out the front wide offensive thing.

Having said all that, the only reason that I've found so many things to complain about is because I enjoy playing the game so much.90% of games I never get into enough to find their less obvious failings.Most of them fall at the first hurdle.



< Message edited by timmyab -- 6/18/2012 10:42:52 PM >

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 86
RE: Extended Lvov - 6/19/2012 12:15:14 PM   
heliodorus04


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Timmy, supply isn't an advantage for the Soviets. While the logistics could be described as "Arcade Mode" they do not favor one side over the other (arguably, given Germany's industrial disadvantage, supply probably gives Germany advantage in 1941/1942).


(in reply to timmyab)
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RE: Extended Lvov - 6/19/2012 1:05:07 PM   
timmyab

 

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I'd say the supply system definitely favors the Germans overall in 41 and 42.The Soviets army's lack of mobility due to low morale, especially in the early years, acts as a natural break on their offensive capabilities.The Germans are only limited by the advance of the rail head.The problem here is that there's no limit to the supply that this rail head can deliver.This is the fundamental problem with the supply system.
Get the logistics system right and that's half the battle won right there.

(in reply to heliodorus04)
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RE: Extended Lvov - 6/19/2012 3:11:13 PM   
Ketza


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Great thread!

I have been watching the game evolve from the sidelines for a few months now since my game with 76mm ended and doing a lot of practice play in my limited spare time. Before Micheal posted his opening I had already figured out how to do a Lvow opening like this without using breakdowns. It is somewhat leaky but allows the Axis player to pocket more on turn 3 then usual.

I do not think it is a game breaker to have an opening like this. Against a skilled Soviet you will still be hard pressed to cause 3 million casualties by winter.

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RE: Extended Lvov - 6/19/2012 3:43:57 PM   
Flaviusx


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Ketza, 3 million by winter isn't very hard nowadays.

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