Play against the AI - waste of time

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Petiloup
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Play against the AI - waste of time

Post by Petiloup »

I might come harsh on this but this is how I feel after playing my second game.

The first one as the Axis I managed to take over the whole of Europe (besides Axis countries, US and British colonies) by 1942.

Then I decided to play as the USSR and let the AI play Axis and Allies.

After taking Persia and Finland I attacked Rumania in early 1940 to get them turn Axis and be at war with Germany.

While Germany was still fighting France I managed to come close to Berlin to be pushed back after the Fall of France. I stabilized the front between Riga, Minsk, Zhitomir and Odessa. Decided to counterattack during Winter 1941 and get back to Pinsk to be then pushed back by German troops appearing in increased numbers. Early 1942 I couldn't believe how many were still coming so I took out the FOW and did some SS... and it was appalling.

North Front was showing 2 big concentration of German troops besides what he had in the front line.



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Petiloup
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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time

Post by Petiloup »

This is in the center of the front:



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Petiloup
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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time

Post by Petiloup »

And the southern front:



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Petiloup
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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time

Post by Petiloup »

Overall the German had at least 3 times more troops then I and this after:

- I had conquered Persia, Finland, Rumania, Slovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria and of course the Baltic states.

- Had advance closed to Berlin, Vienna and took over the whole of Poland besides Dantzig.

- Getting the Siberian troops (ridiculous event by the way as you get a few divisions while those troops did almost tip the balance in Winter 1941 against the Whermacht.)

- Not suffering the Russian Army Temporary Collapse

Not only that but all Panzer divisions and corps were at level 3 and the German had 877 PP left in his pool while I could barely replace the losses I got each turn.

As a reference the Red Army almost collapsed in Summer 1941 losing millions of men and still being able to bring in the front line enough replacements to force Germany to do an offensive in the South instead of on the whole front.

In this game it's the opposite... sorry but that ridiculous.

I know some would say we can balance the game playing at hard level for some countries but if a game can have an historical feel at Normal level taking into account the AI isn't as good as an human then it FAILS!!!

I could play PBEM games but then what's the point of buying a game with an AI.

Speaking of AI this the brilliant strategy of the Allies

1/ attacking Italy with a few troops in late 1941... I thought it was great and would be a relief for the Eastern front... again what a JOKE!!!

This is Italy early 1942, the Allies are getting crushed after almost taking Rome.



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Petiloup
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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time

Post by Petiloup »

There is no British or US Navy to bring reinforcements or fight the Vichy navy captured by Germany (ridiculous again as the French did sunk their own ships instead of letting them fall in the hands of the Germans).

So where is the British and US navy???

They are protecting... Tobruk [X(]

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doomtrader
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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time

Post by doomtrader »

My first question is:
Did you played 1.00 or 1.01
Petiloup
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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time

Post by Petiloup »

which shows as well the British army playing sandcastles in Libya instead of helping fight in Italy [&:]

What about the rest of the Allies? they are aboard ships in... Oslo [&:] [&:] [&:]

Of course there is no German troops in Norway... at all... nothing... zip... nada...[X(]

France is garrisoned by 10 Infantry Division and 1 Panzer Division... and of course the Allies don't think they could invade??? in reality there was almost 60 Divisions in France to prevent an invasion... well of course they are put in a better usage on the Eastern Front.

Of course I could play Allies and USSR and see how long I need to crush the Axis but I just lost my will to play this game for the time being.
Petiloup
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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time

Post by Petiloup »

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

My first question is:
Did you played 1.00 or 1.01
Here is the answer:



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gwgardner
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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time

Post by gwgardner »

Try different levels of play. Play German AI on hard, Russia on normal.

I think all forces are overstrength on normal. I'm only playing on hard from now on.

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doomtrader
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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time

Post by doomtrader »

Actually I'm really happy to see those screens.

Looks like the AI is making amphibious operations.
Probably we should try to learn it not to make such mistakes as the real life allies at Dieppe.
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doomtrader
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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time

Post by doomtrader »

BTW, I just looked at the images only earlier, as I was in the workshop with my car. Now I have read a whole story and I'm really, really surprised that you are unhappy with the AI.

I wonder how would the history looks like, if the Ruskies attack Germans in 1940.
Would the real Germans be able to push you back almost 1000 kilometers?
Damn this AI is not so bad if you read the whole story, what would be your expectations?

Would you like a historical results, after making such unhistorical moves? Come on. Honestly, how many human players would be able to recover after stab in the back, before finishing in France?
johanssb
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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time

Post by johanssb »

Doom,

I could be wrong, but I think his point is that there is no way the AI should have been able to push back as it did, or the AI is receiving too much "help", or something along those lines.
gwgardner
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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time

Post by gwgardner »

Op has a valid criticism about the AI bunching of many units around cities. It needs to be taught to move out from those cities to man a front.

The other criticism that the AI has too many units so quickly is a matter of either tweaking the config files for production, or simply playing on hard or hardest level.

The criticism that the early Russian attack should have crushed the Germans is flawed, because Germany has several advantages early on - higher war economy level, higher war training level, greater SMP level, better commanders, more armored units in being. Plus the Russian still takes the early war shock, reducing its effectiveness, I believe.

I just wish players would quite posting such things as 'playing the AI is a waste of time' or 'multiplayer is broken' or 'uber Panzers ruin the game' and so on, without trying to examine all the many, many, interrelated factors in the game that come into play. And no one seems to remember that in order to really balance the gameplay, it takes time and lots of input from players to get the config files right.

I can't take all the gnashing of teeth seriously, when I have played the game against the AI and against humans, and in many such games have had a great time. My AARs are testimony to that.

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JLPOWELL
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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time

Post by JLPOWELL »

Gary makes some good points as usual. Complaints do however (or can if the Game Company listens) have positive impact and can help improve the game.

Regarding the AI This game has pretty good AI as for a game of this type. That said it is really only adequate for beginners. And is actually quite good for 'teaching' when you first start playing the game. Experienced players will crush it however. This is just a statement not criticism. Developing an effective AI for this type game is extremely difficult. The more 'features' like airborne drops and economics you add the harder it is to develop an adequate AI, actually I am surprised it does as well as it does. Against an experienced player it is pretty weak however. I do see it getting better as I also played Time of Wrath. In any case experienced players will need to find human opponents for challenging games.

Based on some experience I have a few points.
AI is strongest in its 'historical comfort zone' so for a challenge vrs AI play a scenario rather than GC.
The USSR AI is actually not too bad but has simplified strategic and tactical situation compared to Italy or GB however. And of course it 'cheats like crazy' getting 'bonus' reinforcements humans are not granted. All that said USSR AI is the most 'effective'.
Use the difficulty settings I play Hard (human) vrs Very easy AI. (still pretty much crush the AI but its not 'easy')


Room for improvement:
Convoy routing. This is pretty weak and this should not be too difficult to fix.
Garrison those critical cities the AI should ALWAYS keep units in important cities.
Don't abandon the Maginot Line hexes as FR AI "Oops, we got attacked on open ground instead of in our state of the art fortress... 'merde".
I have no idea how but the AI should be better able to 'determine' if it an area should be defensive of offensive it does do this to an extent, but sometimes the 'tide' changes and the AI doesn't 'get the memo'.



"Don’t you think that if I were wrong, I’d know it?"
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doomtrader
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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time

Post by doomtrader »

We just made and I just tested some improvements for AI, but this will need some serious testing.
We have changed the AI to look farther when deciding what to do, so those concentrations shouldn't occur such often. On the other hand such reinforcements can stop the advance of the enemy.


As Gary said, such feedback is welcome and appreciated, as this help us to make the AI better, and more challenging for players.


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Razz1
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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time

Post by Razz1 »

The concentration at Ventspil was supposed to have been addressed and patched for 1.01.

We need to look at that again as Doom had a fix for it.

I see it's 9th of May. That's right after the bad winter effects. The AI may have been sitting and waiting for it to thaw out, as now it can move at full Action Points and attack effectiveness.

I'd like to see what happens in a couple of more turns as the AI should start to break out and move forward.

Weather is a major pain in the butt for the Germans.

The concentrations in the rear may also be effected by garrisoning of cities. That may be problem with the garrison function. The AI likes to cluster around them in other games I've worked with.


You may want to check the events report menu. I'm sure you suffered Russian penalties for collapse and that is one reason why you were pushed back.



I don't see a problem with the AI opening a second front. Even by your own admission they almost took Rome.

There was never a problem in Africa before 1.01. I'm positive it is the effects of supply constraints.
Petiloup
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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time

Post by Petiloup »

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

Honestly, how many human players would be able to recover after stab in the back, before finishing in France?
First of all I need to clarify that this game is beautiful to play, graphically and as a wargame. I love not to be bugged by micromanaging production from steel, coal and whatever other flavors some games are introducing. It's a plain and simple Wargame and I love it for that.

My complain is that it sells with an AI that has no defined strategy or realistic moves.

So to reply to this, I was honestly surprised I could go so far with the USSR against Germany and always expected to be pushed back all the way to Russia. I have no issue with that at all. I was really thrilled by it and one moment I thought I would crumble so I decided to counter-attack during Winter which worked fine at first. My disappointment was just:

1/ Receiving some trinkets from the Siberian front instead the numbers of fresh troops as per history and also they weren't prepared for Winter warfare much more than any other troops.

2/ Being stopped by a Wehrmacht stronger than the Red Army while I didn't suffer any collapse or millions of men being war prisoners. My troops could be qualitatively weaker, no problem with that. But quantitatively this is a non-sense. That I have to play with difficulty level to get an historical game isn't my feel and would be a first time I need to put the AI at hard level to get a chance to win. Usually it's the other way around.
Petiloup
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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time

Post by Petiloup »

ORIGINAL: gwgardner
The other criticism that the AI has too many units so quickly is a matter of either tweaking the config files for production, or simply playing on hard or hardest level.
I would agree with you if I was playing a fantasy game but this is supposed to be an historical simulation so I would agree to play at hard level to balance out playing against the AI (me at hard level and the AI at easy level) but not the other way around as here I would need to have Germany play at hard level to compensate for his abundance of troops. This is a reversed situation and it bugs me.

In my present game with the Allies the German already have way more troops than the French, while in reality it was almost at par with a lower number for the German troops against France, Great Britain, Belgium and Holland.
ORIGINAL: gwgardner
The criticism that the early Russian attack should have crushed the Germans is flawed, because Germany has several advantages early on - higher war economy level, higher war training level, greater SMP level, better commanders, more armored units in being. Plus the Russian still takes the early war shock, reducing its effectiveness, I believe.
Totally agree with that statement and this didn't bug me at all.
ORIGINAL: gwgardner
I just wish players would quite posting such things as 'playing the AI is a waste of time' or 'multiplayer is broken' or 'uber Panzers ruin the game' and so on, without trying to examine all the many, many, interrelated factors in the game that come into play. And no one seems to remember that in order to really balance the gameplay, it takes time and lots of input from players to get the config files right.
Sorry for that but shouldn't a game be tested before being released? if I need to buy a game for it to be played so the producer can tweak the game to perform normally it doesn't feel right. And sorry but here there is a lot that wasn't tested at all.

Examples besides playing the USSR and facing hordes of Huns[;)]

Now playing with the Allies and I see those non-sense:

- Convoys: I can't trace convoys from Great Britain to Suez to supply North Africa, it will go through the Med. I can't but imagine the pain and losses with the Italian navy at first. I would agree on the one to supply Malta or transporting troops to save time but come on, the British navy was smart enough to take the long road to avoid losses.

- Canada: where is it on the map? convoys all come from the South while historically Iceland was seized by the Allies to help controlling the North Atlantic Ocean.

- U-Boats: besides sending them all with the Kriegsmarine on a suicide run I don't see a trace of one in the Atlantic. Historical feel? zero!!!

- Kriegsmarine: the whole of the German navy was send to the door of the British colonies to destroy my convoys... not one or 2 raiders but all of it including Scharnhorst, Gneiseneau, Graf Spee, Admiral Hipper and so forth[X(] Not mentioning the impossibility for them to be fueled to do that trip but they would never do that against the British Navy and never did.

- Sinking the German Navy: so I did send my 6 carriers and a bunch of BB and CA to destroy the Kriegsmarine which I managed to do with Air Strikes from the CV and the kind of surprise screen telling me I hit this and that for 2 HP losses. Speaking of naval battles I must have shot 2 hundreds time at those to score 2 hits maximum... ludicrous. Now there is one German CA left and he evades me all the time with those 25% chance... against 6 CV??? is this a joke? The Bismarck was sunk because of one lucky torpedo from 1 CV. Anyway no more Kriegsmarine.

- Invasion of Norway: what, who, when, where??? Germany declares war and no invasion so I'm taking over with British INF Corps and position the Royal Navy to thwart any invasion. Why declare war if not to invade? any logic?

- Winter War against Finland: I'll post a SS later as Finland already took over part of Leningrad and captured 2 russians cities... come one guys, how can this even be. I rolled over Finland in a few weeks with Russia.

- Western Front: Germany took over 2 hexes from the Maginot Line in Winter 1939 and did nothing till March 1940 and right now there are Belgian troops destroying German divisions each turn. That should make me proud being Belgian but just make me smile as we were rolled over literally. We tried to resist but there was no way we did push back the Germans. See this SS of the front lines in France... unbelievable while there is French INF Corps protecting Brest and Bordeaux.
ORIGINAL: gwgardner
I can't take all the gnashing of teeth seriously, when I have played the game against the AI and against humans, and in many such games have had a great time. My AARs are testimony to that.
Well good for you and no denying the game is fun to play but I'm looking for an historical representation of WW2 which can make me feel I did play something making sense... and that game is just not cutting it for the moment.

I really do hope something is going to be fixed but today I had no fun playing with the German as it was WAY too easy, no fun with the USSR even accepting to have the lower hand for years but not facing hordes of Huns so now testing with the Allies just to have a whole round flavor. So far not looking good. (for info I let the AI handle the French, will try that next).

Again I'm sorry to come hard on this game but this is not a fantasy game, it's an historical game and because of that there can't be such non-sense of declaring war to Norway and never invading as a plain and simple example.

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Petiloup
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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time

Post by Petiloup »

Winter war front [X(] [&:]

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gwgardner
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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time

Post by gwgardner »

Play multiplayer. Enjoy.

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