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Play against the AI - waste of time

 
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Play against the AI - waste of time - 4/5/2012 2:01:17 PM   
Polonthi

 

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I might come harsh on this but this is how I feel after playing my second game.

The first one as the Axis I managed to take over the whole of Europe (besides Axis countries, US and British colonies) by 1942.

Then I decided to play as the USSR and let the AI play Axis and Allies.

After taking Persia and Finland I attacked Rumania in early 1940 to get them turn Axis and be at war with Germany.

While Germany was still fighting France I managed to come close to Berlin to be pushed back after the Fall of France. I stabilized the front between Riga, Minsk, Zhitomir and Odessa. Decided to counterattack during Winter 1941 and get back to Pinsk to be then pushed back by German troops appearing in increased numbers. Early 1942 I couldn't believe how many were still coming so I took out the FOW and did some SS... and it was appalling.

North Front was showing 2 big concentration of German troops besides what he had in the front line.






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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time - 4/5/2012 2:02:10 PM   
Polonthi

 

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This is in the center of the front:






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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time - 4/5/2012 2:02:57 PM   
Polonthi

 

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And the southern front:






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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time - 4/5/2012 2:13:30 PM   
Polonthi

 

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Overall the German had at least 3 times more troops then I and this after:

- I had conquered Persia, Finland, Rumania, Slovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria and of course the Baltic states.

- Had advance closed to Berlin, Vienna and took over the whole of Poland besides Dantzig.

- Getting the Siberian troops (ridiculous event by the way as you get a few divisions while those troops did almost tip the balance in Winter 1941 against the Whermacht.)

- Not suffering the Russian Army Temporary Collapse

Not only that but all Panzer divisions and corps were at level 3 and the German had 877 PP left in his pool while I could barely replace the losses I got each turn.

As a reference the Red Army almost collapsed in Summer 1941 losing millions of men and still being able to bring in the front line enough replacements to force Germany to do an offensive in the South instead of on the whole front.

In this game it's the opposite... sorry but that ridiculous.

I know some would say we can balance the game playing at hard level for some countries but if a game can have an historical feel at Normal level taking into account the AI isn't as good as an human then it FAILS!!!

I could play PBEM games but then what's the point of buying a game with an AI.

Speaking of AI this the brilliant strategy of the Allies

1/ attacking Italy with a few troops in late 1941... I thought it was great and would be a relief for the Eastern front... again what a JOKE!!!

This is Italy early 1942, the Allies are getting crushed after almost taking Rome.






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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time - 4/5/2012 2:15:41 PM   
Polonthi

 

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There is no British or US Navy to bring reinforcements or fight the Vichy navy captured by Germany (ridiculous again as the French did sunk their own ships instead of letting them fall in the hands of the Germans).

So where is the British and US navy???

They are protecting... Tobruk




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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time - 4/5/2012 2:19:41 PM   
doomtrader


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My first question is:
Did you played 1.00 or 1.01

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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time - 4/5/2012 2:20:45 PM   
Polonthi

 

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which shows as well the British army playing sandcastles in Libya instead of helping fight in Italy

What about the rest of the Allies? they are aboard ships in... Oslo

Of course there is no German troops in Norway... at all... nothing... zip... nada...

France is garrisoned by 10 Infantry Division and 1 Panzer Division... and of course the Allies don't think they could invade??? in reality there was almost 60 Divisions in France to prevent an invasion... well of course they are put in a better usage on the Eastern Front.

Of course I could play Allies and USSR and see how long I need to crush the Axis but I just lost my will to play this game for the time being.

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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time - 4/5/2012 2:23:43 PM   
Polonthi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

My first question is:
Did you played 1.00 or 1.01

Here is the answer:






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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time - 4/5/2012 2:58:39 PM   
gwgardner

 

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Try different levels of play. Play German AI on hard, Russia on normal.

I think all forces are overstrength on normal. I'm only playing on hard from now on.

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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time - 4/5/2012 4:51:20 PM   
doomtrader


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Actually I'm really happy to see those screens.

Looks like the AI is making amphibious operations.
Probably we should try to learn it not to make such mistakes as the real life allies at Dieppe.

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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time - 4/5/2012 4:59:44 PM   
doomtrader


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BTW, I just looked at the images only earlier, as I was in the workshop with my car. Now I have read a whole story and I'm really, really surprised that you are unhappy with the AI.

I wonder how would the history looks like, if the Ruskies attack Germans in 1940.
Would the real Germans be able to push you back almost 1000 kilometers?
Damn this AI is not so bad if you read the whole story, what would be your expectations?

Would you like a historical results, after making such unhistorical moves? Come on. Honestly, how many human players would be able to recover after stab in the back, before finishing in France?

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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time - 4/5/2012 5:57:54 PM   
johanssb

 

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Doom,

I could be wrong, but I think his point is that there is no way the AI should have been able to push back as it did, or the AI is receiving too much "help", or something along those lines.

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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time - 4/5/2012 7:27:22 PM   
gwgardner

 

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Op has a valid criticism about the AI bunching of many units around cities. It needs to be taught to move out from those cities to man a front.

The other criticism that the AI has too many units so quickly is a matter of either tweaking the config files for production, or simply playing on hard or hardest level.

The criticism that the early Russian attack should have crushed the Germans is flawed, because Germany has several advantages early on - higher war economy level, higher war training level, greater SMP level, better commanders, more armored units in being. Plus the Russian still takes the early war shock, reducing its effectiveness, I believe.

I just wish players would quite posting such things as 'playing the AI is a waste of time' or 'multiplayer is broken' or 'uber Panzers ruin the game' and so on, without trying to examine all the many, many, interrelated factors in the game that come into play. And no one seems to remember that in order to really balance the gameplay, it takes time and lots of input from players to get the config files right.

I can't take all the gnashing of teeth seriously, when I have played the game against the AI and against humans, and in many such games have had a great time. My AARs are testimony to that.

< Message edited by gwgardner -- 4/5/2012 7:37:37 PM >

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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time - 4/5/2012 8:07:28 PM   
JLPOWELL


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Gary makes some good points as usual. Complaints do however (or can if the Game Company listens) have positive impact and can help improve the game.

Regarding the AI This game has pretty good AI as for a game of this type. That said it is really only adequate for beginners. And is actually quite good for 'teaching' when you first start playing the game. Experienced players will crush it however. This is just a statement not criticism. Developing an effective AI for this type game is extremely difficult. The more 'features' like airborne drops and economics you add the harder it is to develop an adequate AI, actually I am surprised it does as well as it does. Against an experienced player it is pretty weak however. I do see it getting better as I also played Time of Wrath. In any case experienced players will need to find human opponents for challenging games.

Based on some experience I have a few points.
AI is strongest in its 'historical comfort zone' so for a challenge vrs AI play a scenario rather than GC.
The USSR AI is actually not too bad but has simplified strategic and tactical situation compared to Italy or GB however. And of course it 'cheats like crazy' getting 'bonus' reinforcements humans are not granted. All that said USSR AI is the most 'effective'.
Use the difficulty settings I play Hard (human) vrs Very easy AI. (still pretty much crush the AI but its not 'easy')


Room for improvement:
Convoy routing. This is pretty weak and this should not be too difficult to fix.
Garrison those critical cities the AI should ALWAYS keep units in important cities.
Don't abandon the Maginot Line hexes as FR AI "Oops, we got attacked on open ground instead of in our state of the art fortress... 'merde".
I have no idea how but the AI should be better able to 'determine' if it an area should be defensive of offensive it does do this to an extent, but sometimes the 'tide' changes and the AI doesn't 'get the memo'.





< Message edited by JLPOWELL -- 4/5/2012 8:12:03 PM >


_____________________________

"Don’t you think that if I were wrong, I’d know it?"

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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time - 4/5/2012 9:54:15 PM   
doomtrader


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We just made and I just tested some improvements for AI, but this will need some serious testing.
We have changed the AI to look farther when deciding what to do, so those concentrations shouldn't occur such often. On the other hand such reinforcements can stop the advance of the enemy.


As Gary said, such feedback is welcome and appreciated, as this help us to make the AI better, and more challenging for players.



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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time - 4/6/2012 4:05:05 AM   
Razz


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The concentration at Ventspil was supposed to have been addressed and patched for 1.01.

We need to look at that again as Doom had a fix for it.

I see it's 9th of May. That's right after the bad winter effects. The AI may have been sitting and waiting for it to thaw out, as now it can move at full Action Points and attack effectiveness.

I'd like to see what happens in a couple of more turns as the AI should start to break out and move forward.

Weather is a major pain in the butt for the Germans.

The concentrations in the rear may also be effected by garrisoning of cities. That may be problem with the garrison function. The AI likes to cluster around them in other games I've worked with.


You may want to check the events report menu. I'm sure you suffered Russian penalties for collapse and that is one reason why you were pushed back.



I don't see a problem with the AI opening a second front. Even by your own admission they almost took Rome.

There was never a problem in Africa before 1.01. I'm positive it is the effects of supply constraints.

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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time - 4/6/2012 9:43:53 AM   
Polonthi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

Honestly, how many human players would be able to recover after stab in the back, before finishing in France?


First of all I need to clarify that this game is beautiful to play, graphically and as a wargame. I love not to be bugged by micromanaging production from steel, coal and whatever other flavors some games are introducing. It's a plain and simple Wargame and I love it for that.

My complain is that it sells with an AI that has no defined strategy or realistic moves.

So to reply to this, I was honestly surprised I could go so far with the USSR against Germany and always expected to be pushed back all the way to Russia. I have no issue with that at all. I was really thrilled by it and one moment I thought I would crumble so I decided to counter-attack during Winter which worked fine at first. My disappointment was just:

1/ Receiving some trinkets from the Siberian front instead the numbers of fresh troops as per history and also they weren't prepared for Winter warfare much more than any other troops.

2/ Being stopped by a Wehrmacht stronger than the Red Army while I didn't suffer any collapse or millions of men being war prisoners. My troops could be qualitatively weaker, no problem with that. But quantitatively this is a non-sense. That I have to play with difficulty level to get an historical game isn't my feel and would be a first time I need to put the AI at hard level to get a chance to win. Usually it's the other way around.

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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time - 4/6/2012 10:11:53 AM   
Polonthi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner
The other criticism that the AI has too many units so quickly is a matter of either tweaking the config files for production, or simply playing on hard or hardest level.

I would agree with you if I was playing a fantasy game but this is supposed to be an historical simulation so I would agree to play at hard level to balance out playing against the AI (me at hard level and the AI at easy level) but not the other way around as here I would need to have Germany play at hard level to compensate for his abundance of troops. This is a reversed situation and it bugs me.

In my present game with the Allies the German already have way more troops than the French, while in reality it was almost at par with a lower number for the German troops against France, Great Britain, Belgium and Holland.

quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner
The criticism that the early Russian attack should have crushed the Germans is flawed, because Germany has several advantages early on - higher war economy level, higher war training level, greater SMP level, better commanders, more armored units in being. Plus the Russian still takes the early war shock, reducing its effectiveness, I believe.

Totally agree with that statement and this didn't bug me at all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner
I just wish players would quite posting such things as 'playing the AI is a waste of time' or 'multiplayer is broken' or 'uber Panzers ruin the game' and so on, without trying to examine all the many, many, interrelated factors in the game that come into play. And no one seems to remember that in order to really balance the gameplay, it takes time and lots of input from players to get the config files right.

Sorry for that but shouldn't a game be tested before being released? if I need to buy a game for it to be played so the producer can tweak the game to perform normally it doesn't feel right. And sorry but here there is a lot that wasn't tested at all.

Examples besides playing the USSR and facing hordes of Huns

Now playing with the Allies and I see those non-sense:

- Convoys: I can't trace convoys from Great Britain to Suez to supply North Africa, it will go through the Med. I can't but imagine the pain and losses with the Italian navy at first. I would agree on the one to supply Malta or transporting troops to save time but come on, the British navy was smart enough to take the long road to avoid losses.

- Canada: where is it on the map? convoys all come from the South while historically Iceland was seized by the Allies to help controlling the North Atlantic Ocean.

- U-Boats: besides sending them all with the Kriegsmarine on a suicide run I don't see a trace of one in the Atlantic. Historical feel? zero!!!

- Kriegsmarine: the whole of the German navy was send to the door of the British colonies to destroy my convoys... not one or 2 raiders but all of it including Scharnhorst, Gneiseneau, Graf Spee, Admiral Hipper and so forth Not mentioning the impossibility for them to be fueled to do that trip but they would never do that against the British Navy and never did.

- Sinking the German Navy: so I did send my 6 carriers and a bunch of BB and CA to destroy the Kriegsmarine which I managed to do with Air Strikes from the CV and the kind of surprise screen telling me I hit this and that for 2 HP losses. Speaking of naval battles I must have shot 2 hundreds time at those to score 2 hits maximum... ludicrous. Now there is one German CA left and he evades me all the time with those 25% chance... against 6 CV??? is this a joke? The Bismarck was sunk because of one lucky torpedo from 1 CV. Anyway no more Kriegsmarine.

- Invasion of Norway: what, who, when, where??? Germany declares war and no invasion so I'm taking over with British INF Corps and position the Royal Navy to thwart any invasion. Why declare war if not to invade? any logic?

- Winter War against Finland: I'll post a SS later as Finland already took over part of Leningrad and captured 2 russians cities... come one guys, how can this even be. I rolled over Finland in a few weeks with Russia.

- Western Front: Germany took over 2 hexes from the Maginot Line in Winter 1939 and did nothing till March 1940 and right now there are Belgian troops destroying German divisions each turn. That should make me proud being Belgian but just make me smile as we were rolled over literally. We tried to resist but there was no way we did push back the Germans. See this SS of the front lines in France... unbelievable while there is French INF Corps protecting Brest and Bordeaux.

quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner
I can't take all the gnashing of teeth seriously, when I have played the game against the AI and against humans, and in many such games have had a great time. My AARs are testimony to that.

Well good for you and no denying the game is fun to play but I'm looking for an historical representation of WW2 which can make me feel I did play something making sense... and that game is just not cutting it for the moment.

I really do hope something is going to be fixed but today I had no fun playing with the German as it was WAY too easy, no fun with the USSR even accepting to have the lower hand for years but not facing hordes of Huns so now testing with the Allies just to have a whole round flavor. So far not looking good. (for info I let the AI handle the French, will try that next).

Again I'm sorry to come hard on this game but this is not a fantasy game, it's an historical game and because of that there can't be such non-sense of declaring war to Norway and never invading as a plain and simple example.




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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time - 4/6/2012 10:14:56 AM   
Polonthi

 

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Winter war front




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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time - 4/6/2012 12:01:56 PM   
gwgardner

 

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Play multiplayer. Enjoy.

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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time - 4/6/2012 3:34:39 PM   
doomtrader


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We never claimed that the game is a historical simulation, and we always tried to stay away from myths.


Siberian troops brought following units into the game:
First wave:
13, 17, 57 Tankovya
109, 46, 159 Strelkovya
22,24 Armija
Second:
59 Tankovya
99 Strelkovya
Third:
21,26,32,114 Strelkovya
Fourth:
112,113 Tankovya
413 Strelkovya
Fifth:
58,60 Tankovya
78,92,239,415 Strelkovya

If there are any valuable sources which might improve the OOB of those units, please share it.

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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time - 4/7/2012 1:48:23 AM   
Polonthi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

Play multiplayer. Enjoy.

Was sure someone would say that

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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time - 4/7/2012 1:56:59 AM   
Polonthi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader
We never claimed that the game is a historical simulation,

First of all it's a WW2 game so call it something else if you want to play fantasy.

Of course I'm not buying this so that WW2 unfold exactly as it did but if the game can't give you that feel then it's not a WW2 game.

At last I beg to differ as it's advertised that way as being a game that replicates the depth and complexity of this global conflict.

So far this is not true.




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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time - 4/7/2012 1:57:21 AM   
Polonthi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader
and we always tried to stay away from myths.

Siberian troops brought following units into the game:
First wave:
13, 17, 57 Tankovya
109, 46, 159 Strelkovya
22,24 Armija
Second:
59 Tankovya
99 Strelkovya
Third:
21,26,32,114 Strelkovya
Fourth:
112,113 Tankovya
413 Strelkovya
Fifth:
58,60 Tankovya
78,92,239,415 Strelkovya

If there are any valuable sources which might improve the OOB of those units, please share it.

It's not about OOB it's about their efficiency during Winter. At least you could give them better action pts than other units but anyway that's a detail.

In the game the German wins by sheer number of troops. This doesn't give me the replication of the depth and complexity of WW2. It gives me an AI tweaked so it's lack of efficiency is hidden by FOW and cannon fodder.

So as said I'm sorry coming hard but I bought a game that could give me that depth and complexity feel and I just get crap... all around from:

- Production
- Convoys
- AI
- Declaration of war with no follow up
- Kriegsmarine on suicide missions
- Paratroops flying hundreds of miles (read Market Garden and understand the stretch already it was for the most rich army in the world at that time).
- French Navy going German on a Vichy event
- Troop disappearing when a country surrenders (read my next post "Belgian surrenders event not tested")
- Sidi Barrani supplying armies (did you ever went to see what this "town" was???) how can you even think it would supply more than a few camels but it does if you are cut of your main supply lines. I can imagine it's to represent supply dumps... but then just do that make a simulation of a supply dump, not an unlimited amount of supply from tiny specs on the map.




Now you claimed wanting to simplify the game to make it accessible to everyone but then just sell that by stating:

"Time of Fury a game set in the WW2 period. This game isn't a complete simulation of that period but it will give you a beautifully rendered game (and it is, I love the maps and units) that will give you the flavor of WW2 in a simple and elegant design that would overwhelm players.

Anyone looking for a full simulation of WW2 might not get that but they would still enjoy this fact paced and enjoyable game."

But this statement isn't right "to replicate the depth and complexity of this global conflict and only a few have managed to give an all around experience to players."

I played wargames for 30 years now and this is for me an advanced RISK nothing more at least not till you fixed the AI.

On the comment of playing PBEM then true enough this is a FANTASTIC game if it was just that a Boardgame on a computer with no AI.

I don't deny the amount of work and the great value of this game as PBEM or multi-player and once some glitches are solved it would be giving pleasure for players but this isn't what I signed for as I'm mainly looking at playing against the AI when I have the time not to spend with my family so I can enjoy my fix in Wargames.

I was craving for something nice even knowing AI wouldn't compete but here I don't even have that. I would accept more numbers of troops to compensate somehow for quality of the AI but not to that extend.

Also if I play Axis I will win all the time and if I play Allies (GB, US and USSR) I'm sure I'll win each time as well so what's the point?

This is what I mean by playing AI is a waste of time. I don't mind to loose against the AI and in fact I love it as it forces me to revise strategies but I never lost a game in a computer because the Germans were able to muster more troops than the Red Army in the same amount of time.

Anyway hope my comment can lead to a strong overhaul of the AI and the production.

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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time - 4/7/2012 3:10:47 AM   
Razz


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Convoys... Read up on your history. The British supplied through the Med until May 1941 when the Germans could no longer support North Africa. Then the Luftwaffe used Stuka's to force the Brits to go around the horn.

U Boats... they are raiders and avoid detection. You need to search for them. They are in the Atlantic. The game has depth. It has detection. You failed to detect them.

Kriegsmarine... So you are complaining that the AI decided to attack your convoys? I know humans use this strategy too.

Each sea zone is large. A fleet will move and prevent being sunk. Just because it is hard don't complain. What fun would it be to build a ship for two years or 104 turns only to have them killed in any battle they engage in?


Canada... would have been nice but they wanted to make the game simpler. I agree. You can use the Third Reich scenario in order to get convoy shipments from Canada

Norway... That was in the game but they took that out to make it simpler. Not my choice. I agree. See the Third Reich Scenario http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3042300

Winter war. Finland doesn't always get Leningrad. In time I will look at that and improve that area.

Western Front That is normal The Germans were never prepared for war until March 1940. Have you ever heard of the phoney war?

So you play ahistorical take Finland and Persia then attack Germany in 194 and get your ass kicked and pushed all the way back. That is not fun? ? ?

Try the Third Reich scenario


< Message edited by Razz -- 4/7/2012 4:12:25 AM >

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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time - 4/7/2012 3:41:58 AM   
gwgardner

 

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The AI is better for some countries than others. Look at my Barbarossa AAR in the Slitherine forums. The AI whipped me. That was on normal for human and AI.

Nowadays I play only hard for human and usually AI (except for Italy) solely because I want less bloated production.



< Message edited by gwgardner -- 4/7/2012 4:18:40 PM >

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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time - 4/7/2012 8:37:30 AM   
doomtrader


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Polonthi, whats make you think that the Siberian units were better than others? Could you please share some sources?

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RE: Play against the AI - waste of time - 4/14/2012 9:45:11 PM   
JLPOWELL


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Polonthi,

Simulations of this type are pretty challenging to design and implement. By far the most difficult thing is development of an effective AI, particularly without just over weighting the strength. Getting the AI to move intelligently is very complex. I am sure you can see from my posts I don't hesitate to point out faults in this game. You do make a few valid points. That Matrix misrepresented what they were offering is not one however. Except for the USSR the AI is pretty hopeless against an experienced player. It does fill the need for an 'opponent' and when someone is first learning the game it can put up some significant resistance.

An AI which emulates the play of a skilled human player is currently beyond the current state of 'art' in this genre of game. My understanding is they have abandoned (albeit temporary) the attempt in the World in Flames game development. This type of game is vastly more difficult than for example chess for a computer to deal with.

I have gone thru your points below and added some responses. Most of the problems with the game are addressable and this game is evolving. It started as Time of Wrath (which didn't really work for me) and has improved significantly.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Polonthi

quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader
and we always tried to stay away from myths.

Siberian troops brought following units into the game:
First wave:
13, 17, 57 Tankovya
109, 46, 159 Strelkovya
22,24 Armija
Second:
59 Tankovya
99 Strelkovya
Third:
21,26,32,114 Strelkovya
Fourth:
112,113 Tankovya
413 Strelkovya
Fifth:
58,60 Tankovya
78,92,239,415 Strelkovya

If there are any valuable sources which might improve the OOB of those units, please share it.

It's not about OOB it's about their efficiency during Winter. At least you could give them better action pts than other units but anyway that's a detail.

In the game the German wins by sheer number of troops. This doesn't give me the replication of the depth and complexity of WW2. It gives me an AI tweaked so it's lack of efficiency is hidden by FOW and cannon fodder.

So as said I'm sorry coming hard but I bought a game that could give me that depth and complexity feel and I just get crap... all around from:

- Production (not too bad IMO a few too many points available but basically sound - JLPowell)
- Convoys (A problem which is being addressed)
- AI (reasonable expectations are needed here compared with other games of this type - JLPowell)
- Declaration of war with no follow up (AI poorly handles unexpected a Dow 'event' generates an outcome but the AI is not intelligent enough to organize an effective offensive when conditions are not 'standard' or attack 'difficult' targets like for example Norway {for that matter human usually can't take Norway as GE without the event 'either'})
- Kriegsmarine on suicide missions (Both AI and naval rules are weak so AI naval is likely weakest element of the game - JLPowell)
- Paratroops flying hundreds of miles (read Market Garden and understand the stretch already it was for the most rich army in the world at that time). (Air transport is not modeled so the airborne tend to get overused again a tradeoff between playability and realism - JLPowell)
- French Navy going German on a Vichy event (event is a design decision possibly driven by some odds I agree its pretty implausible - JLPowell)
- Troop disappearing when a country surrenders (read my next post "Belgian surrenders event not tested")(a valid point but not a 'game breaker, generally has minimal effect on play - JLPowell)
- Sidi Barrani supplying armies (did you ever went to see what this "town" was???) how can you even think it would supply more than a few camels but it does if you are cut of your main supply lines. I can imagine it's to represent supply dumps... but then just do that make a simulation of a supply dump, not an unlimited amount of supply from tiny specs on the map.(Supply from cities was done to keep the game simple it does lead to some anachronisms where small towns are depicted I have been there and there is water and a road and supplies could be landed by by sea, but thats true for just about the whole coastline in that area 9 pts of intrinsic supply seems to much IMO That said there are many small ports etc not represented for simplicity {Mas Matruh is nearby and much larger for example] Supply is another difficult area, attempting to simulate it in detail would burden the game with a lot of complexity. - JLPowell)




Now you claimed wanting to simplify the game to make it accessible to everyone but then just sell that by stating:

"Time of Fury a game set in the WW2 period. This game isn't a complete simulation of that period but it will give you a beautifully rendered game (and it is, I love the maps and units) that will give you the flavor of WW2 in a simple and elegant design that would overwhelm players.

Anyone looking for a full simulation of WW2 might not get that but they would still enjoy this fact paced and enjoyable game."

But this statement isn't right "to replicate the depth and complexity of this global conflict and only a few have managed to give an all around experience to players."

I played wargames for 30 years now and this is for me an advanced RISK nothing more at least not till you fixed the AI.

On the comment of playing PBEM then true enough this is a FANTASTIC game if it was just that a Boardgame on a computer with no AI.

I don't deny the amount of work and the great value of this game as PBEM or multi-player and once some glitches are solved it would be giving pleasure for players but this isn't what I signed for as I'm mainly looking at playing against the AI when I have the time not to spend with my family so I can enjoy my fix in Wargames.

I was craving for something nice even knowing AI wouldn't compete but here I don't even have that. I would accept more numbers of troops to compensate somehow for quality of the AI but not to that extend.

Also if I play Axis I will win all the time and if I play Allies (GB, US and USSR) I'm sure I'll win each time as well so what's the point? (PBEM is pretty workable some if you can live with a few rough edges re the sequence of play and events - JLPowell)

This is what I mean by playing AI is a waste of time. I don't mind to loose against the AI and in fact I love it as it forces me to revise strategies but I never lost a game in a computer because the Germans were able to muster more troops than the Red Army in the same amount of time.(I will stipulate that the ToF AI is not agile enough to effectively fight a skilled human, But I don't know of any other theater level WW2 game which can do this however - JLPowell)

Anyway hope my comment can lead to a strong overhaul of the AI and the production.


< Message edited by JLPOWELL -- 4/14/2012 10:25:48 PM >


_____________________________

"Don’t you think that if I were wrong, I’d know it?"

(in reply to Polonthi)
Post #: 28
RE: Play against the AI - waste of time - 4/16/2012 7:20:00 AM   
buchand


Posts: 87
Joined: 11/22/2010
Status: offline
I would agree if:
1) there was no modularity via the country difficulty settings
2) any research before buying the game would show that it is not WITE or similar [where a wrong regimental TOE in '42 gives rise to a deluge of posts
3) the developers were not responding to problems by issuing patches [naval war fix please]
But thats not the case and the AI setting, however good it is, will not suit all players anyway. Some will crush the Allies/Axis as soon as they learn the game while others will struggle for months to succeed so reset the AI and get posts from those who can never get past 1942?

I'm still juggling prefeences in WITE to get the balance right for me. The same with TOF and am enjoying both while doing so.
Anyway the fact that it reminds me of a board game on a computer is what attracts me to it - my fingers could no longer cope with juggling thousands of counters and with 4 cats would never get past turn 3



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Plan? What plan? Attack!!

(in reply to JLPOWELL)
Post #: 29
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