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Rounding down for 1-plane squadron

 
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Rounding down for 1-plane squadron - 4/3/2012 8:51:26 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 698
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Lima and Toronto
Status: offline

Good afternoon, I have a question related to the general rule of rounding down (throwing fractions) when the system divides an odd number

If I have 20 planes in a squadron and I set the mission to "search" at 50%, and assuming no supply/ support/ weather issues:
I should have 10 planes flying "search" mission and 10 resting

If I have 21 planes; is it correct to assume that 21*0.5 = 10.5 --> 10 will fly CAP and 11 will rest ?

And what if I have only one plane? like those submarine based FPs:
at 50% search: 1*0.5 = 0.5 throwing fractions --> 0 ?

Post #: 1
RE: Rounding down for 1-plane squadron - 4/5/2012 8:51:13 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4520
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
Rather think of it as a dice role per plane with a chance distribution depending on your settings.

So if you have a 20 plane unit and have 50% set to search, it would look similar to this:

Plane 1: IF rnd(100) > 50 THEN fly search mission
Plane 2: IF rnd(100) > 50 THEN fly search mission
Plane 3: IF rnd(100) > 50 THEN fly search mission
.
.
.
Plane 20: IF rnd(100) > 50 THEN fly search mission
Plane 21: IF rnd(100) > 50 THEN fly search mission

Answers all three of your questions at once.

PS: I am not completely sure if the above is correct as I do not have access to the code, but from observations
it pretty much looks like this is the explanation.

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)
Post #: 2
RE: Rounding down for 1-plane squadron - 4/5/2012 3:43:51 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 698
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Lima and Toronto
Status: offline
thanks for the answer.

this means that a particular bad roll for CAP and I'll get few or no planes flying CAP instead of the 30% or 40% I usually set

and that for ship-based float planes, due to weather issues (almost always the mission is cancelled), it is better to keep them at 100%, otherwise, I can miss one of the few good weather opportunities by a bad dice roll


(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 3
RE: Rounding down for 1-plane squadron - 4/5/2012 4:46:55 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4520
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
Well, the answer "it is probably more complicated than that" is not satisfactury, but it is about what I can give.

CAP is a mission which takes place over the whole day. It may well be that there are specific checks on the ammount
of planes on CAP duty compared to the percentage settings.
Also be aware that you have two phases (AM, PM) per day, so your single float plane set to 50% NavS has this chance
twice a day.

I know that the example I gave you is not 100% correct. This was just to point out that the game most probably does not
round down or round up per default the way you suggested in your question, except where it is absolutely neccesary.
Probably the correct answer is that 21 planes on 50% CAP might result in either 10 or 11 planes assigned
to CAP duty not counting in external factors.

Whether this is really true you would need a dev or a modder with a very good knowledge on game machanics to answer.

Counting in external factors (such as plane maintenance) the true number will always be lower than 50% of # of planes.

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)
Post #: 4
RE: Rounding down for 1-plane squadron - 4/5/2012 11:40:04 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 3633
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Rather think of it as a dice role per plane with a chance distribution depending on your settings.

So if you have a 20 plane unit and have 50% set to search, it would look similar to this:

Plane 1: IF rnd(100) > 50 THEN fly search mission
Plane 2: IF rnd(100) > 50 THEN fly search mission
Plane 3: IF rnd(100) > 50 THEN fly search mission
.
.
.
Plane 20: IF rnd(100) > 50 THEN fly search mission
Plane 21: IF rnd(100) > 50 THEN fly search mission

Answers all three of your questions at once.

PS: I am not completely sure if the above is correct as I do not have access to the code, but from observations
it pretty much looks like this is the explanation.


LoBaron,

I'm not convinced this is how it works.

Today in digging around the forum to find a relevant thread to someone else's query, I came across the following thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2884834&mpage=1&key=naval%2Csearch?

In post #2, michaelm did not explain the difference in flying AM and PM searches in terms of a discrete dice roll applied to each plane. The way I read that thread, I would answer the OP that a 50% naval search assigment in a 20 plane airgroup leaves 10 planes tasked solely with naval search. The number which would fly in the morning is determined out of the ready number of airframes plus other factors such as weather.

Alfred

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 5
RE: Rounding down for 1-plane squadron - 4/6/2012 9:08:25 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4520
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Rather think of it as a dice role per plane with a chance distribution depending on your settings.

So if you have a 20 plane unit and have 50% set to search, it would look similar to this:

Plane 1: IF rnd(100) > 50 THEN fly search mission
Plane 2: IF rnd(100) > 50 THEN fly search mission
Plane 3: IF rnd(100) > 50 THEN fly search mission
.
.
.
Plane 20: IF rnd(100) > 50 THEN fly search mission
Plane 21: IF rnd(100) > 50 THEN fly search mission

Answers all three of your questions at once.

PS: I am not completely sure if the above is correct as I do not have access to the code, but from observations
it pretty much looks like this is the explanation.


LoBaron,

I'm not convinced this is how it works.

Today in digging around the forum to find a relevant thread to someone else's query, I came across the following thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2884834&mpage=1&key=naval%2Csearch?

In post #2, michaelm did not explain the difference in flying AM and PM searches in terms of a discrete dice roll applied to each plane. The way I read that thread, I would answer the OP that a 50% naval search assigment in a 20 plane airgroup leaves 10 planes tasked solely with naval search. The number which would fly in the morning is determined out of the ready number of airframes plus other factors such as weather.

Alfred


Alfred, as always, thanks for digging up the most interesting and informative threads. Very good info here, didn´t know about the navS range
dependencies on AM and PM phase.

I agree with you that Michael´s response suggests a model where the percentage of planes assigned to a specific mission is calculated based on
total ammount of planes, but as far as I can see this is only an interpretation of a short comment not directly related to the specific questions raised
by Jorge_Stanbury.

If this is the way the game engine handles mission percentages, this leaves the question open in what way an odd number influences results of a 50% setting.
Since my observation is, that on 1 plane squadrons there is no reliable way to determine when the plane will fly with 50% settings (for obvious reasoins I cannot
exclude external factors from these observations) or when it stays grounded, this seems to hint it is not governed by a simple rounded up or rounded down
mechanism.

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 6
RE: Rounding down for 1-plane squadron - 4/6/2012 9:58:09 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 3633
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Rather think of it as a dice role per plane with a chance distribution depending on your settings.

So if you have a 20 plane unit and have 50% set to search, it would look similar to this:

Plane 1: IF rnd(100) > 50 THEN fly search mission
Plane 2: IF rnd(100) > 50 THEN fly search mission
Plane 3: IF rnd(100) > 50 THEN fly search mission
.
.
.
Plane 20: IF rnd(100) > 50 THEN fly search mission
Plane 21: IF rnd(100) > 50 THEN fly search mission

Answers all three of your questions at once.

PS: I am not completely sure if the above is correct as I do not have access to the code, but from observations
it pretty much looks like this is the explanation.


LoBaron,

I'm not convinced this is how it works.

Today in digging around the forum to find a relevant thread to someone else's query, I came across the following thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2884834&mpage=1&key=naval%2Csearch?

In post #2, michaelm did not explain the difference in flying AM and PM searches in terms of a discrete dice roll applied to each plane. The way I read that thread, I would answer the OP that a 50% naval search assigment in a 20 plane airgroup leaves 10 planes tasked solely with naval search. The number which would fly in the morning is determined out of the ready number of airframes plus other factors such as weather.

Alfred


Alfred, as always, thanks for digging up the most interesting and informative threads. Very good info here, didn´t know about the navS range
dependencies on AM and PM phase.

I agree with you that Michael´s response suggests a model where the percentage of planes assigned to a specific mission is calculated based on
total ammount of planes, but as far as I can see this is only an interpretation of a short comment not directly related to the specific questions raised
by Jorge_Stanbury.

If this is the way the game engine handles mission percentages, this leaves the question open in what way an odd number influences results of a 50% setting.
Since my observation is, that on 1 plane squadrons there is no reliable way to determine when the plane will fly with 50% settings (for obvious reasoins I cannot
exclude external factors from these observations) or when it stays grounded, this seems to hint it is not governed by a simple rounded up or rounded down
mechanism.


Agree that it isn't a simple rounding up or down issue when percentages result in fractions of airframes being "assigned" to a particular task. Of course the issue is compounded when one is talking about a single airframe unit.

There are however two hints provided by michaelm as to what happens with integer fractions. The first is found in post #3 of this thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2867518&mpage=1&key=�

The other hint was made in the context of flying night missions where michaelm noted that the checks which include a 25% flying reduction do not apply to squadrons with 3 or fewer planes otherwise those squadrons would never fly as the implication is that they would never return an integer otherwise.

These two hints suggest to me that there is a fallback minimum threshold limit applied to really small units to allow the main assigned mission to be flown. That mission might not be flown on a particular turn as pilot fatigue/airframe maintenance, weather, supply, airfield runway damage etc are then factored in.

Alfred

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 7
RE: Rounding down for 1-plane squadron - 4/6/2012 10:29:52 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4520
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2867518&mpage=1&key=?


You never cease to amaze me, Sir.

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 8
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