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RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Falklands

 
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RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/4/2012 6:40:52 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Empire101


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Normally I would be in full support of the return of any colonial aquisition. Most were gained a the cost of other smaller powers who have a much more legitimate claim.



So you would be happy to see, using this logic, Texas returned to Mexico perhaps?

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

The US did not get involved in the first Falkland war because it in no way served our strategic interest. I like our British allies but that was a wise policy decision then and it is now.


Quite so.
From the British point of view it DOES serve British interests.

Hilary Clinton calling them 'Los Malvinas', in her comments does not help the matter.

And yes, I like and admire our American allies, but in my opinion there is no 'special relationship' between the two countries.
America and Great Britain have different strategic interests, thus it always was and will forever be.




Having seen Texas, I would offer no serious objection if it were given back to Mexico....

Excuse me while I go hide out for a while.

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Post #: 91
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/4/2012 7:08:26 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 23310
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		And I wouldn't necessarily mind if the British / Canadians ransacked Maryland and burned the White House down again. But such 'regional preference' ugliness is not appropriate here, crsutton.

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Post #: 92
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/4/2012 7:17:11 PM   
geofflambert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Weird that we haven't seen any of the resident trolls coming in and taking the side of Argentina yet. They usually frenzy when somebody is dumb enough to chum the waters like this.



I'm really sorry I fell down on the job there, I promise to do better in the future. However, I just can't do it. Silverland never had a real base there. American and British whalers did. The Argentines barely knew it was there. I'm just glad we (the US) stayed out of it and hope we keep it that way.






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 93
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/4/2012 7:18:39 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 12650
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Oh, and Terminus,








Attachment (1)

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 4/4/2012 9:36:44 PM >

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Post #: 94
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/4/2012 9:16:58 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Normally I would be in full support of the return of any colonial aquisition. Most were gained a the cost of other smaller powers who have a much more legitimate claim. However, the Falklands were not inhabited when discovered and settled by the Europeans. It would be a differnt matter if the islands were seized by a colonial power and native population displaced but this was not the case.

I will say this. I don't give a damn who owns it in the end. Does not matter to me. I am just not interested in US troops being projected into another conflict. We have been asking too much of our soldiers as of late and it is beginning to show. They need a big break. And we could well afford to spend a little money elsewhere. The US did not get involved in the first Falkland war because it in no way served our strategic interest. I like our British allies but that was a wise policy decision then and it is now.


Warspite1

Message edited due to inappopriate post, apologies. Its been a civil discussion - unlike last time - no need to up the temperature. Note to self - steer clear of any threads on the Falklands.

So to echo the OP and the subsequent poster. RIP to all the brave servicemen (on both sides) that died fighting for what they believed in. But PLEASE no more; learn from the past and move on....


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/4/2012 10:15:13 PM >

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Post #: 95
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/4/2012 11:46:14 PM   
Sredni

 

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Joined: 9/30/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		How would the situation be different today with the EU I wonder. There was no real unity in europe during the 80's so britain was pretty much on their own. Are there mutual defense aspects tied into the EU? Would they apply to distant island holdings?

I saw this post when it had just started and avoided it then because I figured it couldn't be discussed without politics coming into it, but it's made it 4 pages without lock so I guess it's fine so far. Got me thinking about the differences between then and now.

Argentina has made taking the falklands into a huge internal issue. It's even part of their constitution. And realistically they're just one ambitious general away from going back to two-bit dictatorship with no respect for anything but their own power, so it's not so crazy to think they might invade again.

But looking at just the military budgets and number of armed forces britain overmatches them to a large degree. And if britain as part of the EU isn't alone in defending the falklands then it becomes even more pointless for argentina to try the same tactics.

Would france and germany help britain if argentina invaded again? Are they obliged to through the EU? Would they do so simply to support a fellow country? And without the ebil USSR would the US (or canada or australia) take a side and support britain without caring that they may annoy south america?

Similar thought. There's an island off the coast of Canada that's owned by france. If canada decided to annex that island and france and canada had an armed conflict over it... would the rest of the EU be obligated to help france? (please note, I'm not advocating canada annex Saint Pierre and Miquelon, this is just a similar piece of land with people on it who don't wish to change leaders).

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 96
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/5/2012 1:03:16 AM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 23310
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		In keeping with the social discourse: so that I understand how "British" the Falklands are, is this akin to the same viewpoint about Gibraltar? Obviously, Gibraltar has a much more significant strategic military importance than the Falklands, but do the British "mainlanders" see the people of Gibraltar in the same light with which they see Falkland islanders?

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Post #: 97
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/5/2012 1:18:25 AM   
Captain Cruft


Posts: 3652
Joined: 3/17/2004
From: England
Status: offline 		There is zero chance that any EU countries would aid Britain in any Falklands conflict.

Gibraltar is a bit different from the Falklands in that the inhabitants are mostly ethnic Spanish. I don't know enough about it to say what would happen if any problem arose there.

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 98
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/5/2012 1:39:45 AM   
Cap Mandrake


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

There is zero chance that any EU countries would aid Britain in any Falklands conflict.


What if it were your week to use a shared carrier and some of the French sailors overslept and didn't get off in time? It could then be said the French were helping...that is unless they spent the whole week complaining about the cheesy-hammy-eggs.

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Post #: 99
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/5/2012 4:14:25 AM   
ilovestrategy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

As their population wants to be British, the matter should already be decided. I am convinced the Argentinians aren't interested in another bloody nose.
Though should they try, I'd vote to help the British defend their country.



I'd vote to help. I love my cousins across the pond and won't hesitate for a hot minute to help them out.

And besides, I love Catherine Zeta Jones.



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Post #: 100
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/5/2012 8:50:46 AM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake
quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

There is zero chance that any EU countries would aid Britain in any Falklands conflict.


What if it were your week to use a shared carrier and some of the French sailors overslept and didn't get off in time? It could then be said the French were helping...that is unless they spent the whole week complaining about the cheesy-hammy-eggs.


This carrier-sharing thing must be absolutely hilarious for any US. Well, it is also very amusing for some Europeans. That kind of shows how far the "United States" can be compared to the "European Union". A lot of politicians this side of the pond watch over to the US admiringly, probably wishing for almost anything but the 2nd Amendment, but the EU itself makes little progress. A big paper tiger. If it came to another Falkland conflict, it would be of little help except for some condemning statements. If anyone actively supported the GB, I would guess it just came down to the French. But the Argentinians hopefully won't repeat the same mistake twice.

Btw, there isn't any good movie on the Falkland conflict, is there?

< Message edited by janh -- 4/5/2012 8:52:22 AM >

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Post #: 101
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/5/2012 8:58:02 AM   
CT Grognard

 

Posts: 694
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From: Cape Town, South Africa
Status: offline 		The only one I can really think of is a British TV movie, An Ungentlemanly Act.

There is also a film called Resurrected with David Thewlis, dealing with the case of a British soldier who went missing in the Falklands, was presumed dead, then reappeared a month or two later and was charged with desertion.

(in reply to janh)
Post #: 102
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/5/2012 10:17:38 AM   
Historiker


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From: Deutschland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sredni

How would the situation be different today with the EU I wonder. There was no real unity in europe during the 80's so britain was pretty much on their own. Are there mutual defense aspects tied into the EU? Would they apply to distant island holdings?

I saw this post when it had just started and avoided it then because I figured it couldn't be discussed without politics coming into it, but it's made it 4 pages without lock so I guess it's fine so far. Got me thinking about the differences between then and now.

Argentina has made taking the falklands into a huge internal issue. It's even part of their constitution. And realistically they're just one ambitious general away from going back to two-bit dictatorship with no respect for anything but their own power, so it's not so crazy to think they might invade again.

But looking at just the military budgets and number of armed forces britain overmatches them to a large degree. And if britain as part of the EU isn't alone in defending the falklands then it becomes even more pointless for argentina to try the same tactics.

Would france and germany help britain if argentina invaded again? Are they obliged to through the EU? Would they do so simply to support a fellow country? And without the ebil USSR would the US (or canada or australia) take a side and support britain without caring that they may annoy south america?

Similar thought. There's an island off the coast of Canada that's owned by france. If canada decided to annex that island and france and canada had an armed conflict over it... would the rest of the EU be obligated to help france? (please note, I'm not advocating canada annex Saint Pierre and Miquelon, this is just a similar piece of land with people on it who don't wish to change leaders).

No Chance that there's any european help, or almost no chance!

Germany has just abolished its superb Gepard Flak-Tanks, because we can't afford them any more and other nations should take over that part of the military. The idea is, that every european nation concentrates on one part and other nations complement them.
Unfortunately, Europe is divided. There can't be a unified military action unless everyone wants to. But there's almost no chance that everybody will ever want to. There's hopefully no chance that Europe gets reformed in a way that a EU-comission can force every member to go to war no matter what its parliament and population thinks.

While I am German and while I am in support of GB to defend its souvereignty, there's absolutly NO chance that this finds a majority in Germany. No German soldier will ever help the British to defend the Falklands. Our people doesn't want military interventions with a tiny few exceptions and the politicians hardly ever stand for what they believe but rather for what gives them votes.

So for help for the British, I see only a few nations that might actually help:
- France: They have the balls, the means and they do interventions all the time. Also, their president still has the power to authorize military action without the parliament afaik.
- Poland: Proud of their military past while embracing freedom and being part of the west

But before Germany is a part of an armed response, the British should better count on Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria and Spain.

< Message edited by Historiker -- 4/5/2012 10:18:08 AM >

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Post #: 103
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/5/2012 12:53:30 PM   
Shellshock


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From: U.S.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: janh

Btw, there isn't any good movie on the Falkland conflict, is there?



There was also a BBC movie called Tumbledown starring a future King of England with a speech impediment..


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Post #: 104
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/5/2012 2:47:50 PM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 5101
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

The US did not get involved in the first Falkland war because it in no way served our strategic interest. I like our British allies but that was a wise policy decision then and it is now.




You mean just like we did in Afganistan and Iraq. Oops sorry, we did get involved even though it in now way served our strategic interests. Not a wise decision on behalf of our government.

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 105
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/5/2012 6:48:18 PM   
Encircled


Posts: 1682
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline 		Another here for recommending "The Battle for the Falklands" by Simon Jenkins and Max Hastings.

Not well known is the help that the French (gave the RN a Super Entenard to play with, and blocked sales of Exocet to Argentina) and the USA (satellite photos of both the Falklands the more importantly, Argentinian bases).

Its a potential flare up, but the only solution that Argentina will accept is the wishes of the population of the Falklands being ignored as it doesn't suit them, so its not going to be settled any time soon.



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Post #: 106
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/5/2012 7:55:47 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline 		Have some property in Chile. Spend a lot of time down there, especially up against the Argentine border at Feutalefeu. What the local folks think (on both sides of the border) is totally different from the rhetoric coming from Buenos Aires. Please don't set your little pissant, political, point meters on this issue.


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Post #: 107
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/5/2012 8:05:57 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 23310
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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Have some property in Chile. Spend a lot of time down there, especially up against the Argentine border at Feutalefeu. What the local folks think (on both sides of the border) is totally different from the rhetoric coming from Buenos Aires. Please don't set your little pissant, political, point meters on this issue.



John,

If trouble comes, it won't come from the locals at Feutalefeu or their immediate neighbors across the border. What these locals think is largely irrelevant to potential conflict in the Falklands.

"Little pissant"? Take your condescending tone elsewhere.

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RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/5/2012 8:54:36 PM   
AW1Steve


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Status: offline 		GENTLMEN!!! BEHAVE!!!!! It's hard enough trying to control the "Trolls" without regular , responsible forumites acting like them. Please knock off the cheap shots, snarky comments and personal attacks. We've been able to discuss a very controversal subject because WE HAVEN'T acted that way. Please don't spoil it for the rest of us.

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Post #: 109
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/5/2012 9:28:51 PM   
CaptDave

 

Posts: 652
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From: Federal Way, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Another here for recommending "The Battle for the Falklands" by Simon Jenkins and Max Hastings.

Not well known is the help that the French (gave the RN a Super Entenard to play with, and blocked sales of Exocet to Argentina) and the USA (satellite photos of both the Falklands the more importantly, Argentinian bases).

Its a potential flare up, but the only solution that Argentina will accept is the wishes of the population of the Falklands being ignored as it doesn't suit them, so its not going to be settled any time soon.




The US also provided weather support (the only active role I had in 4½ years active duty -- good timing on my part!).

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Post #: 110
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/5/2012 11:14:42 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
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Status: offline 		True. That was harsh. Sorry.

But you really gotta live there to know WTFO. Lots of rhetoric from folks thousands of miles away. Lots of rhetoric from idiots in funny wide brimmed hats in Buenos Aires. Most folks don't give a rats and just want to go about their business. It's nothing but Chevalier, Pozzi and the rest of the St Ejercito. Don't even begin to say Argentina. It's not. It's not Argentina, it's just a few dudes in the Libertador. Doubt that even Puricelli is seriously on-board.

Don't make the mistake that many people do. Southern half of South America is struggling, but it's truly breaking through. Just hang there for a bit and you will get a real education. This is a part of the world that nobody really knows about, but is poised. Just a few vestiges that need to be swept under the rug.

Btw, I thought Galtieri was an utter pig (but a lot of it was Caseras) and stood on my chair and cheered when the Brits took him down. But make no mistake, I'm a proud resident and proponent of America Sud. More so of Chile, but still.

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 111
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/5/2012 11:17:15 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25388
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		lets argue about what really matters....

SPS values.


What should The Falklands SPS really be???

Stacking limits?

These are the real issues that impact us. And do Harrier Jets require a level 4 airfield at least given their VSTOL capabilities?

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Post #: 112
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/5/2012 11:32:20 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
lets argue about what really matters....

SPS values.

Nik, once again, you put the discussion back where it belongs.

Tried to think of something cute but irritating for SPS, but couldn't find a decent rhyme for Salcepuedes. Oh, well. Woof !!

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 113
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/5/2012 11:44:00 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

lets argue about what really matters....

SPS values.


What should The Falklands SPS really be???

Stacking limits?

These are the real issues that impact us. And do Harrier Jets require a level 4 airfield at least given their VSTOL capabilities?


I would agree totally if Port Stanley were an on-map base. However, as it is off-map, surely the discussion about SPS is academic.

Alfred

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 114
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/6/2012 12:53:11 AM   
crsutton


Posts: 9505
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

The US did not get involved in the first Falkland war because it in no way served our strategic interest. I like our British allies but that was a wise policy decision then and it is now.




You mean just like we did in Afganistan and Iraq. Oops sorry, we did get involved even though it in now way served our strategic interests. Not a wise decision on behalf of our government.



Agreed, and for the most part not a wise decision on anybody's part.

_____________________________

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Post #: 115
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/6/2012 12:53:26 AM   
crsutton


Posts: 9505
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

As their population wants to be British, the matter should already be decided. I am convinced the Argentinians aren't interested in another bloody nose.
Though should they try, I'd vote to help the British defend their country.



I'd vote to help. I love my cousins across the pond and won't hesitate for a hot minute to help them out.

And besides, I love Catherine Zeta Jones.




Yes, I would be willing to die if it could be in her arms...


_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to ilovestrategy)
Post #: 116
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/6/2012 2:29:28 AM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

lets argue about what really matters....

SPS values.


What should The Falklands SPS really be???

Stacking limits?

These are the real issues that impact us. And do Harrier Jets require a level 4 airfield at least given their VSTOL capabilities?



Well you know me ....they should be 2-4 points lower everywhere.

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Post #: 117
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/6/2012 3:17:52 AM   
ilovestrategy


Posts: 3628
Joined: 6/11/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: janh

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake
quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

There is zero chance that any EU countries would aid Britain in any Falklands conflict.


What if it were your week to use a shared carrier and some of the French sailors overslept and didn't get off in time? It could then be said the French were helping...that is unless they spent the whole week complaining about the cheesy-hammy-eggs.


This carrier-sharing thing must be absolutely hilarious for any US. Well, it is also very amusing for some Europeans. That kind of shows how far the "United States" can be compared to the "European Union". A lot of politicians this side of the pond watch over to the US admiringly, probably wishing for almost anything but the 2nd Amendment, but the EU itself makes little progress. A big paper tiger. If it came to another Falkland conflict, it would be of little help except for some condemning statements. If anyone actively supported the GB, I would guess it just came down to the French. But the Argentinians hopefully won't repeat the same mistake twice.

Btw, there isn't any good movie on the Falkland conflict, is there?



I have never heard of a carrier sharing program. Is there really such a thing?

_____________________________

After 16 years, Civ II still has me in it's clutches LOL!!!
Now CIV IV has me in it's evil clutches!

(in reply to janh)
Post #: 118
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/6/2012 3:52:18 AM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 17285
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Chapel Hill, NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

As their population wants to be British, the matter should already be decided. I am convinced the Argentinians aren't interested in another bloody nose.
Though should they try, I'd vote to help the British defend their country.



I'd vote to help. I love my cousins across the pond and won't hesitate for a hot minute to help them out.

And besides, I love Catherine Zeta Jones.




Yes, I would be willing to die if it could be in her arms...




Yum! One of my favorites, and definitely on my short list of "free passes" from my wife if the opportunity were ever there.

_____________________________

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(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 119
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/6/2012 8:25:03 AM   
Encircled


Posts: 1682
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline 		Yes there is such a thing as a shared carrier.

How it works though is beyond me!

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Post #: 120
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